Michael Porter Jr

bajaden

Hall of Famer
You're one of the people here who's highest on Porter so I'm curious if you can answer this for me....

I watched the McDonald's All American game and while Porter did win the MVP award, he made only 6 shots in that game, missed all 4 of his threes, and of those 6 shots 1 of them was a cherry picking dunk, 1 was an alley-oop, four were right under the basket, and 1 was a nice dribble drive and layup. Most of his drives got cut off and he was basically 0 for 7 on anything more than 5 feet from the hoop. For a guy billed as a smooth wing athlete, he sure looked a lot like a tweener PF in that game. Collin Sexton was the standout star of the night for me and my opinion of Porter actually went down after that performance.

Then I watched the Nike Hoop Summit. He did make a pull-up three in that game but other than that it was the same story. Free throws and open-court dunks. I have no doubts about his ability to finish plays above the rim or take advantage of mistakes under the basket because of his size and hops but so far in these two marquee games he's 1 for 8 on threes with a funky shooting motion that doesn't strike me as conducive to high percentage repeatability in the NBA and he's living at the line on some questionable contact calls rather than making tough shots. He's getting to the basket but when he does get there he's getting stuffed like crazy.

Now that's two games and there's some All-Star game matador defense played on both sides there, but it's at least against elite competition. High school games don't really tell me much because some of the competition is truly awful. I still remember watching Perry Jones play in High School and thinking "wow, this kid is going to be the next Tracy McGrady!" and then after a disappointing two years at Baylor it turns out he's not even an NBA player. Anybody 6'9" or taller who can jump like that and handle the ball in the open floor is going to be a monster against High School competition. Things get considerably more difficult when height alone is no longer the ultimate trump card and Porter has a similarly skinny frame.

So I said there'd be a question in here didn't I? This is what I'm wondering -- because you said you've watched Porter play a ton and I take your word for it -- do you think these high-ceiling projections for him are really reflective of his overall skill level or is it possible the dazzling athleticism, ability to finish above the rim in the open floor, and pull-up in the midrange (because even a high school three is an NBA midrange jumper) where his high release makes him basically unblockable in High School is inflating his value just a bit? Huge scoring numbers are nice but it's High School, the real question is does he look like an NBA star? I don't watch a lot of high school ball outside of the big All Star games so the few times I've been able to watch him play I see a guy who doesn't hustle on defense, struggles to put the ball in the basket any time he takes contact, and utilizes a rhythm hesitation dribble to get off a three point shot that rarely goes in. That's not encouraging at all!

Speaking of which... one of the biggest selling points for Porter has been his knockdown three point jumper so I'm most surprised to find that one of my biggest question marks right now is how he's going to find success shooting the ball the way he does. When I watched Lonzo Ball at UCLA I thought to myself "this is a guy who can't shoot" and yet there it was on the page: 55% from the field, 41% from three. How could my eyes be so wrong compared to the cold hard data? And then he gets to the NBA and he's an abysmal shooter in his rookie season. Suddenly it becomes very apparent that his non-existent mid range game is a liability because he can't live on dunks and layups like he did in college and those slingshot threes are streaky as hell. I don't think the situation is as dire for Porter by any means but it's a similar case of the eye-test not matching the stats for me.

I believe you were with me there for a little while in believing in Perry Jones. Is there any sense for you that Porter could end up turning out the same way? There's no "gotcha" in this for me, I'm just trying to understand if I'm missing something here or if maybe there's just a lot of follow-the-leader and confirmation bias going on with this guy. Obviously we need a SF and Porter has been billed as a huge wing with insane shooting talent and bounce and top of the charts athleticism who can create his own shots all over the floor. If that's the case how come he didn't show it in these All Star games? Why does he seem to have trouble getting by defenders in the half court?

Kevin Durant has been a popular comparison but if Porter had come into college and averaged 26 and 11 with 2 blocks and 2 steals per game like Durant did we wouldn't even be having this conversation. I don't want to draft a guy because he resembles Durant a little -- because we need a SF and the most optimistic of projections have Porter scrapping the surface of KD's MVP level talent. I want to feel confident that I'm drafting a player who will be a star in the NBA. With his massive production in college KD left little doubt about where his future lied. Unfortunately for Michael Porter he didn't get that chance. Well actually, he could have given himself that chance if he stayed at Missouri another year. I'm not going to hold that against him but I'm also not going to automatically give him credit for something he hasn't done. I have some doubts about his ability to excel even in college. Maybe that back injury was already an issue and that's why he didn't look good in the All Star games. Certainly that was the case for Harry Giles' short-lived college career.

