I think you forgot K. Thomas. Ha Ha, its easy to forget him since he doesn't play. I think management would be real happy to unload at least K. Thomas's and SAR's contract, which will both come of the books after that season along with Millers 12 mil contract and Moore's 6 mil contract. Hey, I'm not saying we can't screw it up, but we would have to work at it pretty hard.
Beno agrees to terms with Kings
- Thread starter NyfdRIP343
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Actually 22 wins got either Kevin Love or OJ Mayo. 33 wins got Rose. When was the last time being the worst team got you the best player in the lottery? It seems like more often than not some team jumps into the #1 spot. So what do you do when you pick a year to tank and you get to choose between a 6-7 too slow PF and a SG that may or may not be a decent PG?
2004:
1. Dwight Howard
2. Okafor
3. Ben Gordon
4. Livingston
5. Devin Harris
6. Childress
7. Deng
8. Araujo
9. Iggy
10. Luke Jackson
So, these top 10 picks are supposed to be star-level talent that might end up franchise players who help make a team a contender. So how have these teams done with that?
I'd say the Magic got a great player, but still 4 years later with a team with decent talent, they haven't gotten past the first round.
The bulls went on a run two years ago and swept the Heat in the first round, but didn't go anywhere. Ben and Deng got caught up in how good they thought they were, turned down 50 mil deals, and now that team is a mess. 4 years later, they are still hoping their lottery pick might change things.
The sixers got Iggy, and improved lately, but are they on their way to contending?
2005
1. Bogut
2. Marvin Williams
3. Deron Williams
4. Chris Paul
5. Felton
6. Webster
7. Charlie V
8. Frye
9. Diogu
10. Bynum
Seems as if there are only two franchise players, possibly 3 if Bynum turns out like LA fans think he will. He's still got to develop and stay healthy, and nothing is proven for him at this point. The other 7 players are role players who haven't turned around a franchise.
The Hornets are almost at a contending level, but need a bench, as they had one of the worst in the game. They overpaid some guys to get talent, and still need more work with little money to work with to get to the next level.
Utah got Deron, but they still aren't serious contenders. They were one of the worst road teams in the game, and had some inconsistent play that hurt them. They made the WCF two seasons ago, but they still need more work.
2006:
1. Bargnani
2. Aldridge
3. Morrison
4. Tyrus Thomas
5. Sheldon Williams
6. Brandon Roy
7. Foye
8. Rudy Gay
9. Patrick O'Bryant
10. Sene
Ok, we have possibly two franchise players who aren't at that level yet. Brandon Roy is the closest to that level, and will lead the Blazers with some other pieces for the foreseeable future. Rudy Gay might turn out to be that franchise guy, but he isn't there yet.
Aldridge is a nice piece, and might turn into an all-star if things pan out, but not a guy who can change a franchise.
Some people in this thread really slammed Geoff for that Beno deal that will keep the Kings from getting a top 5 pick. Some would rather lose so they can get a top 5 lottery pick for the supposed "future" of the franchise.
Do you see, in the recent draft classes, a lock for a franchise player in the top 10? Top 5? I counted 3 franchise players in the top 5, and possibly 3 more in the 5-10 range. That's 6 (best case) in 30 picks during 3 drafts.
Do you think that if the Kings lose and get a top 5 pick that it will turn into the future? Let's say they do. Let's say they didn't sign Beno, dump some contracts, and lose 50-60 games for two more seasons, and in 2010 the Kings get a top 3 pick and draft a very good player, but he won't develop into that franchise changer for another few seasons. That means by the time you get your franchise level player, there goes 5 losing seasons, and that's best case scenario. Worst case, they pick a guy who doesn't pan out, and they can't sign big free agents who don't want to come back, and we are back to early 90's sacramento basketball.
It's very rare that a team grabs a superstar in the draft. Just look at teams like Hawks who have had the most lottery picks and haven't been relevant for years.
