Trade Suggestion: Fox for Simmons + #28

#91
No to Kuzma, No to Porzingas, No to Simmons
One of these is not like the others...

That is, one is a fleet-footed 24-year-old point-forward with elite vision and size, as well as a perennial DPOY candidate capable of not just guarding but straight-up locking down opposing players at all five positions on any given night. The other two are... not.

Simmons' poor shooting is a problem. Whatever is going on between his ears that has made him fearful of shooting is an even bigger problem. His contract is hardly ideal given his flaws. There are certainly risks and fit concerns associated with trading for him. But Kings fans are absolutely crazy if trading for Ben Simmons is a "no" under all circumstances. For Fox? Nah. In a package that includes Haliburton? I'd pass on that, too. But for say, Hield, Bagley, and a draft pick? I'd be giving that serious consideration, and Philly should, too, in such a scenario.

Simmons is rightfully being criticized for his passivity on the offensive end, particularly during game 7 against the Hawks. But he also chased Trae Young all over the court throughout that game, and is partly responsible for Young's abysmal 5-23 showing. The 6'11", 240 lb. guy put in work on the 6'1", 180 lb. guy. There aren't many players with Simmons' size in the NBA today who can do that. And none of them have Simmons' court vision or playmaking ability.

Plenty of Kings fans would be thrilled with the prospect of drafting Scottie Barnes or Jalen Johnson this year, two young wings with excellent defensive potential and shooting struggles of their own. Do either project to be as skilled as Simmons? It's unlikely. If they did, they'd be more regularly in the conversation at the very top of the draft. Ben Simmons is an oddity with respect to modern NBA offense, but he's also unique in a lot of ways that can really help a team that doesn't have to slot him alongside a once-in-a-generation center like Joel Embiid.

Get him out of a nasty media market like Philadelphia with all of the "Trust the Process" championship-or-bust expectations, and plop him into a much cozier media market like Sacramento, where nothing more than an 8th seeded finish would be celebrated with tremendous fanfare, and I suspect that Simmons will thrive with fewer external pressures. Does that speak well of him as a player with the necessary killer instinct to become a true superstar? No, not really. But I also don't think he needs to be that guy. I think he'd function well in a Draymond Green-like role for the Kings, keying the defense and playmaking from the high post, with the added wrinkle of being able to push what would instantly become the most dynamic fastbreak in the league alongside Fox and Hali.

I should footnote all of this by saying that I've never been a very big fan of Simmons. But for all of the complaining that Kings fans do about this roster, I'm always surprised at how often fans recoil at the notion of improving the team's talent level. Simmons is an all-star level talent. He's an elite playmaker, defender, and rebounder. No, you don't trade away everything for him. No, you probably shouldn't trade your best player or most promising prospect for him, either. But if you can buy low, a small market backwater like Sacramento that hasn't sniffed the playoffs in a decade-and-a-half can't blanch at such an opportunity. Players of Ben Simmons' caliber never force their way to Sacramento. They don't sign with Sacramento as free agents. Frankly, a moribund franchise like the Kings doesn't get the luxury of considering Simmons' shortcomings. If a reasonable deal were to present itself that doesn't involve Fox or Hali, then I fully expect McNair to be working the phones.
 
#92
No to Kuzma, No to Porzingas, No to Simmons

I hope Monte only makes trades that IMPROVE our team!

Would rather keep Buddy, Barnes, Bagley than trade into even bigger over pay contracts
Get a great lotto ball tonight, Draft a winner, concentrate on signing TD and Holmes

I have faith in you Monte, Dont make a bonehead win now trade!
Id entertain Porzingis
 
#93
One of these is not like the others...

That is, one is a fleet-footed 24-year-old point-forward with elite vision and size, as well as a perennial DPOY candidate capable of not just guarding but straight-up locking down opposing players at all five positions on any given night. The other two are... not.

Simmons' poor shooting is a problem. Whatever is going on between his ears that has made him fearful of shooting is an even bigger problem. His contract is hardly ideal given his flaws. There are certainly risks and fit concerns associated with trading for him. But Kings fans are absolutely crazy if trading for Ben Simmons is a "no" under all circumstances. For Fox? Nah. In a package that includes Haliburton? I'd pass on that, too. But for say, Hield, Bagley, and a draft pick? I'd be giving that serious consideration, and Philly should, too, in such a scenario.

