Ongoing saga of Artest and NY Knicks... (MERGED)
- Thread starter Bricklayer
- Start date
Lee was probably the best YOUNG player Zeek has to offer... Sorry I just don't see NY able to make a decent offer on the guy from the Kings perspective. Better to look to the Heat who can offer ending contracts or picks... Hmmm now that I think of it probably the ONLY way to get anything like a comprable value for Ron is with picks... to under paied and even more under valued due to "self depreciation" on his part.
I'm all for seeing Ron go but there is no hurry to move him, he will NOT devalue over the season... unless he opens his mouth.. well er... anyone offering a cold beer and and a bag of cheetoes?
I'm all for seeing Ron go but there is no hurry to move him, he will NOT devalue over the season... unless he opens his mouth.. well er... anyone offering a cold beer and and a bag of cheetoes?
Likely doesn't work for them though -- they can't carry the crappy PF contracts of Walker, Haslem AND Thomas.
The interesting...ok, well maybe not so interesting but still possible thing that ha popped up wiht the rumors of an 08-09 target date for our free agent push is that Antoine Walker all fo a sudden becoems a viable trading option. If your concern is not this next summer, but the summer after that (08-09) then his contract, which ends that summer (there are two team options which obviously we would not exercise) becomes as valuable as an ender to us if it comes back in return for Kenny's.
The interesting...ok, well maybe not so interesting but still possible thing that ha popped up wiht the rumors of an 08-09 target date for our free agent push is that Antoine Walker all fo a sudden becoems a viable trading option. If your concern is not this next summer, but the summer after that (08-09) then his contract, which ends that summer (there are two team options which obviously we would not exercise) becomes as valuable as an ender to us if it comes back in return for Kenny's.
Not sure if this has been posted earlier, but both the young Knicks we have interest in (Lee and Mardy) seem to be suffering from some injuries.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/07082007/sports/knicks/mardy_kneeds_time_knicks_marc_berman.htm?page=0
MARDY KNEEDS TIME
COLLINS MAY NOT PLAY IN SUMMER LEAGUE
By MARC BERMAN
July 8, 2007 -- The Knicks' medical miseries continue. Backup point guard Mardy Collins yesterday revealed he had arthroscopic surgery on his left knee six weeks ago and David Lee showed up at Las Vegas summer-league practice still not 100 percent.
Collins may not play in the summer league that begins tomorrow vs. Seattle. Lee never was slated to play summer league, but he showed up for practices to continue a marathon rehab from a mysterious right-leg injury that caused him to miss 23 of the last 26 games.
The Knicks could keep Collins secret surgery from becoming public for so long. Collins, who had a strong finish to his rookie year, had loose debris removed from his knee and still was wearing knee bandages during yesterday's Vegas practice. Collins' knee could be a chronic problem because he admitted it was an issue before the Knicks drafted him with the 29th pick in 2006.
If he plays, Collins will see limited minutes but should be ready for training camp in October. Why the Knicks did not announce the surgery six weeks ago is a mystery and it's unknown if they told other teams inquiring about Collins' availability on NBA Draft night.
The Knicks' unwillingness to release information on Collins brings into question what they haven't revealed about Lee's injury.
Yesterday's practice was his first all-out, full-court contact work since the season ended nearly three months ago. The last public diagnosis was that Lee had suffered from a stress reaction.
Collins, who started the last nine games and played in the last 24, said he knew for some time he may need surgery in the future. Even before the draft, it was an issue, Collins told reporters in Vegas.
"After the season, I worked out for a week to see how it felt," Collins said. "We didn't want to wait too long."
It's a troubling sign for the Knicks that Lee had to wait this long before going full steam. When Lee originally hurt his right leg in March, the Knicks' medical staff misdiagnosed it as a sprained ankle and he was listed as day to day. Lee tried two separate comebacks that failed and perhaps worsened his condition.
"This is a good chance to stay in shape in midsummer. I'm continuing to make progress and am almost back to being perfect," Lee said in an interview on MSG Network. "Being back to doing everything I did during the year is wonderful. There are still a couple of things that make it a little sore, drop-stepping. But I'm making progress every day."
A source said Lee will not be offered to the Kings in any Ron Artest package.
"I'm confident I'll be here next year," Lee said. "Being in trade rumors you're mentioned for a reason, other teams want me on their team. But this is the city where I want to win a championship."
