Hawks @ Kings Game Thread - 11/4/09

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I'm a supporter of our team (other than some really questionable old players) and because we picked Evans I root for Evans. I've bashed Aries and Gary about the whole hate on Evans thing. But after 5 games, I do have to agree with Gary that at this point tyreke evans is not a point guard. With the proper training and development he has the potential to become a guard version of lebron, but so far in all honesty the offense has looked smoother running through Beno.

Now, this doesn't mean that he does not have the potential to be a point guard. I believe that he will eventually become a successful PG and a pretty good one at that, but that it will take a lot of time, possibly several seasons. At the moment I'd rather him focus on making his free throws, layups and then shots in that order. The guy gets to the rim practically at will but most of the time ends up throwing up a really bad shot as if he just wants the ball to hit the board. After which I think he should work on his post up game. The team has talked so much about him being able to post up but so far from what I've seen the very very few times that he has backed down the opposing PG he turns and faces up after 1 or 2 dribbles, and then goes iso again.

From what I've seen, I don't think Evans will ever be able to make those killer passes that the elite PGs make on a consistent basis. I do however, think that with time and as the team gels more he'll be able to make the right plays and become a serious offensive threat even at the PG position.

I don't want to go into whether drafting him was a mistake or not, because the fact is we have him and we should be supporting him instead of tearing him down. Could we have done well with guys like Rubio Flynn or Jennings? Definitely. Does it mean Evans isn't as valuable to us since he hasn't been playing that well? Not necessarily. As many have said, he's only 19 and he is in a tough position to have to learn how to play PG very differently from how he played in college.

Here's hoping that Tyreke continues developing as a basketball player and a point guard and Beno continues the superb (fairly) playing off the bench
 
I feel the same way Mac, but I suggest waiting atleast a minimum of half a season before you decide to give up on Tyreke playing PG. As of right now, we're not competing for anything other than developing. 5 games doesn't help developed anyone.

And Tyreke didn't look at all PG capable last night. Of the two games I'm able to see, he hasn't proven much to me. He made a bunch of mistakes and seems to try too hard. I'm not an emotional type of guy so I'm not that pissed but man it was hard to watch.

However, I tried not to let my emotion takes the better of me and give him the benefit of the doubt because he's a rookie. Still early when we still have 77 more games to play.
 
fans are waiting to see whether there is a method to the madness. too many times we've been fooled. Give it time :)

one thing I have to mention. Too many things have been said about Evan's inability to hit layups in traffic. These are things that people in pick up games can do. Evans doesn't look like he even knows what to do once he gets to the rim. It's starting to get scary honestly. Your next superstar should not be learning layups or shooting at the NBA level.
 
K

Kingsguy881

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fans are waiting to see whether there is a method to the madness. too many times we've been fooled. Give it time :)

one thing I have to mention. Too many things have been said about Evan's inability to hit layups in traffic. These are things that people in pick up games can do. Evans doesn't look like he even knows what to do once he gets to the rim. It's starting to get scary honestly. Your next superstar should not be learning layups or shooting at the NBA level.
Ok, this is for everyone on here who doubts Tyreke can improve on all the little nuances and quirks he has shown in his game.

Kobe Bryant. Kobe's first, second, and half of his third season in the league. Kobe couldn't make a layup outside of a wide open dunk, his jumper was horrible, and he took too many ill advised shots. He even airballed a 3 pointer in the playoffs against Utah, and not just any 3 but one that basically sank his team and was a big reason why they lost to Utah. And the sad part was Eddie Jones was wide open when Kobe chucked it up.

Go to www.databasebasketball.com and review players who are really good. Check out their first season in the league. Go to www.yahoosports.com and check out player profiles. Take a look at their game log, see what kind of numbers these players put up in their rookie season. They are NOT pretty. Even CP3's #'a aren't beautiful for his first season in the league.....
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3930/gamelog;_ylt=Aj1P_tqUieXWCAHmVAZtXWkbPaB4?year=2005

Chauncey Billups FIFTH SEASON in the league....
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3174/gamelog;_ylt=ArLSx_p2JfEt_Y9NKGAOjBQpPKB4?year=2000

Just a couple examples, my favorite of which was how Toronto brought McGrady off the bench for 3 years behind VC and ended up losing him for nothing, which is what you folks are proposing we do to Evans. It's quite obvious that Petrie and Westphal know how to run a team and the rest of us really don't.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
fans are waiting to see whether there is a method to the madness. too many times we've been fooled. Give it time :)

one thing I have to mention. Too many things have been said about Evan's inability to hit layups in traffic. These are things that people in pick up games can do. Evans doesn't look like he even knows what to do once he gets to the rim. It's starting to get scary honestly. Your next superstar should not be learning layups or shooting at the NBA level.
Layups no. Shooting = common. It was Magic's weakness, and LeBron's. Parker had to learn it, Jordan and Wade had no 3pt range. Its almost not relevant to superstar potential, because it can be picked up. The dominant physicality on the drive and post can not.

