Hawes Need to Develop a Mean Streak

[Kingster]

Hawes Needs to Develop a Mean Streak

I'd like him to start the game with a forearm shiver to the mid-section of whoever he's guarding. Maybe then they'd know he's out there. He's got to start to like hitting people - in a good way, a quasi-legal way. a Bill-Lambier kind of way. Right now he's bouncing around like a goof instead of slamming into somebody getting position on the floor. (He and Martin must exchange notes.) Hawes is not athletic enough to get away with being a finesse defensive center. He CANNOT BE a finesse defensive player. He must start think more about whamming into people out there than about navigating through traffic. If Spencer would go out there and be so physical that he actually started a fight, THEN I'd know that he finally got it. Until then, he's a boy among men.

 

[Bricklayer]

Wel yes, what we've been talking about for a while. Looked better yesterday though. And while it was a minor play, may have even started the game before just on a single play where Hawes actually dropped his shoulder into some dude's chest on a post, and then kicked it out to a teammate. Meant nothing, showed nothing, except I could not recall having seen Spencer make that simple, physical, play before. Maybe just maybe having undersized scrappers after his minutes is going to rub off. I think a lot depends on how much his wussiness is due to a coaching/coddling/enabling enviromment around him that is changing now wiht the new regime, and how much he is just inherently a wimp and scared of getting little bruisies.

 

[Kingster]

Wel yes, what we've been talking about for a while. Looked better yesterday though. And while it was a minor play, may have even started the game before just on a single play where Hawes actually dropped his shoulder into some dude's chest on a post, and then kicked it out to a teammate. Meant nothing, showed nothing, except I could not recall having seen Spencer make that simple, physical, play before. Maybe just maybe having undersized scrappers after his minutes is going to rub off. I think a lot depends on how much his wussiness is due to a coaching/coddling/enabling enviromment around him that is changing now wiht the new regime, and how much he is just inherently a wimp and scared of getting little bruisies.

I didn't see that play, but it's encouraging that it actually happened. Obviously, it has to become more of the rule than the exception. (His partner in wussiness, Martin, took a charge in the NO game, then got so excited about his toughness episode that he proceeded to try several wussy-kamikazi steals after that.)

Despite Hawes's softness, he does appear competitive, which is a hopeful sign. I'm still holding out hope that it's not congenital and that he just needs the approval, encouragement and authorization from the coaching to go out there are whack somebody!

 

[bajaden]

I didn't see that play, but it's encouraging that it actually happened. Obviously, it has to become more of the rule than the exception. (His partner in wussiness, Martin, took a charge in the NO game, then got so excited about his toughness episode that he proceeded to try several wussy-kamikazi steals after that.)

Despite Hawes's softness, he does appear competitive, which is a hopeful sign. I'm still holding out hope that it's not congenital and that he just needs the approval, encouragement and authorization from the coaching to go out there are whack somebody!

I was an advocate of Hawes when we drafted him. And the reason was that he was a crafty post player that wasn't afraid to mix it up. I saw him get in and bang with the Lopez twins. And both of them are pretty physcial players. A jump shot was a very small part of his game in college, and although I'm sure he must have taken one, I personally never saw him shoot a three point shot in. Now he did have a guy named Brockman in the post with him, and, I believe that he plays better when he's on the floor with Thompson.

So I don't know. Maybe he needs to be on the floor with another physcial player to be in his comfort zone. It just doesn't make any sense to me, and I don't know how he got from the player I knew in college, to the player I see now. There was a feistyness and confidence about him in college that doesn't seem to be there anymore. I don't know where it went, or why it went. But something has happened to him. I hope for his sake, and the Kings sake, he can find the spark that seems to be missing now. He has all the tools. He just needs to use them. And use them with aggression..

 

[6th]

I was an advocate of Hawes when we drafted him. And the reason was that he was a crafty post player that wasn't afraid to mix it up. I saw him get in and bang with the Lopez twins. And both of them are pretty physcial players. A jump shot was a very small part of his game in college, and although I'm sure he must have taken one, I personally never saw him shoot a three point shot in. Now he did have a guy named Brockman in the post with him, and, I believe that he plays better when he's on the floor with Thompson.