Simmons is rightfully being criticized for his passivity on the offensive end, particularly during game 7 against the Hawks. But he also chased Trae Young all over the court throughout that game, and is partly responsible for Young's abysmal 5-23 showing. The 6'11", 240 lb. guy put in work on the 6'1", 180 lb. guy. There aren't many players with Simmons' size in the NBA today who can do that. And none of them have Simmons' court vision or playmaking ability.

Plenty of Kings fans would be thrilled with the prospect of drafting Scottie Barnes or Jalen Johnson this year, two young wings with excellent defensive potential and shooting struggles of their own. Do either project to be as skilled as Simmons? It's unlikely. If they did, they'd be more regularly in the conversation at the very top of the draft. Ben Simmons is an oddity with respect to modern NBA offense, but he's also unique in a lot of ways that can really help a team that doesn't have to slot him alongside a once-in-a-generation center like Joel Embiid.

Get him out of a nasty media market like Philadelphia with all of the "Trust the Process" championship-or-bust expectations, and plop him into a much cozier media market like Sacramento, where nothing more than an 8th seeded finish would be celebrated with tremendous fanfare, and I suspect that Simmons will thrive with fewer external pressures. Does that speak well of him as a player with the necessary killer instinct to become a true superstar? No, not really. But I also don't think he needs to be that guy. I think he'd function well in a Draymond Green-like role for the Kings, keying the defense and playmaking from the high post, with the added wrinkle of being able to push what would instantly become the most dynamic fastbreak in the league alongside Fox and Hali.

I should footnote all of this by saying that I've never been a very big fan of Simmons. But for all of the complaining that Kings fans do about this roster, I'm always surprised at how often fans recoil at the notion of improving the team's talent level. Simmons is an all-star level talent. He's an elite playmaker, defender, and rebounder. No, you don't trade away everything for him. No, you probably shouldn't trade your best player or most promising prospect for him, either. But if you can buy low, a small market backwater like Sacramento that hasn't sniffed the playoffs in a decade-and-a-half can't blanch at such an opportunity. Players of Ben Simmons' caliber never force their way to Sacramento. They don't sign with Sacramento as free agents. Frankly, a moribund franchise like the Kings doesn't get the luxury of considering Simmons' shortcomings. If a reasonable deal were to present itself that doesn't involve Fox or Hali, then I fully expect McNair to be working the phones.
Dude stands at the dunker spot for 15 seconds killing any spacing possible I don’t want him
 

Warhawk

Give blood and save a life!
Staff member
#94
I don't know that anyone would objectively reject the idea of having Simmons on the Kings, it is just the price of doing so that would scare me. That contract is horrendous (especially given his offensive limitations/role described below) and I certainly wouldn't consider giving up Fox or Hali for him. I generally agree with the below, but that contract!!!

I think he'd function well in a Draymond Green-like role for the Kings, keying the defense and playmaking from the high post, with the added wrinkle of being able to push what would instantly become the most dynamic fastbreak in the league alongside Fox and Hali.

I should footnote all of this by saying that I've never been a very big fan of Simmons. But for all of the complaining that Kings fans do about this roster, I'm always surprised at how often fans recoil at the notion of improving the team's talent level. Simmons is an all-star level talent. He's an elite playmaker, defender, and rebounder. No, you don't trade away everything for him. No, you probably shouldn't trade your best player or most promising prospect for him, either. But if you can buy low, a small market backwater like Sacramento that hasn't sniffed the playoffs in a decade-and-a-half can't blanch at such an opportunity. Players of Ben Simmons' caliber never force their way to Sacramento. They don't sign with Sacramento as free agents. Frankly, a moribund franchise like the Kings doesn't get the luxury of considering Simmons' shortcomings. If a reasonable deal were to present itself that doesn't involve Fox or Hali, then I fully expect McNair to be working the phones.
 
#95
I guess my point was I do not think we should trade into terrible contracts
Even if Philly or Mavs would even do a Buddy plus future 1st for Porzingas or Simmons
Which I dont think they would do
Buddy $61.5m 3 yrs, Porzingas 101.5M 3 yrs, Simmons 146.7M 4 yrs

So we loose Buddy's shooting and a 1st for less shooting and a better defensive player
Plus 40 to 85 mil more salary?