1. Dwight Howard
2. Okafor
3. Ben Gordon
4. Livingston
5. Devin Harris
6. Childress
7. Deng
8. Araujo
9. Iggy
10. Luke Jackson
So, these top 10 picks are supposed to be star-level talent that might end up franchise players who help make a team a contender. So how have these teams done with that?
I'd say the Magic got a great player, but still 4 years later with a team with decent talent, they haven't gotten past the first round.
The bulls went on a run two years ago and swept the Heat in the first round, but didn't go anywhere. Ben and Deng got caught up in how good they thought they were, turned down 50 mil deals, and now that team is a mess. 4 years later, they are still hoping their lottery pick might change things.
The sixers got Iggy, and improved lately, but are they on their way to contending?
2005
1. Bogut
2. Marvin Williams
3. Deron Williams
4. Chris Paul
5. Felton
6. Webster
7. Charlie V
8. Frye
9. Diogu
10. Bynum
Seems as if there are only two franchise players, possibly 3 if Bynum turns out like LA fans think he will. He's still got to develop and stay healthy, and nothing is proven for him at this point. The other 7 players are role players who haven't turned around a franchise.
The Hornets are almost at a contending level, but need a bench, as they had one of the worst in the game. They overpaid some guys to get talent, and still need more work with little money to work with to get to the next level.
Utah got Deron, but they still aren't serious contenders. They were one of the worst road teams in the game, and had some inconsistent play that hurt them. They made the WCF two seasons ago, but they still need more work.
2006:
1. Bargnani
2. Aldridge
3. Morrison
4. Tyrus Thomas
5. Sheldon Williams
6. Brandon Roy
7. Foye
8. Rudy Gay
9. Patrick O'Bryant
10. Sene
Ok, we have possibly two franchise players who aren't at that level yet. Brandon Roy is the closest to that level, and will lead the Blazers with some other pieces for the foreseeable future. Rudy Gay might turn out to be that franchise guy, but he isn't there yet.
Aldridge is a nice piece, and might turn into an all-star if things pan out, but not a guy who can change a franchise.
Some people in this thread really slammed Geoff for that Beno deal that will keep the Kings from getting a top 5 pick. Some would rather lose so they can get a top 5 lottery pick for the supposed "future" of the franchise.
Do you see, in the recent draft classes, a lock for a franchise player in the top 10? Top 5? I counted 3 franchise players in the top 5, and possibly 3 more in the 5-10 range. That's 6 (best case) in 30 picks during 3 drafts.
Do you think that if the Kings lose and get a top 5 pick that it will turn into the future? Let's say they do. Let's say they didn't sign Beno, dump some contracts, and lose 50-60 games for two more seasons, and in 2010 the Kings get a top 3 pick and draft a very good player, but he won't develop into that franchise changer for another few seasons. That means by the time you get your franchise level player, there goes 5 losing seasons, and that's best case scenario. Worst case, they pick a guy who doesn't pan out, and they can't sign big free agents who don't want to come back, and we are back to early 90's sacramento basketball.
It's very rare that a team grabs a superstar in the draft. Just look at teams like Hawks who have had the most lottery picks and haven't been relevant for years.
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I don't think anyone is claiming that all top ten guys are franchise players. I just think you have a better chance of finding a future stud in the early lottery than you do in the mid-first or through MLE's. If nothing else, they give you young talent and trade bargaining power. We instead have ended up with a team full of guys just not good enough, or just too expensive or too old.
Bottom line, I just can't think of a contender that rebuilt the way we appear to be trying to. Doesn't mean its impossible, just less likely.
uhm attainable means we are able to get them. Like Chris Paul, Steve Nash, Tony Parker, Deron Williams, are pretty much unattainale. Effor/Sacrifice? Are in inclining Beno lacks effort and what eactly do you want him to sacrifice.
Or is this just a way to not have to answer the question at hand kinda like Bill Clinton wanting a definition of sex.