So I don't know. Maybe he needs to be on the floor with another physcial player to be in his comfort zone. It just doesn't make any sense to me, and I don't know how he got from the player I knew in college, to the player I see now. There was a feistyness and confidence about him in college that doesn't seem to be there anymore. I don't know where it went, or why it went. But something has happened to him. I hope for his sake, and the Kings sake, he can find the spark that seems to be missing now. He has all the tools. He just needs to use them. And use them with aggression..

That's exactly my confusion. He did not play like a wuss in college. I can't help but wonder if the big paycheck possibilities are having an affect on him. Injuries are really getting prevalent in the NBA. Has someone told him that he'd better change his game in order to have better longevity? Let's face it. Bigs are in demand. They get good paydays because of their relative rarity. Can't collect the big bucks if you go out with serious injuries by banging with guys in the paint. This is just a thought. I have no idea if the money potential is having an affect on him or not.

 

[CruzDude]

Against the Spurs he actually got double teamed quite a bit but that's because they are a great defensive team by culture. Most teams just single cover Hawes. He needs to warrant a double team first. Then on D you all are right, he needs to be more physical down low. he is not the banger of a Brockman or JT but can be more than now. The harder forearm to the ribs is completely legal and he needs to be able to take some charges down low. That means moving his feet quicker. And jump straight up to block with arms straight up. Both he and JT reach too much getting them the few fouls right away.

Move the body in the way of driving players to reduce layup drills by others.

 

[beb0p]

I think it's important to remember that at 6-10.5 in bare feet, Hawes is on the small end of the scale for a center. I chuckle whenever I hear someone describes Hawes as a seven-footer. He is not a seven-footer, not even in sneakers. Add in the fact that he lacks strength and not athletic, perhaps what you're seeing is a good college player adjusting his game to survive in the NBA.

It's ok to be a 6-10.5 center if you have the athleticism or strenght to make up for it. Eddy Curry is 6-10.5 and as wide as a truck. Keon Clark is also 6-10.5 and could jump out of the gym. But Hawes has neither, he's a smallist center with below average athleticism and strenght. So how do you survive in the NBA? You hit jump shots.

There is a difference between getting physical with a bigger opponent once in while in college and banging one every game in the NBA. I don't know of any smaller, weaker, and less athletic post player who nonetheless succeeded based on tenacity and skill.

Since Hawes isn't growing any taller or jump any higher. For him to succeed in the post, he needs to get stronger, and I mean a lot stronger. Personally, I don't think he'll ever get there; I don't think he'll ever be that mean tough dude. So I think for him to succeed, he has to mix up his game a little bit. Kind of like Jeff Green - post up the smaller guys and go to the perimeter against bigger guys. In that sense, I think it'll do Hawes a lot of good to learn to put the ball on the floor.

Long term I question how Hawes fit into the team. Just seem to me that Hawes is good at things that we don't need and bad at things that we do. Don't get me wrong, he's a very talented player; but the Kings will soon be at a point where they need to start thinking about how the pieces fit together.

 

[gunks]

I've always found Hawes to be decently athletic in the few Kings games I'm able to watch....I mean, he's not going to be winning any dunk competitions anytime soon but he's no Brad Miller either.

I think its just the softie Princeton GP/Coachie culture that we have here on The Kings. Every article I read in the bee this summer about Coachie working with our bigs made me shudder...It was always an emphasis on 3s and high post passing.

Apparently Coachie has been assigned to work with Tyreke, which is great. Cause that means he has less time to corrupt JT and Hawes with his weaksauce big training. Also...Take what Coachie did for Kevin...Imagine him doing that for Reke. 30ppg scorer.


Hawes seems to have a mean streak. Its just hidden inside his much much larger soft streak. Kid needs to put on like...15 more lbs. Done wonders for Bosh.