Lee will stay as sixth man but his minutes will shrink with the addition of Zach Randolph. Lee said he is looking forward to playing with Randolph.
"We all loved Channing (Frye) as a teammate, he understands it's a business," Lee said. "Isiah (Thomas) felt we needed to get a scorer in that position. I welcome him (Randolph) with open arms. He's a beast to play against so it's good he's on our team."
Collins, meanwhile, could be offered in a trade for Artest. But his knee could be a red flag. He said he is confident he can contribute like he did last season.
"Last season made me believe I can play in this league," said Collins, who averaged 14.8 points and 5.8 assists as a starter.
marc.berman@nypost.com
--------------------------------------------------
While injuries to NBA players are quite common, the nature and extent of these, once known, shall have an obvious impact on their trade values (as also our desire to trade for either of them).
http://www.nypost.com/seven/07082007/sports/knicks/mardy_kneeds_time_knicks_marc_berman.htm?page=0
MARDY KNEEDS TIME
COLLINS MAY NOT PLAY IN SUMMER LEAGUE
By MARC BERMAN
July 8, 2007 -- The Knicks' medical miseries continue. Backup point guard Mardy Collins yesterday revealed he had arthroscopic surgery on his left knee six weeks ago and David Lee showed up at Las Vegas summer-league practice still not 100 percent.
Collins may not play in the summer league that begins tomorrow vs. Seattle. Lee never was slated to play summer league, but he showed up for practices to continue a marathon rehab from a mysterious right-leg injury that caused him to miss 23 of the last 26 games.
The Knicks could keep Collins secret surgery from becoming public for so long. Collins, who had a strong finish to his rookie year, had loose debris removed from his knee and still was wearing knee bandages during yesterday's Vegas practice. Collins' knee could be a chronic problem because he admitted it was an issue before the Knicks drafted him with the 29th pick in 2006.
If he plays, Collins will see limited minutes but should be ready for training camp in October. Why the Knicks did not announce the surgery six weeks ago is a mystery and it's unknown if they told other teams inquiring about Collins' availability on NBA Draft night.
The Knicks' unwillingness to release information on Collins brings into question what they haven't revealed about Lee's injury.
Yesterday's practice was his first all-out, full-court contact work since the season ended nearly three months ago. The last public diagnosis was that Lee had suffered from a stress reaction.
Collins, who started the last nine games and played in the last 24, said he knew for some time he may need surgery in the future. Even before the draft, it was an issue, Collins told reporters in Vegas.
"After the season, I worked out for a week to see how it felt," Collins said. "We didn't want to wait too long."
It's a troubling sign for the Knicks that Lee had to wait this long before going full steam. When Lee originally hurt his right leg in March, the Knicks' medical staff misdiagnosed it as a sprained ankle and he was listed as day to day. Lee tried two separate comebacks that failed and perhaps worsened his condition.
"This is a good chance to stay in shape in midsummer. I'm continuing to make progress and am almost back to being perfect," Lee said in an interview on MSG Network. "Being back to doing everything I did during the year is wonderful. There are still a couple of things that make it a little sore, drop-stepping. But I'm making progress every day."
A source said Lee will not be offered to the Kings in any Ron Artest package.
"I'm confident I'll be here next year," Lee said. "Being in trade rumors you're mentioned for a reason, other teams want me on their team. But this is the city where I want to win a championship."
Lee will stay as sixth man but his minutes will shrink with the addition of Zach Randolph. Lee said he is looking forward to playing with Randolph.
"We all loved Channing (Frye) as a teammate, he understands it's a business," Lee said. "Isiah (Thomas) felt we needed to get a scorer in that position. I welcome him (Randolph) with open arms. He's a beast to play against so it's good he's on our team."
Collins, meanwhile, could be offered in a trade for Artest. But his knee could be a red flag. He said he is confident he can contribute like he did last season.
"Last season made me believe I can play in this league," said Collins, who averaged 14.8 points and 5.8 assists as a starter.
marc.berman@nypost.com
--------------------------------------------------
While injuries to NBA players are quite common, the nature and extent of these, once known, shall have an obvious impact on their trade values (as also our desire to trade for either of them).