Or is this just a way to not have to answer the question at hand kinda like Bill Clinton wanting a definition of sex.
That's not the point to some. Some would rather they start Singletary or another cheaper, short term vet to start and lost games to get a high lottery pick on the slim chance they land a franchise guy. It's not always about get a decent player, because decent won't get a top 5 pick.
IMO, they have gotten pieces to rebuild, they just need more time to get rid of the bad contracts that are still from the '05 decision to rebuild. They have nice young pieces that may turn out to be stars if they develop.
IMO, they have gotten pieces to rebuild, they just need more time to get rid of the bad contracts that are still from the '05 decision to rebuild. They have nice young pieces that may turn out to be stars if they develop.
I don't think signing Beno was a bad move on principle, but I think we definitely overpaid to get him. For example, the Clippers just got Baron Davis for roughly twice what we just paid for Beno Udrih. I would have rather seen Petrie offer Beno a two year deal to see if he genuinely is a starting PG before committing a full five years to him and cutting into the 2010 plans. And if Udrih doesn't work out, try to target some of the redundant young PGs in Memphis or Portland or Seattle with a trade.
It's not Beno personally that I object too, I think he showed enough potential last year to optimistically hope he can develop into a legitimate starting PG. But honestly, Beno is at best going to be middle of the pack at his position and by signing him immediately instead of waiting for the Davis deal to go down and gaging his fair market value or finding out what other deals may be on the table we're limiting our ability to grow and get better as a team.
Another example, we had the #12 pick on draft day and Portland traded their #13 pick for Jarryd Bayless. I'm not a Bayless fan personally, but why couldn't we have come up with a deal using our #12 pick to get him? Other teams are being proactive and we're making very very conservative moves. Meanwhile we've dropped from being #1 in the west to one of the worst teams in the west in just a few seasons. It's tough to imagine this team ever getting significantly better under this present strategy.
It's not Beno personally that I object too, I think he showed enough potential last year to optimistically hope he can develop into a legitimate starting PG. But honestly, Beno is at best going to be middle of the pack at his position and by signing him immediately instead of waiting for the Davis deal to go down and gaging his fair market value or finding out what other deals may be on the table we're limiting our ability to grow and get better as a team.
Another example, we had the #12 pick on draft day and Portland traded their #13 pick for Jarryd Bayless. I'm not a Bayless fan personally, but why couldn't we have come up with a deal using our #12 pick to get him? Other teams are being proactive and we're making very very conservative moves. Meanwhile we've dropped from being #1 in the west to one of the worst teams in the west in just a few seasons. It's tough to imagine this team ever getting significantly better under this present strategy.
Nobody has ever been sold on he idea that all top 10 picks = franchise players, so every poster here is going to agree to that.
However, looking over the lists for the last 30 years, I don't notice a single championship team that didn't have a top 5 pick on their roster. Do you know of one that I overlooked?
However, looking over the lists for the last 30 years, I don't notice a single championship team that didn't have a top 5 pick on their roster. Do you know of one that I overlooked?
Well, I said somebody like Anthony Johnson so it wasn't just limited to him, but point taken. My point was that it wasn't imperative we need Beno's skill level, we need to just hold the fort until we can come across a PG of the future, rather than just spending the full MLE on a guy who has really only had one good year and has been injury prone. It's not a safe bet for a rebuilding team that doesn't need mid level starters, we're not contending for anything right now; we're better off sitting at the bottom of the barrel with a mediocre starting PG than hovering around the late lottery with a mid level PG. You can say he'll be a quality back up, but he's never really succeeded in that role and we need to get a starting core built before we start tossing MLE's away on bench players.
Beno averaged 14.4pts (.474 FG% .404 3pt% .861 FT%) 3.5reb 5.0ast 0.9stl 0.1blk as a starter.
14.4 pts is 11th in scoring amongst pgs and mind you get got that behind 2 guys that averaged 20 pts and being the 4th scoring option.