 

[AriesMar27]

hawes is a wuss, he needs to grow a pair. i dont know why he is so soft this season. bring him off the bench isnt helping either. maybe westphal should tell hawes to go apesh*t in the post for the next few games until he gets is swagger back. if he is gonna come off the bench then he should at least play the role of a low post scorer against opposing teams benches... who do the grizz have? thabeet? gasol and randolph will probably push hawes around. but who else is on that team?

 

[Bricklayer]

I don't buy that Hawes is small, and I don't even buy that Hawes is THAT physically weak. He's not. We get to see him out there standing beside other frontline players, and he's not a stickman. Nor does anybody tower over him except for the Yao's, and tonight Thabeet. And he's a decent athlete for a big guy. Better than advertised there actually.

He does, however, appear to basically be something of a coward. Big nasty word that when you see that flung around...wow. But that's the issue. Not size/strength. Its not a question of Spencer being overpowered -- that would make the problem obvious. Its that he won't even go in there and fight. I have no idea how strong he is, and probably neither does he, because he simply shies away from every physcial confrontation to go run out into space. I remember we had a center around for years that didn't have a muscle in his body (no not Brad, the guy before him), but he would stand in there. He worked the post, he banged bodies, he wasn't afraid of contact in the least. I am highly suspicious of the advice/counseling Spencer has gotten from our organization in his first couple of years as well. Combine bad coaching with a front office which has always preferred jump shooting centers (and stupid announcers gushing over them) and I don't know what they have been telling him. Including Coachie BTW, rumored to have been working with Spencer on his 3pt shot. I mean, what the hell.

And with his post potential, it is just such a waste. I have said before that he has a rare gift in there that is just getting wasted. There was not a single post player, not one, in this entire last draft who had the moves Spencer occasionally flashes. Was not one in his own draft either. Guys with moves of that sophistication literally come around once every, I don't know, 5 years? Hell, I'm trying to even remember the last one before Spencer. Vlade had some of that ability. Hakeem. McHale. Sabonis when he was younger maybe. I mean, it is a RARE gift. And here he is fluttering around the perimeter chucking up low percentage three pointers. Somebody needs to be slapped. Whether it is Spencer himself (and whether being slapped would reduce him to tears I do not opine) or whether it is the idiot(s) encouraging his wussiness and enabling him to waste his gift, there is just a terrible misuse of talent taking place there.

I want McHale brought in in the worst way at this point. Never in a million years would I have said that. But he had those skills and even a similar body, and he understood what to do with them.

Pic of Spencer going against Dejuan "The Beast" Blair. Yes, the pic makes Spencer look more muscular than he is, but looking at those two players in that picture does it make any sense why one of them would be one of the most physical post players in the league, and the other one of the least?

 

[hammystyle]

Can anyone remember a young center with a reputation for being a pansy early in his career who eventually turned into a tough post guy? I can't think of a single one.

 

[fnordius]

Can anyone remember a young center with a reputation for being a pansy early in his career who eventually turned into a tough post guy? I can't think of a single one.

Some European bigs (e.g., Nowitzki to some extent, Gasol) managed to toughen up their games after arriving in the NBA. Not that they became Ben Wallace types or anything, but they stopped being the personification of softness.

 

[Superman]

I don't think they are any less soft than they used to be. They're simply more acomplished. It's been four or five years since Gasol was being worked over by Tim Duncan in the playoffs on the way to his Grizzlies getting swept three years in a row. Since then, he's played in two Finals and won one. But he's still Charmin soft.

Dirk has won an MVP and carried his team to the Finals, along with a couple other deep playoff runs. He has a deadly post move that he didn't earlier on in his career. And he plays a little more defense than he used to. But he's still soft.

To answer the original question, I don't think there's any big man who was pillowy early in his career and eventually developed into a intimidating force. Spencer is what he is. Maybe he'll learn how to use his body a little bit better, but he is a soft player who would rather shoot jumpers than post up. Might as well accept that for what it is.

