Grades v. Spurs 11/16

Which game winning attempt do you wish Salmons or Beno had taken instead?

  • Jason Thompson's force in the post vs. Oberto

    Votes: 8 9.9%
  • Brad Miller's 12ft choke from the side

    Votes: 18 22.2%
  • Quincy Douby's airballed 3pt heave at the buzzer

    Votes: 18 22.2%
  • All of the above

    Votes: 37 45.7%

  • Total voters
    81
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Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#1
Thompson ( C ) -- think the whole Jason as SF thing may be winding down now, and while it was a good patch to keep him getting minutes despite the frontcourt crowd, I doubt this little mini-era is going to be missed by many. Came out in this one hustling, making one great hustle play in particular in the first quarter that had him tipping the ball twice, then diving out after it onto the floor and saving it to a teammate. But his game never progressed past hustle player in this one. Never did get anything done offensively, and several times tried to post Tim Duncan, which had him learning his rookie lessons again. Actually spent a good chunk of his time at PF this time out, as this time when we brought in Douby we swung Jason up to PF rather than stick with Mikki. Good idea, but Jason wasn't much more effective at his natural position. Reggie gave him an unexpected chance to wash away memories of a thoroughly mediocre game by calling his number in the post with the game tied and less than 30 seconds to go...and could not get it to go over the Spurs set defense (Oberto was the primary defender). And so ended up as part of our three headed late game goat in this one instead.

Moore ( B ) -- a better performance from Mikki, who seemed to have a little extra spring in his legs and used it to actually get on the glass. Even got himself a block, which likely surprised him as much as the guy it was on, and overall the defense was not much of an issue against the revolving garbage that circles around Duncan (Miller seemed to have main Duncan duties), although I would like to add my own brief little scouting report on Matt Bonner for Mikki and the rest of our PFs: shoots threes. That's it. Crowd him. Lost minutes tonight not so much for anything he was doing as because Reggie swapped the rotation, and this time kept Jason in the game when Douby entered and slid him up to the PF spot, rather than keeping Mikki in and taking out JT.

Miller ( C+ ) -- a bit of a tough outing to grade for Brad, but in the end I think rounds out to: ok. Had the primary assignment against Duncan, and while Timmy rarely truly dominates anymore Brad still did a solid job at keeping his body between he and the hoop. On the other end did risk one of his waddling gallups to the hoop when he got up a full head of steam and had an angle on Duncan (who is no gazelle either), but otherwise largely just settled for the occasional 18 footer which he popped in at a middling clip. Joined the three headed goat club for us at the end of the game, when we drew up the second of our game-tying/winning attempts in the final seconds for Salmons/Miller. John did his job, drawing the defense and kicking the ball over to an open Brad for the 12-14 foot jumper from the side...and he airballed it. I made fun of Sean Singletary for choking so hard in the Phoenix game that he airballed a similar opportunity. But Brad's no rook and is an excellent midrange shooter. If Singletary's voice went up two octaves on his choke, Brad probably needs to be consulting with the dance team about where to get the best dilapitories. Went with the half grade drop for the choke.

Salmons ( A ) -- clearly our best player of the night, and not by a little. Pretty much carried us most of the way on offense, and did it extremely efficently too. In true exaggerated Kevin Martin fashion 31 points on 13 shots!!! But even taking away the exaggeration, he shot 10-13 from the firld, 3-4 from beyond the arc, 8-9 from the line...just shot the hell out of the ball from everywhere. Now it helped of course that the Spurs dire straits have them starting both Finley and Roger Mason to try to get some offense into the lienup, and hainvg steeply declining Bruce Bowen coming off the bench rather than harassing your best scorer. But even when Bowen returned he only sporadically bothered Salmons. The rest of the game wasn't really there -- John frequently dominated the ball as he is wont, dribbling and dribbling and dribbling looking for me myself and I, wasn't much ball movement, wasn't on the glass (more acceptable for these starts at OG than SF but 1 a game still ain't helping) and the defense wasn't up to his normal standards either. But offensively he was clearly and completely the man for us out there, and came within 1 point of his career high. The fact that he did not get a chance to go over that career high is interesting -- with John sitting on 31 points on 75% shooting, nobody else on the team having scored more than 16, and the game tied in the final 30 seconds, we first went to Jason Thompson (shot 4-13) then Brad Miller (John made the pass to set him up, so maybe he was supposed to shoot that one), and then Quincy Douby (shot 4-10 and just got done choking the game winner last time out against Phoenix). So John never got a shot at it. Odd. When handing out my grades I generally like my scorers to do something less self involved than just scoring points, but the proximity to his career high, as well as the degree to which he carried us makes the straight A warranted here.

