The beginning - the never-ending question...point guard or two guard?

[AriesMar27]

Then you need to watch more. C'mon man, you're a Kings fan, I'm a Kings fan. We're Kings fans! Stop ripping on my boy! He's on our side after all.

who's ripping evans? before the season even started i suggested starting him at sg and trading martin... that was before summer league and before the preseason... well before martin injured himself. i accepted the fact that he is on our team and tried to find the best possible situation for him to succeed, at sg.... his best play so far has been with him playing alongside a pg. how anyone interprets whos playing what position is their own business but i thought that evans would be most effective next to a pg and he has been so far.

the only people who are ripping evans are the pro-evans pg people... by assuming that i dont like evans or that i want him to fail is indirectly ripping him... i dont think anyone on this site has said that evans would be a bad player... i even said that he would score 30 points with martin injured and he did... that first game... my issues with evans has more to do with how the rest of the team plays with him than how he plays with himsel... as an individual... im not singling him out, just last week i was calling hawes a wuss... martin is frail and i havent wanted nocioni on this team since day one.....

all of this anti-evans rhetoric is all a figment of your imagination. you just want to argue, i like to argue, so we argue...

 

[Kingsguy881]

Or you want to say things like Evans can't make a layup, and I have seen him make some pretty tough layups with my two green eyes, so I feel the need to defend him. Thats my stance, whenever I see a perceived slight (and unfortunately most of them have kinda been coming from yourself) I am instantly in attack mode and want to point out how wrong that take is.

I just want to see Evans play about 25-30 games and then I think it is safe to say that either he can't be a pg or he has a legit shot at dominating the position. But before he even played one game you adamantly stated that he cannot be a pg, that he would fail. And thats not fair to not even give him a chance. It's ridiculous. I have two kids, and to immediately, as soon as they are born, decide what they are going to do or become is ludicrous. And I see your stance as being very similar to this and I cannot fathom the close mindedness, how you have already made up your mind, without giving him a chance, that he is going to be this type of player, and have this type of career.

Oh, and it is a given that he was going to score 30 soon after Martin went down. Hell, he'll probably drop 40 before Martin comes back.

 

[AriesMar27]

Or you want to say things like Evans can't make a layup, and I have seen him make some pretty tough layups with my two green eyes, so I feel the need to defend him. Thats my stance, whenever I see a perceived slight (and unfortunately most of them have kinda been coming from yourself) I am instantly in attack mode and want to point out how wrong that take is.

I just want to see Evans play about 25-30 games and then I think it is safe to say that either he can't be a pg or he has a legit shot at dominating the position. But before he even played one game you adamantly stated that he cannot be a pg, that he would fail. And thats not fair to not even give him a chance. It's ridiculous. I have two kids, and to immediately, as soon as they are born, decide what they are going to do or become is ludicrous. And I see your stance as being very similar to this and I cannot fathom the close mindedness, how you have already made up your mind, without giving him a chance, that he is going to be this type of player, and have this type of career.

Oh, and it is a given that he was going to score 30 soon after Martin went down. Hell, he'll probably drop 40 before Martin comes back.

duh, scorers tend to do that...

but just as you have seen him make layups ive seen him miss layups. if anyone misses a layup they deserve to be called out on it. i stand by my comment on him not being a pg in the grand scheme of things, that doesnt mean that he will be a bad player. i said that lebron and wade wouldnt be pgs... they still managed to become great players.... not pgs but still damn good players.

 

[M_Barragan]

He's made some really hard takes.... dunno where you're getting at that he can't finish. His scouting report sais the complete opposite.... his greatest strength is his finishing.

I hope he works out at PG with time learning the game. Would really put pressure on other teams back courts with two big guards. Crazy how one can pronounce what someone will and won't be so early. You should get a job recruiting players you obviously have talent far beyond NBA scouts.