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Note: with both guys having opt outs at the end of next year, the trade deadline strategy could become a dead end again -- it adds tremendous uncertainty to the deal for the team trading for the guy. Are we getting him for 2 months? 1 year and 2 months? Forever? Its hard enough to get one of those deals done even without those kind of major valuation questions lingering. Now if they were just TEAM options, it would be ideal -- would work the other way and make the guys more attractive, since the team could always cut them lose if it wanted to. But player options are hard to place a value on. Nobody is going to give up a chunk of their future for a 2 month rental, and no team trying to trade for an ending contract is going to take the chance on a player opting back in and therefore getting stuck with a hefty deal the following year rather than capspace.
Lordy lordy, Berman is just a pit bull on this issue, but note the highlighted quotes from Ron's brother this time (and apparently one who lives with him, so he should know). I assume this is not the same guy on our summer league roster or making such remarks would be very strange indeed:
ISIAH HAS NO FEAR OF ARTEST
By MARC BERMAN
July 9, 2007
LAS VEGAS - Isiah Thomas yesterday admitted he and Ron Artest were often at odds during their three years together in Indiana, but noted the controversial small forward played his best ball under him for Indiana.
Artest, a native of Queensbridge, was in Vegas this weekend with his kids, watching his brother, Daniel, play for the Kings' summer-league team.
While the Knicks are trying to land Artest in a trade, they are unwilling to part with their two top prospects, David Lee and Renaldo Balkman.
Reached at his hotel, Daniel Artest told The Post last night, "I'm not disrespecting David's game, but I think Ron is a better player than David Lee. I understand about their long term, but they should go for it now. David's going to get less touches with Zach [Randolph] anyway."
Indeed, it makes for slim pickings for Kings GM Geoff Petrie, who stands to lose Artest to free agency after next season.
"He's been quiet about it, but he wants to come home," said Daniel, who lives with his brother in Sacramento.
The good news is the competition for Artest won't be too fierce. Most NBA coaches are wary of coaching the hot-tempered Artest. That is not a problem for Thomas.
Thomas, following yesterday's summer-league practice, was peppered with Artest questions and tip-toed around tampering rules forbidding GMs from talking about opposing players under contract.
Thomas confirmed he and Artest had their blow-ups.
"It's safe to say any player I've coached has had times [where] we didn't get along," he said. "There are times where they don't like me. But that's OK. I'm not trying to be liked. I'm trying to coach them.
"It's also safe to say you look back at any of those guys who played for me, they played some of the best basketball of their lives playing for me," Thomas added.
With Lee and Balkman off limits, the Knicks have made available veterans Jared Jeffries and Malik Rose, neither of whom can be paired with Nate Robinson, Mardy Collins, Randolph Morris and their two new draft picks, Wilson Chandler and Demetris Nichols. Obviously, Petrie would want Lee foremost.
Thomas emphasized Lee is not on the table, unless it's Kobe Bryant and Kevin Garnett.
"I get [ticked] off when they ask me about [Lee]," Thomas said. "I really do. If you're asking about him for the right guy, we like [Lee]. We put a lot into him. We want to keep him. We have no intention of moving him."
When first asked about Artest, Thomas said, "I can talk about the past. I'm trying not to get fined. I enjoyed coaching our team in Indiana and guys we had, and Ron was one of those guys. He was playing well; our team was playing well."
Thomas believes he and Artest could have won a title together in Indiana if Larry Bird didn't fire him. Coming on the heels of the Zach Randolph trade, the Knicks believe adding Artest might make them a title contender.
"The group we had in Indiana, I felt had we stayed together, we could have won a championship," Thomas said. "And I feel similar to this group I'm putting together now. If we can stay together and go at it for three, four years, add a piece here and there, I'm confident it's a group that can play for it."
marc.berman@nypost.com
http://www.nypost.com/seven/0709200..._has_no_fear_of_artest_knicks_marc_berman.htm
The concern I would have at a certain point here is that the Knicks might very well have taken themselves out of the running by basically being unwilling to offer anything of value. But then all of this stuff, in the papers, about Ron wanting to come back to NY, combined with him having an opt out at the end of next year could 1) eliminate (indeed I think already has) New York's motivation to sweeten the pot if he's going to come their way anyway next year; 2) make it even harder to trade him elsewhere because the trading partner would expect to lose him to New York in a year; and 3) of course put us in position to lose him for absolutely nothing.
Edit -- just reread that -- unbelievably I think that IS the brother on our summer league roster wiht those quotes. That's pretty cheeky to be on a team's summer league roster and to go on record as suggesting not only does Ron want to return to New York, but that the Knicks should make the trade. Hmm...maybe Geoff put him up to it to pressure Zeke into giving up Lee.