 

[Kingster]

I was an advocate of Hawes when we drafted him. And the reason was that he was a crafty post player that wasn't afraid to mix it up. I saw him get in and bang with the Lopez twins. And both of them are pretty physcial players. A jump shot was a very small part of his game in college, and although I'm sure he must have taken one, I personally never saw him shoot a three point shot in. Now he did have a guy named Brockman in the post with him, and, I believe that he plays better when he's on the floor with Thompson.

So I don't know. Maybe he needs to be on the floor with another physcial player to be in his comfort zone. It just doesn't make any sense to me, and I don't know how he got from the player I knew in college, to the player I see now. There was a feistyness and confidence about him in college that doesn't seem to be there anymore. I don't know where it went, or why it went. But something has happened to him. I hope for his sake, and the Kings sake, he can find the spark that seems to be missing now. He has all the tools. He just needs to use them. And use them with aggression..

Totally agree. He's regressed. Of all of our players, I really wonder if the coaching carousel hurt him the most. I also wonder about his offseason workout program. He doesn't exactly look like a workout-warrior, though Brick's photo above appears to belie that.

 

[OptimusRhyme]

Replying to bricks post and that picture.

Yah his arms look big, but it could be his core and leg stregnth that is holding him back a bit i'm geussing?

 

[hammystyle]

Some European bigs (e.g., Nowitzki to some extent, Gasol) managed to toughen up their games after arriving in the NBA. Not that they became Ben Wallace types or anything, but they stopped being the personification of softness.

That's who I thought of too, but I'm not sure that's an apt comparison. Both those guys are tougher defenders then they once were, but they've always played to their strengths and been tough scorers. Driving to the bucket and earning free throws.

 

[AriesMar27]

Can anyone remember a young center with a reputation for being a pansy early in his career who eventually turned into a tough post guy? I can't think of a single one.

pau gasol.... he isnt a beast like dwight howard but he is so much more talented that it balances out.

elite talent and modest athletcisim can get you pretty far when you are damn near 7 ft. but its the coaches that allow soft players to play soft. i hate bringing up the lakers because this is a kings site but... and there is always a but, phil jackson wouldnt allow players to play the way hawes plays. he would bench hawes without blinking if he camped out beyond the arc. if its an open three with the shot clock winding down then no one can blame him for being put in that position. look at bench players like josh powell or turiaf back when he was a laker. they know their roles and they play them. hawes doesnt have a role on this team, he is a center but he isnt the center.

hawes could easily be the next pau gasol, soft but extremely effective. but not with a coach that allows him to do stupid things that wont help him develop as a player. hawes should be a legit 15/9/1.5 blocks per game player. he should be able to get a high percentage shot in the post whenever he wants with the complete lack of true centers in the nba. players like blair and bonner shouldnt be able to stop hawes. he is skilled enough to force teams to guard him with their starting bigmen.

he might not be able to get them into foul trouble, but he should be able to force teams to play his game. if he doesnt get it we will be bottom dwellers for a long time. having a real post presence is more important to this teams future than if our pg is a pg or if martin is a one dimensional shooter. they need a go to guy in the post when their shots arent falling. he needs to be in the post getting easy points or being in position for a rebound.

hypothetically speaking, if you were to trade hawes for bynum this team would be a much better team. not because bynum is a better player, he really isnt... but because he will do the little thing necessary for the team to win games. its the rebounds and put backs that add up to points that the opposing teams wont be able to score. if all of hawes' points were putbacks we would have won a game by now and we wouldve won more than 17 games last season. oddly enough the lakers wouldnt lose a step with hawes playing for them instead of bynum and hawes would become a better player in the end learning from phil and playing with pau.

simply playing thompson and hawes together wont help develop either player. they need someone who has been there before, its like the blind leading the blind. this is where it wouldve been nice if we couldve somehow had webber or divac as part of the coaching staff. not to make thompson and hawes into the next webber and divac but to show them the right way to play the game. divac wasnt the most athletic but he knew how to use his head and knew his limitations. webber was a freak of nature player who unfortunately got injured.

hawes is a wuss because petrie, the maloofs and westphal let him be a wuss. they dont push him to play to his potential. he needs a veteran or former player to help him out. bynum had/has kareem. yao had ewing. dwight had ewing too if im not mistaken... hawes has shareef and yoda... he had miller but well... thats done with.