Udrih ( B ) -- likely our second best player, and showed flashes of doing the ole stick it to his old team thing, but not able to sustain. Was aggressive early and repeately challenging, and generally beating, old teammate Duncan. Had a strong third quarter until San Antonio decided enough with the rookie George Hill at PG, and went to tough little vet Jacque Vaughn. They also began switching up the defense, and late in the game Bowen was actually out on him. As has happened several times before with Beno, while he was on the hot streak and facing single coverage, abel to atack at will. Once he came down of the streak, and the opponent adjusted with better personnel and more attention, he disappeared in the 4th. Not the negative assist/To ratio. Real tough stretch for Beno here hasn't it been? Aside from the slumbering Baron Davis, has faced CJ Watson, Goran Dragic, and now George Hill as his starting opponents this last week. :eek:

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Hawes ( C ) -- not one of his better outings. In fact one of his worst thus far. I'll give you one guess what he decided to do with his offense when faced with Tim Duncan. Except that his shot was not on. So now not only has your best/only post player made himself into a perimeter jumperhsooter, but now he's a missing perimeter jumpershooter as well, which basically means he was useless on offense. Should also be noted that he is 0 for his last 9 from 3pt land, which is a bad mini-slump for a shooting guard, but reaching ridiculous for a center with post skills. Quit shooting them. At a certain point that is on the coaching staff too. Was a better story on the other end fo the floor, where I felt he did a decent job against Duncan when he was on him (overpowered a few times but otherwise impeded him) and came up with a few more blocks -- in a surprise probably the most consistent part of his game thus far. Was solid on the glass as well, and so this was not a disaster, but someone has got to slap this kid on offense. When Brad runs to the perimeter its because his post game is sad and he has no answer. But Hawes could be good in there -- except he's too afraid to ever challenge anyone and runs away at the first sign of resistance.

Jackson ( D ) -- made a few hustle plays in the first half but that was largely it. Led to short minutes and little evidence he had een played.

Brown ( B- ) -- Thought I would copy/paste this here, as clearly this is all that needs to be said:

Hey Bricklayer Before You Grade Bobby Brown
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YOU NEED TO WATCH THE GAME VERY CLOSE HE GOT THE BALL TO THE RITE PEOPLE HE DID WHAT A PG IS SUPPOSE TO DO PUT PRESSURE ON THE BALL AND MAKE PLAYS FOR HIS TEAMMATE'S


Douby ( B- ) -- Quincy always seems to end up in this same place. In the more normal rotation this time as an answer to Kevin/Cisco being absent, but again his real adventures came after half. Came in in the third and had an immediate impact again, spacing the floor with threes and helping us balance things. But began to cool down, into the 4th, and other than stepping back up for one more three, was largely silent until Reggie suddenly called his number again for a chance at redemption -- a desperation three point heave at the buzzer to win it. Not close, and instead of redemption, the scrubby tweener guard who has spent most of the season not even on the active roster, now gets to wear back to back goat horns as the premier member of our rapidly expanding could've-won-it-but-I-choked club. 5 plays in the last two games against crippled playoff teams. Douby 0-2. Salmons 0-1. Brad 0-1. Thompson 0-1. Hell, before long we might as well give Kenny a shot.

Williams ( INC ) -- just a few brief minutes in the first half I guess as a failed experiment.
 
