The beginning - the never-ending question...point guard or two guard?

S

swisshh

Starter
#61
#61
Gary said:
Ugh... It was not close to 90% on PG duties that you had in the other thread.. It was a 50-50 split... Ans I have noticed that Evans played a lot better like a burden was lifted off his shoulders..

EDIT: After watching the game yes the ball was in Evans hands most of the game.. The same can go for Wade vs. Chalmers and so on.. But Evans did have a great night.
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Most of the people aren't going to understand what Wade v Chalmers means.

And does anyone understand what I meant by putting Evans in scoring positions to make plays? As opposed to how he was used with KMart?

How many really understand the PG position and are taking part in the discussion? No? Really? Then why are you wasting my time?

If, and I say if loudly, you are a fan and not a cheerleader, the questions of Evans true position is vitally important to the success of his career and that of the Kings. People questioning those pondering this are useless noise. People who can't deal with the question are not really hoping for the best for Evans.

So far we have seen Evans as a combo guard next to a decently functional PG who can play without the ball works. Evans as a PG alone does not. Lebron dominating the ball doesn't make him a PG(though he had those skills before he went poster boy). And if you say it's too early to tell then why bother praising him or discussing him at all?
 
VF21

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#62
#62
swisshh said:
Most of the people aren't going to understand what Wade v Chalmers means.

And does anyone understand what I meant by putting Evans in scoring positions to make plays? As opposed to how he was used with KMart?

How many really understand the PG position and are taking part in the discussion? No? Really? Then why are you wasting my time?

If, and I say if loudly, you are a fan and not a cheerleader, the questions of Evans true position is vitally important to the success of his career and that of the Kings. People questioning those pondering this are useless noise. People who can't deal with the question are not really hoping for the best for Evans.

So far we have seen Evans as a combo guard next to a decently functional PG who can play without the ball works. Evans as a PG alone does not. Lebron dominating the ball doesn't make him a PG(though he had those skills before he went poster boy). And if you say it's too early to tell then why bother praising him or discussing him at all?
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Oh puh-leeze. You're the one whipping the dead horse, dude. As far as wasting your time, the problem is very easily solved. If you, in fact, have that many better things to do perhaps you should just go do them?

I'm very sorry if we mere mortals are interfering with the work of the (tin) gods.
 
U

USNAVY15

G-League
#63
#63
Tonight, against GS, he is a PF. yesterday he was a SG. Most days he will be PG. Its not how big you are, its how big you play and it doesn't matter what position you play, it matters how you play the position. Tyreke is playing the lead(point) guard to start off the game because it is unclear how well adjusted he is to the NBA. He also has the greatest chance of being the best player on the court when the ball is in his hands, and what is good for Tyreke is good for the kings, the sooner Evans puts on the glass slipper, the sooner we move him to the glamour position of.....Shooting Guard!!
 
xyrin

xyrin

Bench
#64
#64
swisshh said:
B-B-B-But... WHAAAAAA
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I'm sick of any praise or excitement generated for/by Tyreke Evans being destroyed by posters like you. Who cares if he is a point guard, a combo guard, or a shooting guard. He is a damn good player, and I don't care what guard position he plays. Stop with the semantics and just enjoy Evans' game.
 
Telemachus

Telemachus

Starter
#66
#66
swisshh said:
Most of the people aren't going to understand what Wade v Chalmers means.

And does anyone understand what I meant by putting Evans in scoring positions to make plays? As opposed to how he was used with KMart?

How many really understand the PG position and are taking part in the discussion? No? Really? Then why are you wasting my time?

If, and I say if loudly, you are a fan and not a cheerleader, the questions of Evans true position is vitally important to the success of his career and that of the Kings. People questioning those pondering this are useless noise. People who can't deal with the question are not really hoping for the best for Evans.

So far we have seen Evans as a combo guard next to a decently functional PG who can play without the ball works. Evans as a PG alone does not. Lebron dominating the ball doesn't make him a PG(though he had those skills before he went poster boy). And if you say it's too early to tell then why bother praising him or discussing him at all?
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It is this kind of condescending drivel that will only serve to drive most everyone on the forum away from you. The truth is that most posters here are very well informed, and many are students of the game and have been for years.