This is a lot of rambling nonsense, I'm just trying to give you some sense of where my doubts come from. The risk with this guy is massive. If you pick him at #2 and he's Kevin Durant, we're in business! If you pick him at #2 and he's closer to Perry Jones than we're absolutely sunk. We've just blown the best chance this franchise has had in 30 years to propel itself forward with one draft pick. I can't justify that level of risk to myself. If there's some magical footage out there that involves more than dunking and shooting pull up jumpers on average high school players I'd love to see it! Especially if our front office is serious about potentially picking this kid.
Hmmm, not sure how to answer this exactly. If I've given anyone the idea that Porter is my first choice, then I apologize, because he's not. However, I wouldn't be disappointed if he ended up being the choice. I certainly have questions about him, as I do others. Most of my responses were mean't to balance some of the posts on this thread, where it appeared to me that some people were just making up anything that popped into their heads as a way to discredit Porter. Or perhaps listening to the smoke and mirrors being floated around right now.

That said, prior to the season, I had Porter right up there at the top of my list, along with Doncic. And then when Bagley reclassified, it became a three man race for number one in my mind.. I don't have a problem with Porter's shot, and I certainly wouldn't compare it to Ball's, which is one of the strangest shots I've ever seen. He does bring the ball further back than I would like, but he has a very high release that I do like. He's also very creative at times, scoring off the dribble in a variety of ways.

It's a shame we didn't get to see him compete in college. I totally discount the two games he did play in, which unfortunately leaves us with his highschool games to judge him on. But he wouldn't be the first player to be in that situation. What makes his case unique, is the fact he had the back injury. If he were allowed to go directly from highschool to the NBA, like Lebron, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. And that's not a comparison to Lebron other than the situation.

Look, there were times in highschool when he appeared to be disengaged, or perhaps confused defensively. And yes, that bothered me. There were times when I thought he forced up shots when he should have moved the ball. There were times when I thought he had a chance to take a charge, and instead played matador defense with an Ole!. But I could say the same thing about a lot of highschoolers. I always take a players age into consideration and remind myself that were dealing with kids, not adults.

On the other hand, I felt that for his young age, he was a very skilled player and more advanced than most others in his age group. No, he can't dribble the ball like Trae Young, but his handles are fine for a 19 year old SF/PF. While there are times I think he should have passed the ball, he does make very nice passes on occasion, which means he capable. Now will his current skill set make him an all star at the next level? No, of course not. It needs to improve, but as a young player, you don't really know how much, or at what, until confronted by an NBA defender.

It's a very rare player that doesn't have to make adjustments upon entering the NBA. The NBA is a spread the floor, pick and roll league. You won't see much of that at the college level, and certainly not at the highschool level. Particularly at the highschool level where defense is an afterthought. Think about it, how do you learn to defend the pick and roll if no one runs the pick and roll. Or seldom runs it. So before I end up writing a book, let me cut to the chase. If I have the 2nd pick in the draft, I would take Doncic if he's till sitting there. I doubt he'll ever be a superstar, but I do think he can be an all star.

Now if the Suns decide to take Doncic, then for me, it becomes more complicated. I'm stuck choosing between Bagley and Jaren Jackson. Purely a gut thing here. Something about Ayton bothers me, and I could be wrong about him. But I'm very high on Jackson, and to me he's the true mystery man in this draft. At the same time, I feel confident that Bagley will be a very good NBA player, just not sure how good. Hey, I felt that Kidd Gilchrist only needed to develop a consistent jumpshot to be a very good player. Never happened! So you never know do you?

So my last thought is this. In a league that currently values shooting more than anything else, it's probably a good idea to hang your hat on someone that can already shoot the ball as opposed to a player that you hope will develop into a good shooter. Unless that player is so unique in other ways, it justifies taking that gamble. One of the reasons I loved Mikal Bridges was the dude was an outstanding shooter, along with his solid defense. So pick your poison. I was partially wrong about Drummond, so I could be wrong about Ayton as well. With luck, I've confused everyone!
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
What I really wanted to see out of Porter in college was how he adapted to playing against bigger, more athletic defenders.