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Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#2
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Theus ( C ) -- ok, well what we have here is a mixed bag. Still going with the Thompson at SF experiment, which is good for our future development, but is bearing decreasing returns on the court, but this time Reggie switched up the rotation once Douby came in, and instead of Douby and Thompson basically platooning, it was Mikki who left instad and DOuby + Thompson were out there together. Again, better for our future development. But given this game, not for the short term prospects -- Mikki was better today than Jason. Jason at SF also has not helped our already shaky defense any, and its been a lot of zone, with a lot of holes, as we try to disguise him out there. That said, it is worth noting the dual Martin effect here -- our offense has slowed since Kevin went down, but same as last year the defense on the other hand gets better. Only 1 team has scored 100+ since Kevin went down, and that was Detroit at exactly 100. Not that it would take much to slow down this group of Spurs. My lord. At one point in the second quarter they trotted out this lineup: Francisco Oberto, Matt Bonner, Bruce Bowen, Roger Mason, Jacque Vaughn. :eek: The career scoring averages for those 5 players btw? 3.8ppg (Oberto), 6.2ppg (Bonner), 6.4ppg (Bowen), 5.9ppg (Mason), 4.5ppg (Vaughn). Now that's offensive firepower. But of course the problem for Reggie in this game is that we lost to a team trotting out those kind of lineups. Now longtime, or even shortime readers of this board will know where I stand on this: these sorts of losses are actually good foir us at this point. Tight loss to veteran championship team in a rebuilding year? Good stuff. Gets the kids experience in close games, doesn't damage confidence or create a losing culture or any of that bunk, and moves us closer to getting a high pick to add to our future lineup. But there will be questions in this one because the very area where I thought Reggie did an excellent job in the Phoenix game -- drawing up two game winning/tying plays that worked to perfection and resulted in wide open opportunities by Salmons and Douby -- was the area that has question marks hanging all over it this game. And here in particular is where the good and the bad of it depends on what we were trying to accomplish, and what we should be trying to accomplish. Because if the purpose was to win the game, then not having John Salmons, shooting 10-13 for the game and 1pt off his career high, take at least one of your three game winning/typing attempts is just nutty. Not even having Beno take one of them -- our second best player and best overall shooter still on the active roster, even moreso. Having secondary and even tertiary young players like Thompson and Douby launching them is just...wow. But there is a kinder way to look at it. If the purpose was to develop the young players, to give them confidence, to try to build them up for the future, then giving Jason Thompson a chance to win the game in the post, or giving Quincy Douby a chance to atone for his choke vs. Phoenix could kinda make sense. So I am going to split the difference a bit. The Reggie of this year has treated coaching the kids in considerably different a fashion from the Reggie of last year. Maybe this wasn't about being clever or looking like a genius. Maybe he really was trying to build the kids up. Then its just a question of whether you accept that as reasonable objective under those circumstances.
 
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#3
I liked going to Jason against Oberto. He just went away from the hoop and not to it. I wish we had gone to him again on the second run. If anything, the kids need experience taking the tough shots with the game on the line (just like Spencer should have gotten more looks Friday). Quincy doesn't really count in my book, because there's a big chance he won't be around for the long run. And with 1.6 sec left you really just take the first open look you get. Brad's airball was simply pathetic.
 
S

sactownfan

Guest
#4
yeah Jasons shot almost fell. I was impressed with the call by Reggie... Im sure it was the last thing the Spurs thought we'd do... It didnt go but it was a good shot.

Millers miss.... well if he can make that shot then what is he doing out on the floor? it isnt to be a defensive stopper...

Douby... well it was bad, real bad. I know hes got range but wow! he simply was under too much pressure, especially after missing the big shot the game before. It was an error i'd expect from a player that hardly sees the floor, and can only be corrected by playing more mins, and being comfortable out there. he could have head faked his man off him into the air, then dribbled up 2 or 3 feet and had a much better look... but i dont fault him for his freak out. He just doesnt play enough. He has been shooting well and is a better defensive player than bobby j. i'd like to see him over Bobby J. as the small SG.
 