Hell even the NBA scouts that said he was a SG and not a PG never went as far as saying he would never be a PG... just that he would have to adapt his game and use his court vision instead of being dominated by his scorers mentality something they were not convinced he would be willing to do...

Your 100% certainty in players is a great scouting talent... what ever you do for a living you are in the wrong business brah.

 

[VF21]

all of this anti-evans rhetoric is all a figment of your imagination. you just want to argue, i like to argue, so we argue...

You two are so cute. You kind of remind me of my little brother and his first girlfriend...

 

[AriesMar27]

You two are so cute. You kind of remind me of my little brother and his first girlfriend...

what did i do? you've known me long enough to know that this isnt the first time that this has happened and it wont be the last. i cant wait until next years draft.....

 

[fnordius]

what did i do? you've known me long enough to know that this isnt the first time that this has happened and it wont be the last. i cant wait until next years draft.....

Maybe you should start a thread where the two of you can bicker without other people having to read it.

 

[Gary]

I agree with most of your analogy. I do think though that an Evans/Martin backcourt is better than lets say, an Evans/Salmons backcourt. At least Martin can shoot the three. And if Evans impoves his outside shot that would make them that much more compatable. Salmons was a driver and a finisher. You had to twist his arm to get him to take an outside shot.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the more Evans improves his all around game, the easier it is for him and Martin to co-exist on the floor at the same time. The biggest flaw to me is Martins passing ability, or lack there of. I'm not saying he can't pass the ball. I'm saying he's not a creative passer, and usually gets himself into trouble when he trys. Which could lend itself to less ball movement. And as a result, less team involvement.

I dunno though.. I don't want Evans to be the only ball handeler on the floor.. If I had a choice I would put him with another PG. It's not a bad thing. You see Iverson went to the finals when he had...... Dang forget his name... Eric Snow lol.. UGH! But Snow was the PG and it took a huge load off of Iverson who had to do the majority of the ball handling duties.. Then you have Blake with Roy, and Chalmers with Wade.. I think Evans could be an equal to either Roy or Wade but he needs to be in their position.

 

[Spike]

I think this thread makes a whole lot of noise about nothing in particular. Could someone explain to me why it matters how we classify Evans? From what I've seen, he looks to involve his teammates and has a great sense of where his teammates are. And darn it, I love the way he goes to the rim - that's some power inside the lane. He's also prone to mistakes, but hey, not bad for a guy 8 games in.
In all honesty, it isn't about labeling players into certain positions, but creating a cohesive unit on the floor with complementary players all knowing their roles.

 

[roasthawg]

I dunno though.. I don't want Evans to be the only ball handeler on the floor.. If I had a choice I would put him with another PG. It's not a bad thing. You see Iverson went to the finals when he had...... Dang forget his name... Eric Snow lol.. UGH! But Snow was the PG and it took a huge load off of Iverson who had to do the majority of the ball handling duties.. Then you have Blake with Roy, and Chalmers with Wade.. I think Evans could be an equal to either Roy or Wade but he needs to be in their position.

Sounds about right to me. Find a niche pg to play alongside of him if you go this route... a defensive specialist who can shoot the 3. Makes the pg position a lot easier to fill and allows the team to put it's resources into upgrading the 3, 4, or 5.

 

[roasthawg]

I think this thread makes a whole lot of noise about nothing in particular. Could someone explain to me why it matters how we classify Evans? From what I've seen, he looks to involve his teammates and has a great sense of where his teammates are. And darn it, I love the way he goes to the rim - that's some power inside the lane. He's also prone to mistakes, but hey, not bad for a guy 8 games in.
In all honesty, it isn't about labeling players into certain positions, but creating a cohesive unit on the floor with complementary players all knowing their roles.

It doesn't matter in terms of Evans being a possible savior to this franchise... it only matters in terms of what type of players we'll look to acquire and place around him in the future.