If that is the cost to get a low seed in the playoffs next year
I want no part of it

I guess I really like my $45 season ticket price
 
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#96
Don’t think Fox should try to close that gap. He can improve his shooting a bit, but his biggest remaining leap on offense is controlling tempo, facilitating, and playing more like Chris Paul. So on offense, if there is a gap to close, it’s playing more like Paul.

On defense, where Fox has several leaps remaining, he needs to watch Gary Payton film.
100% agree.
 
#97
https://www.foxsports.com/stories/n...ason-struggles-philadelphia-76ers-joel-embiid

Reading this article made me pause a bit about trading for ben. I just thought all he has to do is work on his shot and confidence, but the more I read about what happened in the past (being babied, family and agent involved, not working with the team and ignoring what the team wanted him to work on in the offseason), it’s not just in the court issues with him. It’s not like the Webber argument of trading for someone with off court issues vs someone with on court issues. This article makes me thing ben has both issues.
Sort of in line with your point, sort of petty on my part, but Ben has always acted like he is too busy/important to play on our national team. Sure, he can do what he wants. But the players I grew up watching (Andrew Gaze, Shane Heal) and support today (Patty, Jo Ingles, etc) always seemed to really enjoy playing for the Boomers. Again - he's not obliged to play. But Ben's attitude just seems a bit less fun.
 
I just dont understand how a BBall player refuses to learn to shoot a basketball. In 5 years with Philly he doesn't have the time to practice a jump shot or free throw, at all, ever?!? This should have been the first thing he worked on since he's got passing, handles, BBIQ and defense in spades. He seems to think he's good enough, to me that's stubborn and arrogant. Not sure I'd want that around my locker room. The opposite, as others have mentioned, is that he's not confident, which is an even bigger red flag.

If we traded anyone for him it should not be Buddy(he needs shooters) and I dont want to trade Fox or Hali. So to me Simmons isn't available, unless philly wants our bench/Barnes(and ?)+filler, and/or picks.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
The rumors today on Simmons is that the reason he hasn't improved his weaknesses is because his camp coddles him. Fits the modern NBA narrative I guess, but he's still had coaches, Embiid, and others making demands of him and I know Embiid wouldn't stand for any of it. Although that's why the long running narrative was also that they are incompatible and Philly needs to choose one. Had they done that 2-3 seasons ago they would have gotten far greater return.
 
The rumors today on Simmons is that the reason he hasn't improved his weaknesses is because his camp coddles him. Fits the modern NBA narrative I guess, but he's still had coaches, Embiid, and others making demands of him and I know Embiid wouldn't stand for any of it. Although that's why the long running narrative was also that they are incompatible and Philly needs to choose one. Had they done that 2-3 seasons ago they would have gotten far greater return.
Plus he got his big contract.
 
The rumors today on Simmons is that the reason he hasn't improved his weaknesses is because his camp coddles him. Fits the modern NBA narrative I guess, but he's still had coaches, Embiid, and others making demands of him and I know Embiid wouldn't stand for any of it. Although that's why the long running narrative was also that they are incompatible and Philly needs to choose one. Had they done that 2-3 seasons ago they would have gotten far greater return.
Please don’t tell me “rumors” is that bull crap that screaming A Smith out out on espn
 
The rumors today on Simmons is that the reason he hasn't improved his weaknesses is because his camp coddles him. Fits the modern NBA narrative I guess, but he's still had coaches, Embiid, and others making demands of him and I know Embiid wouldn't stand for any of it. Although that's why the long running narrative was also that they are incompatible and Philly needs to choose one. Had they done that 2-3 seasons ago they would have gotten far greater return.
I think Morey moves Simmons this off season. He and Doc Rivers are not exactly the types to wait around and see if the player changes his stripes, especially since they didn't draft him.

Simmons will go to the highest bidder and looking at Morey's history, he will be looking for offense and more offense.