ISIAH HAS NO FEAR OF ARTEST
By MARC BERMAN
July 9, 2007
LAS VEGAS - Isiah Thomas yesterday admitted he and Ron Artest were often at odds during their three years together in Indiana, but noted the controversial small forward played his best ball under him for Indiana.
Artest, a native of Queensbridge, was in Vegas this weekend with his kids, watching his brother, Daniel, play for the Kings' summer-league team.
While the Knicks are trying to land Artest in a trade, they are unwilling to part with their two top prospects, David Lee and Renaldo Balkman.
Reached at his hotel, Daniel Artest told The Post last night, "I'm not disrespecting David's game, but I think Ron is a better player than David Lee. I understand about their long term, but they should go for it now. David's going to get less touches with Zach [Randolph] anyway."
Indeed, it makes for slim pickings for Kings GM Geoff Petrie, who stands to lose Artest to free agency after next season.
"He's been quiet about it, but he wants to come home," said Daniel, who lives with his brother in Sacramento.
The good news is the competition for Artest won't be too fierce. Most NBA coaches are wary of coaching the hot-tempered Artest. That is not a problem for Thomas.
Thomas, following yesterday's summer-league practice, was peppered with Artest questions and tip-toed around tampering rules forbidding GMs from talking about opposing players under contract.
Thomas confirmed he and Artest had their blow-ups.
"It's safe to say any player I've coached has had times [where] we didn't get along," he said. "There are times where they don't like me. But that's OK. I'm not trying to be liked. I'm trying to coach them.
"It's also safe to say you look back at any of those guys who played for me, they played some of the best basketball of their lives playing for me," Thomas added.
With Lee and Balkman off limits, the Knicks have made available veterans Jared Jeffries and Malik Rose, neither of whom can be paired with Nate Robinson, Mardy Collins, Randolph Morris and their two new draft picks, Wilson Chandler and Demetris Nichols. Obviously, Petrie would want Lee foremost.
Thomas emphasized Lee is not on the table, unless it's Kobe Bryant and Kevin Garnett.
"I get [ticked] off when they ask me about [Lee]," Thomas said. "I really do. If you're asking about him for the right guy, we like [Lee]. We put a lot into him. We want to keep him. We have no intention of moving him."
When first asked about Artest, Thomas said, "I can talk about the past. I'm trying not to get fined. I enjoyed coaching our team in Indiana and guys we had, and Ron was one of those guys. He was playing well; our team was playing well."
Thomas believes he and Artest could have won a title together in Indiana if Larry Bird didn't fire him. Coming on the heels of the Zach Randolph trade, the Knicks believe adding Artest might make them a title contender.
"The group we had in Indiana, I felt had we stayed together, we could have won a championship," Thomas said. "And I feel similar to this group I'm putting together now. If we can stay together and go at it for three, four years, add a piece here and there, I'm confident it's a group that can play for it."
marc.berman@nypost.com
http://www.nypost.com/seven/0709200..._has_no_fear_of_artest_knicks_marc_berman.htm
The concern I would have at a certain point here is that the Knicks might very well have taken themselves out of the running by basically being unwilling to offer anything of value. But then all of this stuff, in the papers, about Ron wanting to come back to NY, combined with him having an opt out at the end of next year could 1) eliminate (indeed I think already has) New York's motivation to sweeten the pot if he's going to come their way anyway next year; 2) make it even harder to trade him elsewhere because the trading partner would expect to lose him to New York in a year; and 3) of course put us in position to lose him for absolutely nothing.
Edit -- just reread that -- unbelievably I think that IS the brother on our summer league roster wiht those quotes. That's pretty cheeky to be on a team's summer league roster and to go on record as suggesting not only does Ron want to return to New York, but that the Knicks should make the trade. Hmm...maybe Geoff put him up to it to pressure Zeke into giving up Lee.
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Agreed with you here Brick...Berman is on a one man mission to attempt to bring Artest to NY. It would be fitting really, it would. But I'd expect both Lee/Collins in return for Ron-Ron.
Re-reading these articles in the post, NYDN and newsweek, these journalists are just baffoons. Must be the water in NY...
But they make it sound like Lee is the sought after commodity and can't be had for just Artest...WTF is that? Artest is being pursued by NY( at least in the papers) and they don't WANT to include Lee...they basically want Artest for Jeffries and Robinson is the gist of what I get out of it. Here's an example of the media putting their twist on a story to make it sound better than what it really is. This is so bogus.