 

[Jechtsphere]

When I watch Hawes it seems he'd rather cut corners, do whatever is easiest and he can get away with so when things get a little tough he'll start taking three's and trying these fadaways that have no chance of going in instead of manning up and banging inside.

 

[Kingsguy881]

Hawes needs both nuts to drop.

 

[Bricklayer]

Can anyone remember a young center with a reputation for being a pansy early in his career who eventually turned into a tough post guy? I can't think of a single one.

I think there have been cases of toughening up, but the end result is more "tougher" than "tough". Thing is though that back in the old days guys arrived in the league at 22 after 4 years of school-- they were largely what they were. All the more reason why this is a critical time for Spencer as wuss -- he's still young. He may still be able to change. By the time you reach 25 you rarely do.

Some possible examples we are very familiar with -- Vlade himself. Don't remember what his game as like when he arrived, but he was very soft and Magic was on him about it. Obviously he never became remotely a tough guy, but he did become a player willing to play physically in the post. And CWebb (PF, not C), one of the reasons that Washington was willing to dump him was that he had become lazy and self indulgent in Washington and was wasting there time sitting outside as a 3pt chucker. He took 205 3ptrs the year ebfore we got him. Then he grew up and settled in for us. And while he never was the consistent post masher his detractors wanted him to be, he didn't shy from it when it was there and he only had one year when he took any significant number of threes.

 

[kennadog]

hawes is a wuss because petrie, the maloofs and westphal let him be a wuss. they dont push him to play to his potential. he needs a veteran or former player to help him out. bynum had/has kareem. yao had ewing. dwight had ewing too if im not mistaken... hawes has shareef and yoda... he had miller but well... thats done with.

I'd hold off a bit more on blaming Westphal for this. All indications are that he is telling Hawes to get in the paint more and wants him to play in the paint more. We have no real way of knowing, but that may be part of the reason he's not starting.

 

[beb0p]

I don't buy that Hawes is small, and I don't even buy that Hawes is THAT physically weak. He's not. We get to see him out there standing beside other frontline players, and he's not a stickman. Nor does anybody tower over him except for the Yao's, and tonight Thabeet. And he's a decent athlete for a big guy. Better than advertised there actually.

You don't have to buy it, but the numbers speak for themselves. Very few starting center is shorter than 6-10.5 (except for small ball teams like NYC), and very few starting centers are shorter than Hawes and weaker than Hawes, judging by the bench presses done at the combine. By most standard, Hawes is a big strong man. But place him among the NBA centers, in other words, place him among the biggest and strongest athletes in the world, and he comes up just a little small. Still a big guy, but not as big as say, Nene, Chris Kaman, Oden, Dampier, and other centers he's matching up with.

Of course he is not THAT weak. No one said he is. But he is weaker than many of the centers he's facing. Remember, the center position is a position of physical gift as well as skill. Hawes doesn't have the strength to pin someone on his back. He lacks the ability to sky over his defender. And he is not tall enough to just shoot over his man. Hawes gets his shot blocked more often than you'd like. He does not consistently get good position in the post. And on defense, he lets his man get deep position a lot of times. All that are signs that he loses many of the physical battle.

That's not to say he is not a coward. Of course he is. But perhaps he is a coward of circumstance. All the nice footwork and the nice post moves can't help you if you can't establish good position. And I have yet to see Hawes able to get deep position consistently, the way Webber and Divac used to be able to do.