The fact that YOU assume that most don't understand simple fundamentals of the game only prove how little you either read or understand what others post on here on a daily basis. You are more than welcome to give your opinions, but when you start to get a "holier-than-thou" attitude I think you will find more and more people starting to ignor your post altogether.
 
roasthawg

roasthawg

Starter
#67
#67
Are people still mad we passed on Rubio? Evans is a stud combo guard... best case he's a Dwayne Wade. He's a guy who has the ability to create his own shot... that's an elite ability that few in the league have. That's why a lot of us were so happy on draft day when we drafted Tyreke. The league is dominated by the Wades, Lebrons, Pierces, and Bryants. It doesn't matter if you play them at PG, SG, SF or wherever. If you have a player like that you'll have the ability to win a lot of games. That's the type of player Tyreke has the ability to be for us... at least imo.
 
Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#69
#69
Mike0476 said:
Beno Udrih had something to say about the PG position.

http://www.sacbee.com/sports/story/2314433.html

"The staff is making it easy," said Udrih, who had 20 points on 9-of-14 shooting, six assists and just two turnovers. "This year I'm getting an opportunity to be a point guard, to be a leader, to get the guys in the right positions."
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Yes, and he did whenever Reke was out of the game. Last night that was about half of Beno's minutes. When the two were on the floor together it was a different story.
 
Kingfanpaul

Kingfanpaul

Starter
#70
#70
I'm not one who says Evans has to be a 1 or a 2. I like the thought of him and Martin in the backcourt. But if while Martin is gone, Beno and Evans continue to play great like this and we start beating more GOOD teams.......I may jump on the trade Martin bandwagon, that is of course unless when Martin comes back we continue to play just as good with Martin and Reke and the 1 and 2. Although I would still be a little scared of the idea of this due to what Beno did for us last year. I could just see it now....Evans and Beno play great together....we become a good team.....trade Martin....beno turns to doodoo. I just want the best backcourt for us to win games. If that is Martin and Evans, FANTASTIC. If it's Evans and Beno, good also.
 
P

Prince_XY

Starter
#71
#71
Mike0476 said:
Beno Udrih had something to say about the PG position.

http://www.sacbee.com/sports/story/2314433.html

"The staff is making it easy," said Udrih, who had 20 points on 9-of-14 shooting, six assists and just two turnovers. "This year I'm getting an opportunity to be a point guard, to be a leader, to get the guys in the right positions."
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Another one of your BS-excuse for your dismal performance last season, Beno. But I will take it just because you are NOW giving the appropriate effort to win.:p

You were the starter point guard last season, so don't tell us you're getting the opportunity to be a point guard this year, as if you weren't given that opportunity before.

I think the coming of Evans to the team lit up a fire under your lazy butt. That makes you work hard now to prove that you are a capable point guard worth starting in this team. The fact is YOU ALSO HAVE HAD THAT OPPORTUNITY TO BE THE STARTING POINT GUARD LAST SEASON. You could have made a big difference, but you sucked because of lack of effort to win. It showed on your lackluster effort in your games.

Also, I would like to add that Evans playing SG is okay too, since it might make Martin exert his best effort ( especially in defense ) to prove he is still the best option at that position.

Talks of trading Martin because we have Evans as a potential upgrade on SG? Let us continue this all-season long. Let us see if it will continue to lit up a fire under Martin's butt. Martin has been putting a lot of effort on defense as evident on his first 3 games too.:D
 
R

rhythmless

Starter
#74
#74
roasthawg said:
Are people still mad we passed on Rubio? Evans is a stud combo guard... best case he's a Dwayne Wade. He's a guy who has the ability to create his own shot... that's an elite ability that few in the league have. That's why a lot of us were so happy on draft day when we drafted Tyreke. The league is dominated by the Wades, Lebrons, Pierces, and Bryants. It doesn't matter if you play them at PG, SG, SF or wherever. If you have a player like that you'll have the ability to win a lot of games. That's the type of player Tyreke has the ability to be for us... at least imo.
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I will agree that his best case is Wade, albiet a slower, bulkier Wade. Ability to be stronger, but not faster. Wade has elite athleticism, while I think Tyreke has only good athleticism in terms of explosiveness. The drives are the same though. While some rely more on finding gaps and being creative in movement, Wade/Reke guards kind of just go one way, and nudge you out of the way. Less creative, just as effective. His shooting, while good now, will definitely be streaky throughout the season (like wade). His TOs were pretty bad as a full time PG, while they figure to drop w/Beno at the helm in place of martin. Wade is a big TO guy as well. Wade's definitely the worst guy to emulate...
 
NME

NME

Starter
#76
#76
Remember those fears of Tyreke's horrendous, record-breaking turnover trouble?