 

[Nighthawk1]

I dunno though.. I don't want Evans to be the only ball handeler on the floor.. If I had a choice I would put him with another PG. It's not a bad thing. You see Iverson went to the finals when he had...... Dang forget his name... Eric Snow lol.. UGH! But Snow was the PG and it took a huge load off of Iverson who had to do the majority of the ball handling duties.. Then you have Blake with Roy, and Chalmers with Wade.. I think Evans could be an equal to either Roy or Wade but he needs to be in their position.

Agree 100%

 

[DeMoN]

When Martin comes back how about Beno at point with Martin and Evans at the wings (evans covering their 3) And using Evans to cover point when beno goes out. Then releave Evans with Martin putting beno back at point.. Ahh this is confusing just trade someone.

 

[Oprostaj]

It doesn't matter in terms of Evans being a possible savior to this franchise... it only matters in terms of what type of players we'll look to acquire and place around him in the future.

This, along with the eric snow / iverson comment sums up this thread. A lot of us arguing about PG/SG... classifying players are just saying that we need to know what kind of player Tyreke is, where he is most comfortable on the floor and what his tendecies are. We need to classify him in order to know what to put around him. I look at the Wizards... they have a crazy good scorer in Arenas. They also have above average passers in Butler and a so so one in Jameson. Put them together with two servicable big men and voila! Good combo. If they could stay healthy is another story. In our case, we need to know if Tyreke needs another ballhandling guard. If yes, that is Beno. If no, Martin and his 25ppg go back in the mix. Chemistry and roles are important. You can't take 5 25ppg scorers, put them on one team and expect 125ppg. If you put Margin at SG, Tyreke will have to learn how and when to take his opportunities, and when to set up KMart. Or, if we are saying Tyreke can be mini Arenas (hate the comparison, but a scoring athletic SG playing as the PG ((main team ballhandler)) seems like a close one) then put Beno on the floor...

 

[Rookie]

When Marting comes back let West Paul decide what he will do. Let him figure out who plays with who. So far he's doing a good job...I'm not sure if anyone of us in here can say we do better.

It's still the beginning of the season, we'll figure our next move, trade or what have you near the end. Better for discussion during the off season.

I say just relax and watch this team. Their effort alone is driving me crazy. If their opponents play hard, they played harder. Damn I love this team.

It's amazing when you see two to three kings fighting for the ball and almost lose it...LOL. I love that.

Now where's the playoff thread...I need to go join the homer crew.

 

[Oprostaj]

Now where's the playoff thread...I need to go join the homer crew.

It's right above the "Hawes in 3 pt shooting contest!" thread. If you're having problems finding it, look around the "Tyreke for skills challenge lolz" thread.

 

[fnordius]

I've gradually away from my original belief that Evans is just naturally a SG.

Now that BJax has retired, I'm starting to believe that Evans may be the league's smallest PF.

And yes, that's a compliment.

 

[Spike]

A lot of us arguing about PG/SG... classifying players are just saying that we need to know what kind of player Tyreke is, where he is most comfortable on the floor and what his tendecies are. We need to classify him in order to know what to put around him.

Bull.
You don't need to classify him as a PG or SG to define his skillset. A coach (or at least people who make money evaluating Tyreke) can, will, and should, be able to define his skillset and, if he is indeed "the savior" will build around those skills. I can guarantee you that Petrie and Westphal aren't sitting at a desk deciding whether Tyreke should be classified as a PG or SG. There looking at the fact that he likes to drive to the hoop, and therefore probably needs a spot-up shooter at the other guard position to complement him. Having Hawes at the high post, for example, as much as it infuriates people, may actually be a good thing as he can relay passes quite well.
Those are the kinds of decisions that need to be made.