Last season when Hawes dropped 20+ points on Shaq, he did it almost entirely on jump shots. And when he faced Hilton Armstrong of the Hornets he went to the post a lot. I think he has figured out how to adjust to his opponents. And I think this is the way he's going to play for the rest of his career - shoot jumpers against bigger centers and post up the smaller centers.

To answer your question why Blair is a post presence and Hawes is not: simple, Blair is much stronger than Hawes.

 

[M_Barragan]

He's lazy... he has broad shoulders... no reason why he can't be stronger and in better shape. Look at Dwight... the guy lives in the gym and it's paying dividends. Obviously Dwight is in a league of his own athletically... but Hawes has more skill.

A pair of testicles and 10-15 more pounds and a lower bodyfat % would do Hawes a lot of good in the post. That alone would help his vertical and agility out... he has 25-30 LB of fat that Dwight does not have to chug around.

At 12% body fat and 175 I had a 32" vertical at 7% and 184 i had a 39" vertical... was a huge diference what I could do on the court. That's what he needs... he needs to become a gym rat and get his body into better shape.

 

[bajaden]

I think it's important to remember that at 6-10.5 in bare feet, Hawes is on the small end of the scale for a center. I chuckle whenever I hear someone describes Hawes as a seven-footer. He is not a seven-footer, not even in sneakers. Add in the fact that he lacks strength and not athletic, perhaps what you're seeing is a good college player adjusting his game to survive in the NBA.

It's ok to be a 6-10.5 center if you have the athleticism or strenght to make up for it. Eddy Curry is 6-10.5 and as wide as a truck. Keon Clark is also 6-10.5 and could jump out of the gym. But Hawes has neither, he's a smallist center with below average athleticism and strenght. So how do you survive in the NBA? You hit jump shots.

There is a difference between getting physical with a bigger opponent once in while in college and banging one every game in the NBA. I don't know of any smaller, weaker, and less athletic post player who nonetheless succeeded based on tenacity and skill.

Since Hawes isn't growing any taller or jump any higher. For him to succeed in the post, he needs to get stronger, and I mean a lot stronger. Personally, I don't think he'll ever get there; I don't think he'll ever be that mean tough dude. So I think for him to succeed, he has to mix up his game a little bit. Kind of like Jeff Green - post up the smaller guys and go to the perimeter against bigger guys. In that sense, I think it'll do Hawes a lot of good to learn to put the ball on the floor.

Long term I question how Hawes fit into the team. Just seem to me that Hawes is good at things that we don't need and bad at things that we do. Don't get me wrong, he's a very talented player; but the Kings will soon be at a point where they need to start thinking about how the pieces fit together.

I don't think anyone would argue with you about Hawes needing to get stronger, and I think some of that will come naturally as he matures. I don't think his height is a problem. He's basicly the same height or at least very close to the same height as most of the other centers in the league. And by the way he did measure over 7ft at the combine in shoes. He's exactly the same height as Noah without shoes. He's only a half inch shorter than Oden, B. Lopez, J. McGee, Bogut, and Gortat without shoes. And he's taller by a half inch than DeAndre Jordan and Hilton Armstrong.

There is however one huge difference between all these guys and Hawes except for Noah, and thats wingspan. Hawes has a wingspan of only slightly over 7ft. While all the others range from 7'3" to 7'6". Noah only has a 7'1" wingspan, but you could argue that he's more athletic than Hawes. For prespective, Evans almost has as big a wingspan as Hawes.

I don't know how many people remember Vlade when he came into the league, but he didn't look anything like he looked when he came to the Kings. He had a build very similar to Hawes. He was taller of course by a couple of inches, but as he got older he naturally put on weight until he became the player we saw. Remember that Hawes is still only 21 years old. Jermaine O'Neal was a tall skinny kid when he came into the league. The Shaq's and the Howard's are the rare one's. Even Karl Malone didn't look like the Malone we came to know.

I'm by no means making excuses for him. If anything, I'm disappointed in him at this point. But because he's been jerked around by having different coaches with different ideas and constant player changes, I'm willing to cut him some slack.