#6
unless jason thompson drastically changes in the next couple of years he'll never be more than a hustle player. he does not have the offensive skill set to be isolated. the couple times this season he has scored from an ISO he was out of control and made a lucky shot. and for being 6" 11", he doesnt play like it. maybe get him some practice in the beginning of games but not in crunch time. what sets the better teams apart from us is they know who to give the ball to in crunchtime. who did SA go to every play? Timmy,....with salmons scoring so well, we should have rode on his back. GREAT COACHING REGGIE! and on a different note,....brad looks lamer than ever. he got boxed out and knocked down by jauque voughn. i swear brad has size 7 feet. he week and slow. if hes not hittin jumpers,....sit down.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#7
Heart-breaking loss? Au contraire. We saw a good game with the kinds of errors you would expect from players still getting to know each other. It was fun and entertaining and a lot closer than anyone would have expected...

It's that kind of game that keeps people coming back because there was energy and excitement, heart and hustle... It isn't the final score that matters. It's knowing that this team is going to get better and be even more entertaining.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#8
unless jason thompson drastically changes in the next couple of years he'll never be more than a hustle player. he does not have the offensive skill set to be isolated. the couple times this season he has scored from an ISO he was out of control and made a lucky shot. and for being 6" 11", he doesnt play like it. maybe get him some practice in the beginning of games but not in crunch time. what sets the better teams apart from us is they know who to give the ball to in crunchtime. who did SA go to every play? Timmy,....with salmons scoring so well, we should have rode on his back. GREAT COACHING REGGIE! and on a different note,....brad looks lamer than ever. he got boxed out and knocked down by jauque voughn. i swear brad has size 7 feet. he week and slow. if hes not hittin jumpers,....sit down.
God, I'm so tired of this. He's a rookie. Let me say it different, HE'S A ROOKIE!!!!!! OK, I feel better. Unless he drastically changes in a couple of years. Ahhh, that is what rookies do. The kid is playing very well, for not playing his natural position. His shots will start to fall. It was just one of those games where nothing was falling for him. It happens to the best of them. I watched Timmy Hardaway go 1 for 22 one night. I saw nights where Webber couldn't hit the side of a barn. It happens!

And, for being 6'11", he doesn't play like it? So please enlighten me. Just how does a 6'11" player play? You know what? I'm tired, its late, and I'm not going to waste my breath.
 
#10
These close losses have not been too bothersome for me. Nobody expects the Kings to win anyway. There are some good things happening out there. But for the turnovers, the Kings would hve won this game. I would assume that they will turn the ball over less as the season moves on.

The injuries to Kevin and Cisco have given some of the deep bench guys a last-minute opportunity to show Reggie, Geoff, and the coaches something. When they eventually get cut or benched, they will know why. Then again, perhaps someone will show enough spark and skill to get some minutes after Kevin and Cisco come back?
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#11
Just a thought, but how many people would have liked Cisco to take that shot that Miller air balled? I think this is where Cisco is missed the most. The dude has icewater in his veins.
 

Capt. Factorial

trifolium contra tempestatem subrigere certum est
Staff member
#12
Just a thought, but how many people would have liked Cisco to take that shot that Miller air balled? I think this is where Cisco is missed the most. The dude has icewater in his veins.
Frankly, when I saw Brad open for that jumper, I thought we had tied it up. Seems like the play worked out perfectly for us - Salmons (IIRC) drove the lane, drew the defense and left Brad WIDE OPEN for a 15-footer. He hits that shot 8 times out of 10. Why he airballed it last night I have no idea, bad luck I guess, but short of a dunk or a layup, that's as high percentage shot as you're going to get (and with Duncan in the lane in crunch time, you're not going to get a dunk or a layup).

He missed the shot, but that is defnitely the shot I wanted.
 
#13
I'm waiting to see what Bricks take of Theus is.

As for me, it looked like Theus was shoving it back in Joe Maloofs face by playing JT & Douby too much. And, last year when they told him to play Douby more, well Theus put him on the spot for the last shot and the kid failed twice.

In a defensive game, he has Hawes our best defender on the bench at the end of the game even though JT was having his worst game. As far as Hawes offense, I've posted before that I think they need to run the high post offense through Hawes occasionally even when he is on the floor with Miller. Hawes is better on the pick and roll, and he's better driving to the rim if they over play him. Let Miller set up for the ourside 3pt shot. If the Kings are going to run a high post offense, then Hawes needs to start getting more experience.