I'm not sure if the Kings have the firepower to land Simmons, but maybe they can make it a 3 way or 4 way trade somewhere and land something good for Buddy in a trade (i.e. good young players or draft picks).
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
Please don’t tell me “rumors” is that bull crap that screaming A Smith out out on espn
It's been printed elsewhere. Although yes, Smith said it too. It doesn't seem to different than what many other top draft picks have in their camps as well. The Balls and the Bagleys are the ones that make a lot of noise, Zion's camp is already doing it. Too many players seem to have visions of what skillset they should feature so they can get the next big contract for the highest bidder rather than how they fit in with the team that pays them now and this is no doubt driven by agents and family managers.
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
For the sake of argument let's say yes to Simmons and Porzingis.

I don't know that Philly or Dallas considers either of these deals but let's say that the 76ers see Fox as a much better running mate with Embiid and Dallas is desperate to break up Luka and Kristaps and get out from under that contract.

Fox for Simmons and #28
Barnes and Bagley for Porzingis

Draft (just looking at who major mocks have available)
#9 Moses Moody or Franz Wagner
#28 Day'Ron Sharpe
#39 Isaiah Todd

I'm also high on Cockburn, Hyland, etc but let's go with these.

C Porzingis
PF Simmons
SF Moody or Wagner
SG Hield
PG Haliburton

I'm not saying the Kings necessarily should pursue one or both of these trades, but it's hard to deny that it's a much better balanced starting five, especially if Porzingis can stay healthy and regain some lateral quickness.

Add a big body to protect Porzingis from guys like Jokic and Embiid and use pick #28 & #39 for bench depth along with Woodard, Wright, and Davis (if resigned) and you have a team with tons of shooting and built to take advantage of Simmons' strengths and hide his glaring weakness.

And it's a much better fit for Porzingis too. Doncic and Simmons have some similarities but Luka shoots 21+ shots a game to Simmons 11 and has a 36% usage to Ben's 20%. More ball movement and more shots to go around.
 
For the sake of argument let's say yes to Simmons and Porzingis.

I don't know that Philly or Dallas considers either of these deals but let's say that the 76ers see Fox as a much better running mate with Embiid and Dallas is desperate to break up Luka and Kristaps and get out from under that contract.

Fox for Simmons and #28
Barnes and Bagley for Porzingis
I am still not ok with a Fox Simmons Trade
I am not sure Dallas trades their #2 star for Barnes Who they gave us for peanuts
Buddy gets them a starting SG
And Buddy and Bagley does not want to be here anyway Fox does


So a Buddy,Bagley for Porzingis could get us to a Similar place:

Fox, Wright
Hali, TD
Wagner/Johnson, Woodard
Barnes,Isaac Todd -2nd rd,Metu
Porzingis,Jones
 
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For the sake of argument let's say yes to Simmons and Porzingis.

I don't know that Philly or Dallas considers either of these deals but let's say that the 76ers see Fox as a much better running mate with Embiid and Dallas is desperate to break up Luka and Kristaps and get out from under that contract.

Fox for Simmons and #28
Barnes and Bagley for Porzingis

Draft (just looking at who major mocks have available)
#9 Moses Moody or Franz Wagner
#28 Day'Ron Sharpe
#39 Isaiah Todd

I'm also high on Cockburn, Hyland, etc but let's go with these.

C Porzingis
PF Simmons
SF Moody or Wagner
SG Hield
PG Haliburton

I'm not saying the Kings necessarily should pursue one or both of these trades, but it's hard to deny that it's a much better balanced starting five, especially if Porzingis can stay healthy and regain some lateral quickness.

Add a big body to protect Porzingis from guys like Jokic and Embiid and use pick #28 & #39 for bench depth along with Woodard, Wright, and Davis (if resigned) and you have a team with tons of shooting and built to take advantage of Simmons' strengths and hide his glaring weakness.

And it's a much better fit for Porzingis too. Doncic and Simmons have some similarities but Luka shoots 21+ shots a game to Simmons 11 and has a 36% usage to Ben's 20%. More ball movement and more shots to go around.
I would jump on that. I am still high on both guys despite their post season. With that roster our passing becomes elite, our spacing becomes elite, and we have 3 point shooters for days. Also Ben playing a Draymond Green role in this lineup is his ideal role in my opinion. Like you said, the only glaring weakness is our defense at the center position.