5 ast is 20th in ast amongst pgs. This on a team that runs through the Center half the time and has Ron Artest. LOL
3.5 reb is 7th in reb amonst pgs. not much to say there other than pgs suck at rebounding lol
47% fg is 7th as well
40% 3pt is 9th
and 12th in FT%
Mind you I included all players that played the pg postion not just the qualified leaders.
So I got guys that only played 9, 12, 11, 15 games in front of Beno is some categories.
now the point What more could we as for in a pg or future pg. it was also the first year he ever started.
14.4 pts is 11th in scoring amongst pgs and mind you get got that behind 2 guys that averaged 20 pts and being the 4th scoring option.
5 ast is 20th in ast amongst pgs. This on a team that runs through the Center half the time and has Ron Artest. LOL
3.5 reb is 7th in reb amonst pgs. not much to say there other than pgs suck at rebounding lol
47% fg is 7th as well
40% 3pt is 9th
and 12th in FT%
Mind you I included all players that played the pg postion not just the qualified leaders.
So I got guys that only played 9, 12, 11, 15 games in front of Beno is some categories.
now the point What more could we as for in a pg or future pg. it was also the first year he ever started.
I agree with CruzDude. Not that he is a Tony Parker or Steve Nash, but that he's young, a lot of upside, has shown something good in his first year starting, and has good size with a defensive mind for the game.
Injury prone, but it's hard to really say if it will be an every year type of thing. Again, it's his first year getting a lot of time. I am not even going to judge him until he has the reigns all to himself for a year (w/o the worry of someone coming back from injury and taking his starting job).
As for Tony Parker or Steve Nash I don't see the similarities. He's better defensively than Nash if that's any consolation. Who knows what will happen. I just wouldn't judge him by his assist numbers since we all know what type of offense the Kings play.
Injury prone, but it's hard to really say if it will be an every year type of thing. Again, it's his first year getting a lot of time. I am not even going to judge him until he has the reigns all to himself for a year (w/o the worry of someone coming back from injury and taking his starting job).
As for Tony Parker or Steve Nash I don't see the similarities. He's better defensively than Nash if that's any consolation. Who knows what will happen. I just wouldn't judge him by his assist numbers since we all know what type of offense the Kings play.
Absolutely correct. Just because a top-5 pick doesn't guarantee a superstar doesn't mean that it isn't your best chance at a superstar.
It has been statistically proven time and time again that the best chance of finding a superstar is by getting a top-5 pick in the draft, because that is where the vast majority are found. You can still make a horrible decision and pick a bust in the top-5, but that can happen at any spot in the draft.
It has been statistically proven time and time again that the best chance of finding a superstar is by getting a top-5 pick in the draft, because that is where the vast majority are found. You can still make a horrible decision and pick a bust in the top-5, but that can happen at any spot in the draft.
Come on.... So by your estimation that question you asked cannot be answered because nobody in the world under 18 is better then Beno. Or nobody that's 18 that has not played an NBA game is better than Beno... Don't ask the question if you don't want a frank answer.
Rubio, and Holiday are about as sure of a thing as Derrick Rose (if not AS sure of a thing).. Don't tell me you would rather have Beno then Rose. That's just dumb. Watch some college ball this year and you will see Jrue Holiday (UCLA) play some point although he will probably take Westbrook's spot because of Collison going back to play PG. Catch some INTL games and watch Rubio. A lot of his games have feeds to them you can watch online.
I like Beno, but he's not the end all of PGs. There are limits to what he can do/accomplish. There will be PGs coming out in each years draft that will be better than him. It's true.
Rubio, and Holiday are about as sure of a thing as Derrick Rose (if not AS sure of a thing).. Don't tell me you would rather have Beno then Rose. That's just dumb. Watch some college ball this year and you will see Jrue Holiday (UCLA) play some point although he will probably take Westbrook's spot because of Collison going back to play PG. Catch some INTL games and watch Rubio. A lot of his games have feeds to them you can watch online.