Jonny Flynn - 3.1 AST / 3.1 TO

Brandon Jennings - 4.4 AST/ 3.1 TO

Tyreke Evans - 3.9 AST / 2.0 TO
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#78
#78
swisshh said:
Most of the people aren't going to understand what Wade v Chalmers means.

And does anyone understand what I meant by putting Evans in scoring positions to make plays? As opposed to how he was used with KMart?

How many really understand the PG position and are taking part in the discussion? No? Really? Then why are you wasting my time?
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I've been watching NBA basketball since around 1961. I think thats around 48 years. Not sure, because according to you I might be stupid and not capable of comprehension. But I digress..Let me answer that last part first. Were not wasting your time. Your wasting your time, and ours.

Simply because we don't happen to agree with you doesn't mean were not capable of understanding your point of view. We just don't agree with it. Or at least most don't. Personally I don't give a damm what you want to call him. As I've said before, back in the old days there was no such thing as a point guard. Or a powerforward. You had two guards, two forwards and a center.

When the Knicks had Walt Frazier and Pearl Monroe, who was the point guard? They were both considered major ballhandlers before coming together on the same team. They did just fine, if fine means one of the best backcourts in the history of the NBA. Who was the point guard when Bill Sharman and Bob Cousy were on the floor together? They both would have been considered Point guards today. They didn't have any problems.

This isn't about what Evans should be called. If we had called him a shooting guard in Utah, would he have had a better game. Was he being held back by being called a point guard. Or is this just about you wanting to be right. And you can't be right unless we just throw up our hands and say, WOW! We've been enlightened. Evans career has been saved.

Make your points and state your case as best as possible. People will either agree or not. It also helps to open your mind and listen. But arrogance and condescension will only turn people off..:cool:
 
F

fnordius

All-Star
#79
#79
NME said:
Remember those fears of Tyreke's horrendous, record-breaking turnover trouble?
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Those never existed. His A/TO ratio has never been a strong selling point for him, and isn't currently, but it's never been "horrendous, record-breaking." I call straw man.

There was fear that the team's A/TO ratio would continue to hover around the bottom of the NBA, because there was nobody left on the roster who'd recently had a decent ratio except for Beno, who we were assuming wouldn't be playing much. But we were obviously wrong about that, just as we were wrong in assuming that players A/TO ratios this year would be similar to what they were last year.

Instead of the envisioned system where Evans would be playing a traditional PG role (while Beno played cards with KT on the bench), we have Beno and Evans sharing the PG role, with a lot of help from (former PG) JT. Even Casspi and Martin have had games with excellent ratios, something they're not known for.

Examples:

-----------------Last year-------------------This year
JT----------------0.61-------------------------6.00 (899% improvement! :eek:)
Martin-----------0.93-------------------------1.86 (100% improvement)
Evans-----------1.07-------------------------1.95 (82% improvement)

The better PGs in the NBA have A/TO ratios of 2.5-4.5, and while neither of our primary guards may get there, with enough help from JT and others, I'm thinking we have a good shot at a decent team ratio this year. And I'm pretty much in awe of Westphal at this point, for pulling that off. I don't know if he can keep it up, but I sure hope he can.
 
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NME

NME

Starter
#80
#80
fnordius said:
Those never existed. His A/TO ratio has never been a strong selling point for him, and isn't currently, but it's never been "horrendous, record-breaking." I call straw man.
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There were a bunch of posts this summer assuming 4+ TO's and barely a 1/1 ratio by detractors and even some proponents (who reasoned that wasn't so bad because it was similar to Wade's early years.)
 
F

fnordius

All-Star
#81
#81
NME said:
There were a bunch of posts this summer assuming 4+ TO's and barely a 1/1 ratio by detractors and even some proponents (who reasoned that wasn't so bad because it was similar to Wade's early years.)
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An A/TO ratio of around 1 isn't record-breaking, there were about 300 players in the NBA last year with something close to that, and some significantly worse. It's only a huge problem if you have a traditional PG doing that -- if Calderon, instead of making 9 assists/gm and 2 TO/gm, made 9 and 9, no team in the NBA would want him.

But the way Westphal's running this team, there is no one person who has to make a ton of assists. This distributes the defensive pressure, since nobody knows where the next assist is going to come from, and makes any one player's A/TO ratio for the night kind of a moot point.