I am as attached to Fox as the next guy, but I just know next season will just be more of the same. 30 - 40 wins, some growth and no post season. I am pretty desperate for a shake up lol. If Simmons and Porz go back to their regular season ways, and Simmons even thrives as a point forward, and Haliburton improves, then this team is more than just a 7th or 8th seed.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
From what I’ve read, simmons doesn’t want to play the 4 or have the ball taken out of his hands.
That is the assertion around the league and that is a shame. Although it certainly also nukes his trade value which is a LOL for folks that find the Process to have been distasteful.
 

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
The more I hear about Simmons the less I like him.
Weeding out what is true and what is a dogpile is murky waters. A few years ago this guy was another unicorn talent and now he is a boat anchor. Truth is somewhere in between but where? I think I'd chance it with him before I touched KP or any of the other let's buy talent/pick by taking on a terrible contract that's been bandied about.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
6 foot 8 Tyreke Evans with even a worse jump shot.
I think a lot of teams around the league are overly worried about taking the ball out of their star player's hands. Crafty playmakers can be just as effective if not more effective catching the ball and creating against a defense that is already rotating and out of position. Having multiple playmakers on your team is only a problem if none of them wants to shoot or all of them want to shoot all the time. Tyreke would have been effective in an off the ball role if he took the time to perfect his outside jumper and the same is true for Ben Simmons. While I think Tetsujin is right that their desire to put up shots (or layups at least) couldn't be more diametrically opposed, they both seem to suffer from the same fatal flaw of letting their ego get in the way of improving their game or fitting in with a team concept that might not always revolve around them.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
I think a lot of teams around the league are overly worried about taking the ball out of their star player's hands. Crafty playmakers can be just as effective if not more effective catching the ball and creating against a defense that is already rotating and out of position. Having multiple playmakers on your team is only a problem if none of them wants to shoot or all of them want to shoot all the time. Tyreke would have been effective in an off the ball role if he took the time to perfect his outside jumper and the same is true for Ben Simmons. While I think Tetsujin is right that their desire to put up shots (or layups at least) couldn't be more diametrically opposed, they both seem to suffer from the same fatal flaw of letting their ego get in the way of improving their game or fitting in with a team concept that might not always revolve around them.
In fairness to Reke, he did wind up becoming a pretty consistent shooter and off-ball player after we traded him to New Orleans. Unfortunately the injuries and drug issues got in his way.
 
For the sake of argument let's say yes to Simmons and Porzingis.

I don't know that Philly or Dallas considers either of these deals but let's say that the 76ers see Fox as a much better running mate with Embiid and Dallas is desperate to break up Luka and Kristaps and get out from under that contract.

Fox for Simmons and #28
Barnes and Bagley for Porzingis

Draft (just looking at who major mocks have available)
#9 Moses Moody or Franz Wagner
#28 Day'Ron Sharpe
#39 Isaiah Todd

I'm also high on Cockburn, Hyland, etc but let's go with these.

C Porzingis
PF Simmons
SF Moody or Wagner
SG Hield
PG Haliburton

I'm not saying the Kings necessarily should pursue one or both of these trades, but it's hard to deny that it's a much better balanced starting five, especially if Porzingis can stay healthy and regain some lateral quickness.

Add a big body to protect Porzingis from guys like Jokic and Embiid and use pick #28 & #39 for bench depth along with Woodard, Wright, and Davis (if resigned) and you have a team with tons of shooting and built to take advantage of Simmons' strengths and hide his glaring weakness.

And it's a much better fit for Porzingis too. Doncic and Simmons have some similarities but Luka shoots 21+ shots a game to Simmons 11 and has a 36% usage to Ben's 20%. More ball movement and more shots to go around.
I posted a very similar variation to this in another thread.

However, I’d flip Bagley, Wright, and #28 for Porzingis. Gives Dallas two expirings to go after another big name to pair with Doncic and a cheap rookie contract. That leaves us with…

PG - Halliburton
SG - Hield / James / Ramsey
SF - Barnes / Woodard
PF - Simmons
C - Porzingis / Metu / Jones
Picks - #9 & #39

Like you said, it would be a very well balanced team and be almost as good of a fit as you can put around Simmons.