I like Beno, but he's not the end all of PGs. There are limits to what he can do/accomplish. There will be PGs coming out in each years draft that will be better than him. It's true.
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Where did those rankings come from?
I was looking at ESPN...
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/stati...pg&qual=false&season=2008&seasontype=2&pos=pg
...and it put him at:
#30 PG for assists
#74 PG for assist/TO ratio
#57 PG for assists per 48
#13 PG at rebounds/game
#25 PG at rebounds per 48
#17 PG at points per game
#14 PG at FG%
etc.
Generally very different figures than what you gave.
Did you use sports.yahoo.com or someplace like that?
I was looking at ESPN...
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/stati...pg&qual=false&season=2008&seasontype=2&pos=pg
...and it put him at:
#30 PG for assists
#74 PG for assist/TO ratio
#57 PG for assists per 48
#13 PG at rebounds/game
#25 PG at rebounds per 48
#17 PG at points per game
#14 PG at FG%
etc.
Generally very different figures than what you gave.
Did you use sports.yahoo.com or someplace like that?
Even though I'm tired of the MLE moves, I don't mind this move at all because a PG can have such an affect of the development of our other young guys which is what we do need.
Putting Douby or Singletary or Cisco or Anthony Williams or Jason Williams at the point I think it would be a disaster for the development of Hawes and Thompson as well as allowing teams to focus in more on Martin which will be frustrating for his development.
At least this has a chance of being a 5 year solution for us. The Moore and SAR signings were set to end weakly from the start.
Biggest risk here is that Beno gets the injury bug and actually can't start. Other than that I think it will be a fair value to good value contract.
Putting Douby or Singletary or Cisco or Anthony Williams or Jason Williams at the point I think it would be a disaster for the development of Hawes and Thompson as well as allowing teams to focus in more on Martin which will be frustrating for his development.
At least this has a chance of being a 5 year solution for us. The Moore and SAR signings were set to end weakly from the start.
Biggest risk here is that Beno gets the injury bug and actually can't start. Other than that I think it will be a fair value to good value contract.
+1
beno did a great job last season, and is probably one of the best FA pg this offseason. i dont doubt his talent, just what we paid. 5 year/32 mil with a players option? i know all the details arent confirmed but i dont like that at all. some might say hes worth it, and they have the right to their opinion. but how much of that is based on whos available now? what about the next draft or next offseason? what if the FA pool next year is a little deeper, will we look back and regret maxing out the MLE on the biggest pg in a small pool of FA pgs.
i really think beno is a decent pg, but would have liked to get him a bit cheaper and maybe a shorter contract. clips werent after him anymore since they got davis and even if we did lose out on him. i would have settle with duhon who reportedly is targeted by the knicks offering a 2 year contract for half the MLE
beno did a great job last season, and is probably one of the best FA pg this offseason. i dont doubt his talent, just what we paid. 5 year/32 mil with a players option? i know all the details arent confirmed but i dont like that at all. some might say hes worth it, and they have the right to their opinion. but how much of that is based on whos available now? what about the next draft or next offseason? what if the FA pool next year is a little deeper, will we look back and regret maxing out the MLE on the biggest pg in a small pool of FA pgs.
i really think beno is a decent pg, but would have liked to get him a bit cheaper and maybe a shorter contract. clips werent after him anymore since they got davis and even if we did lose out on him. i would have settle with duhon who reportedly is targeted by the knicks offering a 2 year contract for half the MLE
it depends on how you see the season saved. he racked up wins for us but that lowered our lottery pick. i'd rather see us rack up as many losses in last years meaningless season. thats 2 years in a row we aren't rolling the dice to get a high draft pick. season one's prize is oden, durant. season 2 rose and beasely. i would feel alot more comfortable if the kings displayed some type of direction of where they are going with the team. the beno signing wasn't too bad. we need a floor general that can actually get the team into sets or we'll be watching alot of one on one basketball.