The layups puzzle me a little bit since Reke looks fully dominant on the drive and that has obviously been his game for a long time. You would think the two would just develop together.
 

Capt. Factorial

trifolium contra tempestatem subrigere certum est
Staff member
The layups puzzle me a little bit since Reke looks fully dominant on the drive and that has obviously been his game for a long time. You would think the two would just develop together.
He looks like he's not getting much elevation - he's 6'5" with very long arms yet seems to only be able to dunk under the most favorable of circumstances. This season I think he got one dunk on a breakaway, and one on an open basket during a dead-ball, but aside from that, nothing I can remember. I don't particularly remember that being a problem of his in college, so I wonder if he's nursing some sort of injury (outside of the recent ankle). If he's lost lift for some reason, when he gets it back I'd expect the layup accuracy to come along with.
 
A

AriesMar27

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its just wrong that a 6'6 player with a 6'11 wingspan cant finish at the rim with a layup or dunk... he finishes plays like ben wallace, i cringe when i see him attack the basket because there is a good chance that he isnt going to make the basket.

this has become my main concern so far since the season has started. originally it was his passing and decision making but wow... if he were on a scoring spree putting up big numbers due to his size i could understand all of the homerism around here but when the dude cant even make a layup.... damn, i could make a layup... thats all i could do...

i have no problem with scoring pgs... bibby became a scoring pg and he was one of my favorite players, still is... but he knows how to run an offense and can make layups... beno sucks but he can run an offense and make layups, if he couldnt we would still be winless....
 
AM: suggestion.

How about you try to think of some neutral to positive things to say about the team? Not as a one-time thing, but as a regular part of posting?

Admittedly, there is more wrong than right with the franchise ATM, but it'd be nice to hear you say that you liked something -- anything -- about the team.
 
Layups no. Shooting = common. It was Magic's weakness, and LeBron's. Parker had to learn it, Jordan and Wade had no 3pt range. Its almost not relevant to superstar potential, because it can be picked up. The dominant physicality on the drive and post can not.

The layups puzzle me a little bit since Reke looks fully dominant on the drive and that has obviously been his game for a long time. You would think the two would just develop together.


Agreed on the shooting now that I think about it. Here's the thing though, all the players you listed had some sort of dominant trait. Magic had eyes in the back of his head and intangibles you can't teach. LBJ was just a monster on both ends of the court, and had unparalleled athleticism. Parker was a good quick PG that could distribute, even when he first came into the leauge. Jordan and Wade are athletic freaks. Tyreke seems to fit into that "crazy athletic" mold, but he doesn't use it. I'm not hating on the guy, I really hope he gets it, but it's just that you don't really see any plan when he drives to the basket. Almost like he has half of the puzzle figured out. And it's not even that he misses, it's how badly he does. I hope it has something to do with the ankle, otherwise it's just wait and see I guess.
 
Admittedly, there is more wrong than right with the franchise ATM, but it'd be nice to hear you say that you liked something -- anything -- about the team.

There isn't much to like right now, most of his observations are spot on IMO. He may be a pessimist (I'd say realist), but some of you are blind optimist homers when it comes to this stuff. Just cause you don't like his opinion doesn't mean he shouldn't express it...
 
A

AriesMar27

Guest
AM: suggestion.

How about you try to think of some neutral to positive things to say about the team? Not as a one-time thing, but as a regular part of posting?

Admittedly, there is more wrong than right with the franchise ATM, but it'd be nice to hear you say that you liked something -- anything -- about the team.

ive said several positive things about this team... my only gripe so far has been evans inability to play pg and finish layups. 4 page arguments dont break out when i talk about martin, hawes, beno, nocioni or thompson making a mistake on the court... because we all agree with their short comings. but since the pro-evans posters are split on why they are pro-evans everything that i say about him pisses someone off. if he cant run the offense in one game i have someone arguing with me. if he cant finish a layup someone else is arguing with me. if he cant run the offense and then he misses a layup with hawes standing right next to him wide open i get a pm from vf21....

when my day as a kings fan involves watching our #4 pick miss layups and shoot 7-21 then find out that our gm has just signed his 6th sf while we still dont have a back up center and our best back up pf is kenny thomas, how am i supposed to say something positive about this team. the fact that i still show up here everyday and the fact that i still consider myself a kings fan is good enough for me at this point. and we're only 5 games into the season....

blind optimism isnt my thing.... its the atheist in me, i'll believe it when i see it.
 