 

[Oprostaj]

Bull.
You don't need to classify him as a PG or SG to define his skillset. A coach (or at least people who make money evaluating Tyreke) can, will, and should, be able to define his skillset and, if he is indeed "the savior" will build around those skills. I can guarantee you that Petrie and Westphal aren't sitting at a desk deciding whether Tyreke should be classified as a PG or SG. There looking at the fact that he likes to drive to the hoop, and therefore probably needs a spot-up shooter at the other guard position to complement him. Having Hawes at the high post, for example, as much as it infuriates people, may actually be a good thing as he can relay passes quite well.
Those are the kinds of decisions that need to be made.

Let me try to elaborate. I don't mean, when I say "classify", for Tyrke to wear a huge chain with "PG" or "SG" around his neck. What we need to do is figure out what kind of player he is. Can he be effective off or without the ball? If yes, can he score without dominating the ball? If no, can he run the point or do you need another ball dominant guard? I can also guarantee you that Petrie and Westphal better figure out where they will slot Tyreke before any other moves are made. With what Tyreke has shown so far, common sense would say that if you put martin and his 25 ppg back in the mix, you have one of the best back courts in the NBA. But, it doesn't work that way... Tyreke has been prone to rookie mistakes, ballhandling difficulties and the occasional trap by the defense. So, when I say classify, I mean as a player. The only reason I use the PG and SG indicators is because that is the clear way to distinguish positions. Tyreke might end up being, like many have said, a poor man's Dwayne Wade. In which case you need a ball savvy guard. Or, maybe all of a sudden he turns into a really athletic Jason Kidd... then you are better off with a scorer. Whatever, the point is we need to know what he is comfortable with, which will take time. But, with each game we get to dissect his game. Because we are fans. This is what we do

 

[AriesMar27]

Let me try to elaborate. I don't mean, when I say "classify", for Tyrke to wear a huge chain with "PG" or "SG" around his neck. What we need to do is figure out what kind of player he is. Can he be effective off or without the ball? If yes, can he score without dominating the ball? If no, can he run the point or do you need another ball dominant guard? I can also guarantee you that Petrie and Westphal better figure out where they will slot Tyreke before any other moves are made. With what Tyreke has shown so far, common sense would say that if you put martin and his 25 ppg back in the mix, you have one of the best back courts in the NBA. But, it doesn't work that way... Tyreke has been prone to rookie mistakes, ballhandling difficulties and the occasional trap by the defense. So, when I say classify, I mean as a player. The only reason I use the PG and SG indicators is because that is the clear way to distinguish positions. Tyreke might end up being, like many have said, a poor man's Dwayne Wade. In which case you need a ball savvy guard. Or, maybe all of a sudden he turns into a really athletic Jason Kidd... then you are better off with a scorer. Whatever, the point is we need to know what he is comfortable with, which will take time. But, with each game we get to dissect his game. Because we are fans. This is what we do

you pretty much nailed it right there.... if he is more of a scorer he will need another ballhandler/distributor. if he is the distributor that some of you believe he is then he should be fine with martin.

i see him as a scorer in the end, kobe is a scorer yet still leads his team in assists but still needs a pg to help out with running the team and spread the floor to give him room to work. if we can somehow find a young fisher to play next to evans; he could do a lot of damage. i know, i know... some of you think that he will do that anyways... but its a team sport and he will need players that compliment what he brings to the table. thats if he is the player that you build around... he could be a poor mans dwayne wade or a rich mans jamal crawford....

 

[Oprostaj]

I don't think we have to worry about the Crawford comparison, altough he is a much better player than people that don't watch him know. he has the ability to be a good defender and distributor, I just don't think he cares. Tyreke will be better than him, for sure. I'm just worried about his jumpshot and and his distribution. I know these things take time, so I'm just looking for constant improvement, however slight it may be. I know i've been pushing for clarification of roles, I just don't want people to think that it's because I want labels on players. It just helps to see how we slot others around him.