Yes, Evans' A/TO ratio has improved a lot, along with pretty much everyone but maybe Hawes. But the cool thing is, it doesn't matter too much if his ratio never gets up to crack PG level, because of the way the point duties have been distributed. The games in which he gets 7 assists may be rare, but so will be the games in which he gets 4 TO. Ditto for Udrih, JT, and the rest of the crew.

Although I suggested, soon after the draft, that this was the direction Westphal would have to go in (with this roster), I didn't think he could be this successful with it. And for that, I now formally eat some crow. (I'll save some leftovers in case he manages to make it last beyond November.)
 
NME

NME

Starter
#82
#82
fnordius said:
An A/TO ratio of around 1 isn't record-breaking
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There were actually posters throwing around 5-6 TO's, which ranges from almost-unheard-of to record-breaking. On one of the threads I was looking back on recently, you even threw out a worst case scenario of a 5 Ast / 7 TO average and hoped he didn't have 8 TO's on opening night. While you were being flippant, that wasn't too far from the general tenor of the conversation around here in August.

My point being is that there was a time here where it was assumed that Tyreke would be a "turnover machine", and here he is starting off with a better ratio than the two top "true PG" prospects other than He-Who-Stayed-In-Spain.
 
F

fnordius

All-Star
#83
#83
NME said:
There were actually posters throwing around 5-6 TO's, which ranges from almost-unheard-of to record-breaking. On one of the threads I was looking back on recently, you even threw out a worst case scenario of a 5 Ast / 7 TO average and hoped he didn't have 8 TO's on opening night. While you were being flippant, that wasn't too far from the general tenor of the conversation around here in August.

My point being is that there was a time here where it was assumed that Tyreke would be a "turnover machine", and here he is starting off with a better ratio than the two top "true PG" prospects other than He-Who-Stayed-In-Spain.
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5-6 TO a game would be record breaking as an average, yes. But he had 7 in one SL game (and a 1.00 ratio for the summer), and not much better in the preseason (4.7 A/4.0 TO). He WAS being a turnover machine, so expecting more of the same was the logical thing to do. Nobody was predicting the last two wins, either. Westphal's surprising the heck out of us.

But also, I have to say that I'm pretty disappointed at Flynn's game not being very NBA ready. I didn't think that Jennings' was, necessarily, but I expected a lot better of Flynn. I don't know that Evans' ratio would still be better than theirs, were he put into their role on their team, but I don't think we're ever going to know the answer to that...

Rookie A/TO ratios:
Harden 9.5
Teague 5.67
Curry 2.64
Lawson 2.50
Wes Matthews 2.00
Evans 1.93
Jennings 1.38
Flynn 1.00
 
Entity

Entity

Hall of Famer
#84
#84
I have also seen guys get all 10 fouls in the summer league. And players score as many as 40 points in the summer league. Douby averaged over 20. Should we have expected the same on those aspects??? or just when it fits your 4 month long agenda?
 
NME

NME

Starter
#85
#85
fnordius said:
5-6 TO a game would be record breaking as an average, yes. But he had 7 in one SL game (and a 1.00 ratio for the summer), and not much better in the preseason (4.7 A/4.0 TO). He WAS being a turnover machine, so expecting more of the same was the logical thing to do.
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Exactly what I'm talking about...
 
F

fnordius

All-Star
#86
#86
Entity said:
I have also seen guys get all 10 fouls in the summer league.
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Yeah. But he'd had a 1.07 A/TO ratio through 37 college games. Having a 1.0 during SL was just doing what he'd always done.

If a player fouled out of every college game they played in, then fouled out of their SL games too, wouldn't you be worried about that pattern?
 
Spike

Spike

Subsidiary Intermediary
Staff member
#87
#87
I don't care if he shows up as Cindi Lou Who as long as he scores points, and makes his teammates better. Should anything else matter?
Do I need to list my credentials as well to join this conversation?
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#88
#88
Spike said:
I don't care if he shows up as Cindi Lou Who as long as he scores points, and makes his teammates better. Should anything else matter?
Do I need to list my credentials as well to join this conversation?
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Yeah, just who the hell are you..? And how do you come to know Cindi Lou?? When did she get out of re-hab? Please don't tell her where I live..:eek:
 
K

Kingsguy881

Guest
#89
#89
Maybe Evans was a victim of circumstance, rarely playing with teammates of his own caliber so he felt compelled to do it all, hence resulting in more t/o and less assists?

Oh btw, Evans is a winner, so for the most part he almost DID do it all on the teams he played on, willing them to victory by imposing his will on the game. That is baller status.
 
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