A

AriesMar27

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There isn't much to like right now, most of his observations are spot on IMO. He may be a pessimist (I'd say realist), but some of you are blind optimist homers when it comes to this stuff. Just cause you don't like his opinion doesn't mean he shouldn't express it...
thank you, thats exactly what i was thinking...
 
We have to remember they kind of opposition he has faced... He is one year removed from highschool. His confrence in college was on the weaker side aswell. He developed his ability to get to the basket... but because of the lack of size and shotblockers never really had to develop craftyness on what to do when he got there.

His finishing game needs work luckliy he shows touch at the basket... what he doesnt show is making the right move and also recognizing what he can and can't do agaisnt NBA class post defenders.

That one layup that he nuked off the backboard was a prime example... he did this because the defender waiting to block him was still between him and the basket. So he went full speed ahead to try and beat him.... issue was the defender was 4 feet from the basket when he tried... no way you beat your guy in this situation and get an angle to flip it up soft without getting your shot blocked.

Let's remember how fast he is going to the basket... the faster you go to the basket the more manipulation you have to do on the ball to slow it down... means a slower release with a 6'10 shot blocker ready to pounce...

He either should have pulled up for a runner, shot a floater, realized nothing was there and pulled out or slowed down a bit to set up JT which he might have been able too. Can't really tell though so I see why he might have decided to go for the score.

Kid was smart though he knew there was a good chance JT was gonna get the rebound anyways since he was the only player under the basket with the only hawk in proximity in the air trying to block him.
 
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Agreed on the shooting now that I think about it. Here's the thing though, all the players you listed had some sort of dominant trait. Magic had eyes in the back of his head and intangibles you can't teach. LBJ was just a monster on both ends of the court, and had unparalleled athleticism. Parker was a good quick PG that could distribute, even when he first came into the leauge. Jordan and Wade are athletic freaks. Tyreke seems to fit into that "crazy athletic" mold, but he doesn't use it. I'm not hating on the guy, I really hope he gets it, but it's just that you don't really see any plan when he drives to the basket. Almost like he has half of the puzzle figured out. And it's not even that he misses, it's how badly he does. I hope it has something to do with the ankle, otherwise it's just wait and see I guess.
None of those players had shooting form as bad as Evans either.
 
There isn't much to like right now, most of his observations are spot on IMO. He may be a pessimist (I'd say realist), but some of you are blind optimist homers when it comes to this stuff. Just cause you don't like his opinion doesn't mean he shouldn't express it...
"Blind optimist homer" ain't me. But I do find it tiresome to listen to hear the same criticisms of players and management relentlessly repeated over and over and over. It gets to be like reading my spam folder. And even in the crappiest of situations, there are positives. Evans is not an NBA-ready PG, fine. Now that we've gone over that a few hundred times, have you noticed JT and Hawes picking up some of the PG slack lately? That's kind of cool. And then there's next year's draft.... *drool*

It's a little variety from the endless, pointless, and completely futile bitching, y'know? It's not as if posting "Evans is not a PG" here, a thousand times, will have even the tiniest impact on reality. All it will do is make this board impossibly tedious to read.

P.S. - Reading "Evans will be ROY" a thousand times would drive me away screaming, too.
 
There isn't much to like right now, most of his observations are spot on IMO. He may be a pessimist (I'd say realist), but some of you are blind optimist homers when it comes to this stuff. Just cause you don't like his opinion doesn't mean he shouldn't express it...
Most pessimist thinks their opinion are facts, that's not being realistic. Reality, it's early in the season. Tyreke is still a ??? on PG/SG. As of right now Tyreke seems to prove he might not be able to be a PG (my opinion still) but the fact is that it's only 5 games out of 82. To make a bold statement, even before regular season like AM27 did, that Tyreke can't be a PG is pure pessimist, not even close to reality. Even in statistic you need 30 points to have a good evalutation of the data.
 
He looks like he's not getting much elevation - he's 6'5" with very long arms yet seems to only be able to dunk under the most favorable of circumstances. This season I think he got one dunk on a breakaway, and one on an open basket during a dead-ball, but aside from that, nothing I can remember. I don't particularly remember that being a problem of his in college, so I wonder if he's nursing some sort of injury (outside of the recent ankle). If he's lost lift for some reason, when he gets it back I'd expect the layup accuracy to come along with.

It's weird... I was thinking the same thing.. In college he was a beast getting to the rim..