Re-reading these articles in the post, NYDN and newsweek, these journalists are just baffoons. Must be the water in NY...
But they make it sound like Lee is the sought after commodity and can't be had for just Artest...WTF is that? Artest is being pursued by NY( at least in the papers) and they don't WANT to include Lee...they basically want Artest for Jeffries and Robinson is the gist of what I get out of it. Here's an example of the media putting their twist on a story to make it sound better than what it really is. This is so bogus.
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Balkman off table too
http://www.nypost.com/seven/0709200..._has_no_fear_of_artest_knicks_marc_berman.htm
Balkman Also Off The Table In Artest Trade Talk
July 9, 2007 - 1:04 pm
New York Post
The New York Post spoke with Ron Artest's brother Daniel who revealed that Ron wants to play for the Knicks. "He's been quiet about it, but he wants to come home," said Daniel who lives with Ron in Sacramento.
Isiah Thomas has made it clear that he will not trade David Lee in a deal to bring Ron Artest home to New York.
Apparently, Renaldo Balkman is off limits too.
Jared Jeffries and Malik Rose are available, as well as Nate Robinson, Mardy Collins, Randolph Morris and this year's draft picks, Wilson Chandler and Demetris Nichols.
The Knicks also have the expiring contracts of Dan Dickau and Fred Jones to dangle. Trading the two together for Artest could not happen until later this summer under salary cap rules.
The Knicks are pursuing Artest on the premise that a frontcourt featuring Eddy Curry, Zach Randolph, Artest, Lee and Balkman could compete for the NBA championship.
"If we can stay together and go at it for three, four years, add a piece here and there, I'm confident it's a group that can play for [the title]," Thomas said of his current unit.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/0709200..._has_no_fear_of_artest_knicks_marc_berman.htm
Balkman Also Off The Table In Artest Trade Talk
July 9, 2007 - 1:04 pm
New York Post
The New York Post spoke with Ron Artest's brother Daniel who revealed that Ron wants to play for the Knicks. "He's been quiet about it, but he wants to come home," said Daniel who lives with Ron in Sacramento.
Isiah Thomas has made it clear that he will not trade David Lee in a deal to bring Ron Artest home to New York.
Apparently, Renaldo Balkman is off limits too.
Jared Jeffries and Malik Rose are available, as well as Nate Robinson, Mardy Collins, Randolph Morris and this year's draft picks, Wilson Chandler and Demetris Nichols.
The Knicks also have the expiring contracts of Dan Dickau and Fred Jones to dangle. Trading the two together for Artest could not happen until later this summer under salary cap rules.
The Knicks are pursuing Artest on the premise that a frontcourt featuring Eddy Curry, Zach Randolph, Artest, Lee and Balkman could compete for the NBA championship.
"If we can stay together and go at it for three, four years, add a piece here and there, I'm confident it's a group that can play for [the title]," Thomas said of his current unit.
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New York is acting like Ron going to NYC in the next offseason is a certainty -- do they really think Ron is going to opt out of his contract and take the MLE to play for the Knicks? How is Ron going to accept not only not getting a raise, but taking a pay cut? I mean, you never know what Ron is going to do, but this strikes me as faintly ludicrous.
And if Ron won't take the MLE, do they really think someone is going to take on their crap in a S&T?
If the Knicks really want Artest, this is the opportunity.
And if Ron won't take the MLE, do they really think someone is going to take on their crap in a S&T?
If the Knicks really want Artest, this is the opportunity.
All Lee would be for NY is a backup PF for the foreseeable future now that Randolph is there. Also, resigning him in a few years is not likely since 1) Randolph will still be there and 2) He will want more money than they should pay him. If they don't want KT or SAR to be their backup then swing a three way with Miami whereby the Heat get Bibby and then the Heat ship NY Haslem or Simien.
Despite the headline, I continue to have questions about how much Zeke really wants Ron Artest in town, with him having to play his bail bondsman and take the fall if Mt. St. Artest blows once again. By taking a wave at him, and then making it impossible to get him by setting aside the few fairly middling assets you have, it almost looks to me like its more for show for the locals. Nor do Isiah's statements exactly ring with endorsement. Its almost like he is saying, I know people say I SHOULD be interested, but been there done that, and .
.