Hawes gets 20min, Douby gets 24min, Brown gets 12min, and JT gets 33min, plus they made no effort to get the ball in to Hawes at the low post. The Kings were the 11th best offensive team going into the game, and the Spurs only had Duncan. I've got to give the coaching staff a F.
 
#14
Just a thought, but how many people would have liked Cisco to take that shot that Miller air balled? I think this is where Cisco is missed the most. The dude has icewater in his veins.
I didn't mind that shot for Miller at all. I expected he would make it.

Douby's had very little real playing time, but even last year, I noticed he really seems to tighten up when a shot matters more. If the game's not even close, he shoots well.

Douby's only chance at making it is as a scorer, but he's going to have to be able to do it when the pressure's on.
 
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#15
Hey Bricklayer Before You Grade Bobby Brown

YOU NEED TO WATCH THE GAME VERY CLOSE HE GOT THE BALL TO THE RITE PEOPLE HE DID WHAT A PG IS SUPPOSE TO DO PUT PRESSURE ON THE BALL AND MAKE PLAYS FOR HIS TEAMMATE'S:cool:
 
#16
Hey Bricklayer, that was funny how you mocked the new member by sarcastically posting his comment into your grades. Viewership of this forum isn't just down because of our bad team.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#17
Hey Bricklayer, that was funny how you mocked the new member by sarcastically posting his comment into your grades. Viewership of this forum isn't just down because of our bad team.

I am responsible for the half empty arena too. And proud of it. :rolleyes:
 
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#19
Couple of points:

1. How sad is it that the grading curve for Mikki is now so low that a 2pt starting effort is a 'B'?
2. What killed us the second quarter. When San Antonio trotted out a lineup of Oberto, Bonner, Bowen, Mason and Vaughn I thought that was to be one of the slowest least talented lineups ever. It was also a time to go on a run. So what happened? The Spurs cut a 8 point lead down to 5 and later we are down at the half. We did a terrible job of taking advantage when Duncan was out. He was actually a -8 for the game.
3. Does Douby have stamina problems, he seems to slow down after about 5 minutes?
4. Our players should be made to watch tape of this game to see how a veteran, less talent team can win. By good defensive rotations and not turning the ball over. You hardly ever see them make an ill advised pass or a kings player wide open. There were several plays were Douby or Thompson did not know who to guard.
5. The half doubling Duncan with a guard. This does not work and I wish we would stop it. We end up with Douby or Beno not really guarding anyone and the best that happens is a foul. If we are going to double, use a man coming from his blind spot so he does not see it coming. That is what resulted in his 5 turnovers.
6. To everyone playing against Matt Bonner, you let him shoot 5 wide open 3's and he finished with 0 fouls. Come on now, this is Matt Bonner we are talking about.
7. What is killing us now is not having another 2 guard. We have tried Bobby and Douby and neither work. This also forces us to use Thompson at the 3 more minutes than we should.
8. This team needs to work on the entry pass and the repost. I am getting frustrated for Spencer. Guards, he is an asset use him please.
9. There is way too much dribbling on this team.
10. As far as the defense being better without Kevin, I would argue it is a matter of pace. We have allowed the last three teams to shot 44,46 and 45% on us. Not exactly defensive excellence.
 
#20
Good game!

1) Close, not an embarrassing blowout
2) Kids got valuable experience
3) Chalk up another pingpong ball

This season, that's what I want to see.
 
#22
I think we are being to hard on Douby. I know I'm not the only one who sees that he has clearly improved since last year...he is making his shots consistently now and was actually pretty clutch last night, just not when it counted the most. What we have to remember is that those last second shots are what he lived on in College, I don't have a problem with giving him the last second shot becuase eventually he will make it and when he does expect him to be our go to guy next to Garcia. Thats the kind of player he is developing into. I'm not giving up on him yet.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#23
I think we are being to hard on Douby. I know I'm not the only one who sees that he has clearly improved since last year...he is making his shots consistently now and was actually pretty clutch last night, just not when it counted the most. What we have to remember is that those last second shots are what he lived on in College, I don't have a problem with giving him the last second shot becuase eventually he will make it and when he does expect him to be our go to guy next to Garcia. Thats the kind of player he is developing into. I'm not giving up on him yet.