 

[kennadog]

Summer of 2008, Hawes worked with Shapiro, the team trainer, and reduced his body fat from 12% to 8.5%. Supposedly, he worked out a lot this last summer with Brockman and added about 10 pounds of muscle. All of that was written in the Sacramento Bee.

Some guys' bodies just mature older than others, too. There's been no indication from Westphal or anyone else, that Hawes doesn't work hard. As a matter of fact, comments have been just the opposite.

Now if he shies away from contact, that's a mental problem. I think there is still a chance he gains confidence/wisdom as matures. To me he seemed younger than his 19 years when he came to the Kings. Acted just like a know-it-all, very stubborn teenager. Hopefully he's growing out of that attitude, even if slower than many.

 

[kennadog]

I saw Vlade when he was collecting donations in Sacramento to take to New Orleans. He was quite slight in build. I think he actually was more bulked up than we thought he was, when he played for the Kings. I was surprised by his slimness.

 

[Bricklayer]

You don't have to buy it, but the numbers speak for themselves. Very few starting center is shorter than 6-10.5 (except for small ball teams like NYC), and very few starting centers are shorter than Hawes and weaker than Hawes, judging by the bench presses done at the combine. By most standard, Hawes is a big strong man. But place him among the NBA centers, in other words, place him among the biggest and strongest athletes in the world, and he comes up just a little small. Still a big guy, but not as big as say, Nene, Chris Kaman, Oden, Dampier, and other centers he's matching up with.

Of course he is not THAT weak. No one said he is. But he is weaker than many of the centers he's facing. Remember, the center position is a position of physical gift as well as skill. Hawes doesn't have the strength to pin someone on his back. He lacks the ability to sky over his defender. And he is not tall enough to just shoot over his man. Hawes gets his shot blocked more often than you'd like. He does not consistently get good position in the post. And on defense, he lets his man get deep position a lot of times. All that are signs that he loses many of the physical battle.

That's not to say he is not a coward. Of course he is. But perhaps he is a coward of circumstance. All the nice footwork and the nice post moves can't help you if you can't establish good position. And I have yet to see Hawes able to get deep position consistently, the way Webber and Divac used to be able to do.

Last season when Hawes dropped 20+ points on Shaq, he did it almost entirely on jump shots. And when he faced Hilton Armstrong of the Hornets he went to the post a lot. I think he has figured out how to adjust to his opponents. And I think this is the way he's going to play for the rest of his career - shoot jumpers against bigger centers and post up the smaller centers.

To answer your question why Blair is a post presence and Hawes is not: simple, Blair is much stronger than Hawes.

You keep mentioning the 6'10.5" inch height wihtout shoes thing, but that's not the way its measured in the NBA -- they measure with shoes. Which doesn't make him any taller, but it does mean that when a TV broadcaster says that so and so is 7'1" tall, that's wtih shoes. Wihtout, thta guy might be an inch taller than Spencer, tops.

Just going through draft combine measurements for a number of starting centers (without shoes):

In Spencer's year (2007):
Spencer was 6'10.5"
Noah was 6'10.5"
Oden was 6'11"
Horford was 6'8.75" (obviously he should be a PF, but his lack of size hasn't made him into a wuss)

In 2006:
Bargnani was 7'0" (and the biggest wuss of them all -- its not height)

In 2005:
Bogut was 6'11"
Frye 6'9.5" (starting this year, and another mega wuss)

In 2004:
Howard was 6'9" (yep, you read that right -- think he's growna bit, but he's not 7'0")
Okafor was 6'8.75"
Jefferson 6'8.5" (another PF but playing at center)

In 2003:
Kaman was 6'11.5"

In 2002:
Nene was 6'9.25"

and just etc. I guess. I mean the general point is that Spencer is NOT short for the position. And yeah the Kings site is ridiculous in inflating some of our guys, Spencer included. But in shoes he's pretty close to a legitimate 7'0", and he's pretty much middle of the road amongst NBA centers heightwise.