 

[Bricklayer]

I don't think we have to worry about the Crawford comparison, altough he is a much better player than people that don't watch him know. he has the ability to be a good defender and distributor, I just don't think he cares. Tyreke will be better than him, for sure. I'm just worried about his jumpshot and and his distribution. I know these things take time, so I'm just looking for constant improvement, however slight it may be. I know i've been pushing for clarification of roles, I just don't want people to think that it's because I want labels on players. It just helps to see how we slot others around him.

Tyreke is better than Crawford here, today.

(And watch this: Tyreke may be better than Kevin, here, today.)

I've tried to explain the class break before. Its distinct, but hard to quantify. There are players that matter. Complete players that play with force and bend the entire other team's strategy when facing them. And then there are guys who are just scorers. And the just scorers don't matter. Never have. Never will. Tyreke's a rookie, he's going to have messy nights, he could stil conceivably not pan out (that conception getting less likely by the game). But he's got the it Jamal Crawford never in his best season had. He already matters in a way Crawford never once did. He's the straw. A messy, rookie straw with some 5-17 nights ahead of him. But the straw. And its just a class break. Up ahead, Roy, Pierce etc. Behind: everybody else.

 

[VF21]

Tyreke is better than Crawford here, today.

(And watch this: Tyreke may be better than Kevin, here, today.)

I've tried to explain the class break before. Its distinct, but hard to quantify. There are players that matter. Complete players that play with force and bend the entire other team's strategy when facing them. And then there are guys who are just scorers. And the just scorers don't matter. Never have. Never will. Tyreke's a rookie, he's going to have messy nights, he could stil conceivably not pan out (that conception getting less likely by the game). But he's got the it Jamal Crawford never in his best season had. He already matters in a way Crawford never once did. He's the straw. A messy, rookie straw with some 5-17 nights ahead of him. But the straw. And its just a class break. Up ahead, Roy, Pierce etc. Behind: everybody else.

I agree with your entire post...and i agree with the comment you made about Evans in your grade thread, perhaps comparing his potential for impact to that of the guy with the killer smile and supermodel girlfriend.

Tyreke not only has it, he may well own it.

 

[Andre87]

once Kevin comes back I think coach can attempt using Reke as sf with Beno at the point trying to get both Kevin and Reke clicking 'cause they clearly didn't play well together so far when Evans was at the point

 

[Grawlix]

I've tried to explain the class break before. Its distinct, but hard to quantify. There are players that matter. Complete players that play with force and bend the entire other team's strategy when facing them.

I heart this statement. Tyreke just affects the game. If you listen closely, the rest of the league is starting to take notice. CP3, and Durant twittered about him. Deron congratulated him. Stephen Jackson said he is a lock for ROY. Don Nelson gushed about him. The kid is special. no doubt.

 

[ZZ-TOP]

This whole thread is useless.
Why there is always a need to trade someone.
There is a plenty minutes to play Evans, Martin and Udrih.
**** the starting job, whatever that means.
It depends on math-ups, nightly form and injuries to pick the right combinations at the right time. And that is coaches job. He is payed to do that. All 3 are young enough to ride them for more then just a year or two. Heck, one of them looks like a franchise player at the moment. So, what is your problem?
You have a guy that can play 1 and some 2 spot (Udrih)
You have a guy that can play 1 and 2 spot easily, and can defend 3 spot a little (Evans).
You have a guy that can play 2 and some 3 spot. While he is 3 on offense, Evans is 3 on defense.
Coach can use them 2 by 2 or all 3 of them at the same time.

Just pick a poison coach, you have plenty!

 

[Oprostaj]

considering this team was the worst in the NBA a year ago, we had a huge turnover in the coaching ranks and added 2 impact players, there is a lot to discuss. Or we could just close our eyes, sing the kumbaya song and hope everything turns out okay.