Once Kevin and Cisco return what he's going to be is our 13th man. He could not have picked a worse position to be a tweener at -- no old men to move out of his way (nor has his performance justified moving anybody of course). Its not likely he is going to be here after April.

I would agree that people are being too hard on him...but that's because I think he's a career bencher, if he is even able to sustain a career. There's a long and cluttered graveyard of short career tweener guards who never figured out how to distribute the ball. Maybe Quincy's defense will let him catch on somewhere next year, but its unlikely to be here barring massive and unexpected changes to our backcourt roster.
 
#24
I don't know why in the hell we are still playing a dwarf shooting guard in this team when we have Martin, Salmons, and Garcia on that position already. I think if he is as good as Iverson, then let him play. But since he is not, then just bench him until his contract expires. He is taking away minutes from BBrown and Bjackson everytime he plays.

For the team's sake, let him go coz he'll never be a true point guard!
 

CruzDude

Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
#25
These close losses have not been too bothersome for me. Nobody expects the Kings to win anyway. There are some good things happening out there. But for the turnovers, the Kings would hve won this game. I would assume that they will turn the ball over less as the season moves on.
The fact that the Kings could have won both those close home games without two of their best players speaks volumes about their progress. Hey guys, it is only 10-11 games in with 2-1/2 rookies playing major time (I call Hawes 1/2 rookie as he did not play much last year). Rookies will do rookie dumness. Even the top ones.

Turnovers are unfortunately the result of such a young team with no experience with the current roster that has only been together 3 games. In couple of recent games the TO's have been down and the rebounding is definitely UP. But to see Reggie getting Douby, Thompson and Hawes involved down the stretch is necessary and it gonna be agonizing for awhile. Exciting but agonizing. It called rebuilding.
 

Capt. Factorial

trifolium contra tempestatem subrigere certum est
Staff member
#26
I don't know why in the hell we are still playing a dwarf shooting guard in this team when we have Martin, Salmons, and Garcia on that position already. I think if he is as good as Iverson, then let him play. But since he is not, then just bench him until his contract expires. He is taking away minutes from BBrown and Bjackson everytime he plays.
Huh?

Douby is playing because between Martin, Salmons, and Garcia, both Martin and Garcia are injured. Our shooting guard position right now is quite thin.

And you're calling Douby a "dwarf" then wishing that the even shorter "Jackson Browne" duo play at the 2 instead?

Besides, Brown, Jackson, Garcia, and Salmons are not as good as Iverson, and Martin probably isn't either. Let's bench them all and play 4-on-5.
 
#27
I don't know why in the hell we are still playing a dwarf shooting guard in this team when we have Martin, Salmons, and Garcia on that position already. I think if he is as good as Iverson, then let him play. But since he is not, then just bench him until his contract expires. He is taking away minutes from BBrown and Bjackson everytime he plays.

For the team's sake, let him go coz he'll never be a true point guard!
I love Bobby Jackson just like many of you do but I have to disagree with your statement. We know what we have in Bobby. He’s a great leader, good captain and he plays with heart on all possessions. But I rather see what we have in Quincy before we let him go….And I’m not saying that we shouldn’t play Bobby Jackson. I’m just saying that we should also take a good look at Quincy.

Can’t we play Bobby Brown and Quincy together? I think so.

And no, Quincy Douby isn’t and never was a point guard. People need to let that go.

I don’t get some people. It took both Kevin and Cisco to get consistent minutes to see them improve and see who they are as players. They didn’t develop in 1 year. Kevin took 2 years, Cisco took 2.5/3. One of those years was pretty much wasted for both Cisco and Douby. Muss didn’t do anything for them. Then last year Quincy didn’t really see floor time, the kid has finally got some minutes in the last 2 games. Let him settle and then see what we have in him. He can be a total bust, but I’m not writing him off just because he missed 2 big shots. As ice cold as Francisco is he’s also missed big shots.

Sorry if this turned into a rant. I just had to say this.
 
#28
"All of the above" is the easy answer, so in the interests of taking a stand for something I voted for Brad. God that was embarrassing.
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