But then again that was against college players, and everyone here knows it's a totally different game. Maybe it's an adjustment issue or maybe he just won't be the guy taking it to the rim like everyone thought.. If that's the case then he better learn to shoot a jumper.
 
Silly to say what he can and can't be 5 games into his career...

Who know's he might be a bust or he might be a stud for all we know. It's only been 5 games. He has a better chance of being a Stud at PG though.... purely because of his size and also his limitations in the vertical game.


I have noticed that too... according to the combine he should be getting more elevation then what he has been getting... not to mention in college he was playing above the rim more. Really is interesting as speed and vertical are somewhat related. I mean he was never VC but i've def seen him get higher then what he's been showing.

6'4 barefoot 6'5 with shows as the nba lists it's players. With an 8'8" standing reach. Even with his no step vertical of 28.5 he should still get his hands 4 inches from the top of the shooters square. And with a running start 2 inches over the shooting square.
 
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11,751 in the seats last night in day 2 of Operation Sell Out. Pathetic. Winning cures all I hope.
Looked like about half of that 11k actually showed up.. Niece was at the game last night and she said more people showed up for her high school graduation... LOL :eek:

This begs the question.... Do you think that other guy would have drew fans?
 
...I do find it tiresome to listen to hear the same criticisms of players and management relentlessly repeated over and over and over.
I feel the same way about the redundant criticism of any post that is negative or filled with frustration. I really don't think this site would hold any interest for most people if every post was "wow, I love this team!"

Sadly, but the Kings are the worst team in the NBA until they prove otherwise. It goes to follow then that there is a lot to ***** about. Sure, there is plenty to be hopeful about and many members enjoy sharing that with us. BUT, as this is a FORUM and other people may feel the need to express their frustration from time to time, ALTERNATIVE observations are inevitable. Unless you want to rename this site "Kings Happy Talk - Home of the happiest NBA fans around" maybe we should all realize that different opinions are what makes this site interesting, and enjoy it.

Wow, I love the Kings!
 
Silly to say what he can and can't be 5 games into his career...

Who know's he might be a bust or he might be a stud for all we know. It's only been 5 games. He has a better chance of being a Stud at PG though.... purely because of his size and also his limitations in the vertical game.
Learned lots about his game from my father constantly ramming Memphis BBall down my throat. Not that I wouldn't have watched anyway heh..

I have learned from his short stint in the NBA that he cannot go up against the NBA bigs when taking it to the rim like the college bigs.. Also learned that he needs to stop shooting 3pt shots until he learns how to hit better than 12% or whatever he's at now.. Guys hitting 12% shouldn't be taking more than 1 per game and that's the end of the quarter half court shot.
 
M, it's not just about that. Many of us that are against the Tyreke for PG experiment have based our assumptions (because that's all ANY of us have at this point) on his track record. He was never a full time PG, and even when he ran the point in college he had another G that could distribute if needed. Yes, he played in a weaker conference and had to take the brunt of scoring as well, but the truth is the truth, and the end result is all that matters. He just has not looked good as a PG right now. I really do wish he can become one, because at his size and athleticism he would be killer.
 
Looked like about half of that 11k actually showed up.. Niece was at the game last night and she said more people showed up for her high school graduation... LOL :eek:

This begs the question.... Do you think that other guy would have drew fans?
Non più probabile (Most likely not)
 
Without going into details, Im going to be stuck on the negative (realistic) bandwagon same as AM.

Scores, projected wins aside, this franchise was among (if not THE) worst in the league last year, and its somehow goten even worse.

Ive been a Kings fan for almost 20 years. I will continue to root for the team even tho its going to be hard to do so.

Obviously the fans is where a good chunk of the money comes from. Im starting to get a bad gut feeling that the team could be for sale soon. :(
 
I have noticed that too... according to the combine he should be getting more elevation then what he has been getting... not to mention in college he was playing above the rim more. Really is interesting as speed and vertical are somewhat related. I mean he was never VC but i've def seen him get higher then what he's been showing.
Combine is a great tool, but there is more to sports than just raw numbers. Jamarcus Russell had the greatest combine of any QB ever. What has that translated too? The pros are a different level with everyone being top flight players.
 
I feel the same way about the redundant criticism of any post that is negative or filled with frustration. I really don't think this site would hold any interest for most people if every post was "wow, I love this team!"
Yeah. Whether what one has to say is depressing or uplifting, a little variety is nice, particularly if it's informative.

So I'll make this one informative. Did you know that JT has the second-best assist/TO ratio in the entire NBA?
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/statistics?stat=nbaassists&sort=astto&league=nba&avg=48
 
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