 

[Chupacabra]

I don't buy that Hawes is small, and I don't even buy that Hawes is THAT physically weak. He's not. We get to see him out there standing beside other frontline players, and he's not a stickman. Nor does anybody tower over him except for the Yao's, and tonight Thabeet. And he's a decent athlete for a big guy. Better than advertised there actually.

He does, however, appear to basically be something of a coward. Big nasty word that when you see that flung around...wow. But that's the issue. Not size/strength. Its not a question of Spencer being overpowered -- that would make the problem obvious. Its that he won't even go in there and fight. I have no idea how strong he is, and probably neither does he, because he simply shies away from every physcial confrontation to go run out into space. I remember we had a center around for years that didn't have a muscle in his body (no not Brad, the guy before him), but he would stand in there. He worked the post, he banged bodies, he wasn't afraid of contact in the least. I am highly suspicious of the advice/counseling Spencer has gotten from our organization in his first couple of years as well. Combine bad coaching with a front office which has always preferred jump shooting centers (and stupid announcers gushing over them) and I don't know what they have been telling him. Including Coachie BTW, rumored to have been working with Spencer on his 3pt shot. I mean, what the hell.

And with his post potential, it is just such a waste. I have said before that he has a rare gift in there that is just getting wasted. There was not a single post player, not one, in this entire last draft who had the moves Spencer occasionally flashes. Was not one in his own draft either. Guys with moves of that sophistication literally come around once every, I don't know, 5 years? Hell, I'm trying to even remember the last one before Spencer. Vlade had some of that ability. Hakeem. McHale. Sabonis when he was younger maybe. I mean, it is a RARE gift. And here he is fluttering around the perimeter chucking up low percentage three pointers. Somebody needs to be slapped. Whether it is Spencer himself (and whether being slapped would reduce him to tears I do not opine) or whether it is the idiot(s) encouraging his wussiness and enabling him to waste his gift, there is just a terrible misuse of talent taking place there.

I want McHale brought in in the worst way at this point. Never in a million years would I have said that. But he had those skills and even a similar body, and he understood what to do with them.

Pic of Spencer going against Dejuan "The Beast" Blair. Yes, the pic makes Spencer look more muscular than he is, but looking at those two players in that picture does it make any sense why one of them would be one of the most physical post players in the league, and the other one of the least?

Very good points youve made. Hawes is indeed physically able to play in the low post. Its his mind thats not allowing him to. I still believe he should be traded asap. Acquire a defensive minded center please.

 

[kennadog]

The Shaq's and the Howard's are the rare one's. Even Karl Malone didn't look like the Malone we came to know.

Actually, there wasn't quite so mauch Shaq as a rookie as there obviously was later. Looking at a rookie picture from the Magic's website history, you can hardley regonize him as the person we've known for some time. (Not that I think Hawes will ever be "Shaquesqe")

http://www.nba.com/magic/history/1992-93.html

 

[bajaden]

hawes is a wuss because petrie, the maloofs and westphal let him be a wuss. they dont push him to play to his potential. he needs a veteran or former player to help him out. bynum had/has kareem. yao had ewing. dwight had ewing too if im not mistaken... hawes has shareef and yoda... he had miller but well... thats done with.

First, Petrie doesn't coach the team. He's certainly responsible for the players that Hawes has to play with, but he usually gives the coach free reign on how he wants to coach the team. Probably a serious mistake when it came to Musselhead and Reggie, and perhaps thats where some of the damage was done. As far as Westphal goes, it could be that he is pushing Hawes to play differently by making him earn his playing time. So far though his quick hooks have had more to do with defensive mistakes than offensive mistakes.

Secondly, I think too many people are making way too much out of seeing coachie running drills behind an interview that was going on and it just happened to be Hawes practicing three point pull ups. I don't know how many of you have had a chance to see individual workouts but the shooting drills always start out at the perimiter and slowly work their way into the post. Its actually a pretty exhausting workout. And thats exactly what it looked like to me.