Brick - I agree he is better than Crawford. i was just trying to make the point that Crawford has the ability to be a complete player. He just doesn't want to be. You can see it in his game. He can score 15 just as easily as he can score 50. I would put him with Carmelo in terms of players that were born to score. Is he as good as Carmelo? Not even close, Crawford never cared enough to expand his game, his body or his mind. He came into the leauge chucking and that's how he will leave. I've just followed him since he was in Chicago, and I always felt bad about how his career unfolded. His fault though. Evans is better than Crawford, because he can impact the game any number of ways. I'm not looking for Evans to score 30. We had that in KMart. I'm looking for him to run the offense, distribute, lock down on D and expand his court vision.

If you look at CP3 or Nash... they guide their teammates around the court. Even if it's not a set play, or if it breaks, they are constantly barking orders, moving players to right spots, the ball is IN THEIR HANDS but they don't stagnate the offense. This is the only fear I have with Evans, and one reason I wanted Rubio (not trying to start conversatio again... just hear me out) THere are players like Fisher, Bibby, good PG that run the offense and can set players up. But then you have players like the aformentioned Nash, Paul, even Rondo is getting up there slowly, that just seem to put everybody in their place - you can almost see that this is what they want to do, what they love to do. That, to me is a pure PG. If Tyreke keeps playing like that though, I won't care what he is

 

[mac]

This whole thread is useless.
Why there is always a need to trade someone.
There is a plenty minutes to play Evans, Martin and Udrih.
**** the starting job, whatever that means.
It depends on math-ups, nightly form and injuries to pick the right combinations at the right time. And that is coaches job. He is payed to do that. All 3 are young enough to ride them for more then just a year or two. Heck, one of them looks like a franchise player at the moment. So, what is your problem?
You have a guy that can play 1 and some 2 spot (Udrih)
You have a guy that can play 1 and 2 spot easily, and can defend 3 spot a little (Evans).
You have a guy that can play 2 and some 3 spot. While he is 3 on offense, Evans is 3 on defense.
Coach can use them 2 by 2 or all 3 of them at the same time.

Just pick a poison coach, you have plenty!

The thread isn't actually about trading someone. Or wasn't intended to be. The problem, sir, is that players have emotions and demands, they may not be happy not starting. Should that be a problem? Of course not, but tell that to people earning millions of dollars with giant egos... There is hope that our team has great chemistry and that our players are willing to make sacrifices for the sake of the team, but again, it's not something you can count on.

Second problem: We also have Garcia, Greene, Nocioni and Udoka at the 3. The problem is not so much with Beno, who is more or less needed to back up at the point. But at the 2 and 3, we have a huge logjam of players. Meanwhile in bigmanland, we have no real big to back up provide rebounding which flutter hawes doesn't do very well when the-refs-pick-on-me JT picks up too many fouls.

Just in case you are wondering, I'm not trying to be sarcastic or insulting on the JT remark. It's really the truth, they do pick on him.

 

[Bricklayer]

This whole thread is useless.
Why there is always a need to trade someone.
There is a plenty minutes to play Evans, Martin and Udrih.
**** the starting job, whatever that means.
It depends on math-ups, nightly form and injuries to pick the right combinations at the right time. And that is coaches job. He is payed to do that. All 3 are young enough to ride them for more then just a year or two. Heck, one of them looks like a franchise player at the moment. So, what is your problem?
You have a guy that can play 1 and some 2 spot (Udrih)
You have a guy that can play 1 and 2 spot easily, and can defend 3 spot a little (Evans).
You have a guy that can play 2 and some 3 spot. While he is 3 on offense, Evans is 3 on defense.
Coach can use them 2 by 2 or all 3 of them at the same time.

Just pick a poison coach, you have plenty!

You conveniently ignore the 4 man logjam at the SF as well, including two of our best prospects, and a guy who swings between the 2/3. You also convenenitly ignore that the veterans we have stacked up at SG/SF combien to average more than $30mil a year in salary -- more than half the cap -- and that's BEFORE we get to the kids behind them, and before we get to the issues of having to start paying these kids in a year or two, free agency etc.

 

[Nikefutbolero]

yup, definitely not a 1..