It may have been the case that he just dominated in the NCAA the way he did in HS but my guess is that he would have had his share of struggles. Seeing how a guy adapts is a big part (for me anyway) of being able to project them to the next level.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Forgot to mention Perry Jones... Your right, for a while at the beginning of his freshman year I was very high on him, but to say he underachieved would be an understatement. I see very little comparison between Porter and Jones. I guess someone could compare their skillsets, but beyond that, it ends. Jones failed to grab hold of the reigns and become relevant for Baylor. In short, there were times you didn't know he was on the floor. And that's bad for a highly ranked player that getting 30 plus minutes a game.

Porter on the other hand, is a far more aggressive player. You always know he's on the floor. You might not agree with how he's playing, but at least he's trying to make himself relevant. The sad part with Jones is that he still had that mystic about him after his freshman year, but he decided to come back for his sophmore year and totally destroy it. As I've said many times, half of being a great player is lodged between the ears.
 
Oh in case anyone is wondering if Michael Porter Jr's handles will be of no problem since he played PG in high school...

In game 2 of the Finals they mentioned that Kevon Looney played PG in high school as well.

Not saying that MPJ won't be able to handle the ball at all. Just saying that playing PG in HS doesn't necessarily mean anything.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
Hmmm, not sure how to answer this exactly. If I've given anyone the idea that Porter is my first choice, then I apologize, because he's not. However, I wouldn't be disappointed if he ended up being the choice. I certainly have questions about him, as I do others. Most of my responses were mean't to balance some of the posts on this thread, where it appeared to me that some people were just making up anything that popped into their heads as a way to discredit Porter. Or perhaps listening to the smoke and mirrors being floated around right now.

That said, prior to the season, I had Porter right up there at the top of my list, along with Doncic. And then when Bagley reclassified, it became a three man race for number one in my mind.. I don't have a problem with Porter's shot, and I certainly wouldn't compare it to Ball's, which is one of the strangest shots I've ever seen. He does bring the ball further back than I would like, but he has a very high release that I do like. He's also very creative at times, scoring off the dribble in a variety of ways.

It's a shame we didn't get to see him compete in college. I totally discount the two games he did play in, which unfortunately leaves us with his highschool games to judge him on. But he wouldn't be the first player to be in that situation. What makes his case unique, is the fact he had the back injury. If he were allowed to go directly from highschool to the NBA, like Lebron, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. And that's not a comparison to Lebron other than the situation.

Look, there were times in highschool when he appeared to be disengaged, or perhaps confused defensively. And yes, that bothered me. There were times when I thought he forced up shots when he should have moved the ball. There were times when I thought he had a chance to take a charge, and instead played matador defense with an Ole!. But I could say the same thing about a lot of highschoolers. I always take a players age into consideration and remind myself that were dealing with kids, not adults.

On the other hand, I felt that for his young age, he was a very skilled player and more advanced than most others in his age group. No, he can't dribble the ball like Trae Young, but his handles are fine for a 19 year old SF/PF. While there are times I think he should have passed the ball, he does make very nice passes on occasion, which means he capable. Now will his current skill set make him an all star at the next level? No, of course not. It needs to improve, but as a young player, you don't really know how much, or at what, until confronted by an NBA defender.

It's a very rare player that doesn't have to make adjustments upon entering the NBA. The NBA is a spread the floor, pick and roll league. You won't see much of that at the college level, and certainly not at the highschool level. Particularly at the highschool level where defense is an afterthought. Think about it, how do you learn to defend the pick and roll if no one runs the pick and roll. Or seldom runs it. So before I end up writing a book, let me cut to the chase. If I have the 2nd pick in the draft, I would take Doncic if he's till sitting there. I doubt he'll ever be a superstar, but I do think he can be an all star.

Now if the Suns decide to take Doncic, then for me, it becomes more complicated. I'm stuck choosing between Bagley and Jaren Jackson. Purely a gut thing here. Something about Ayton bothers me, and I could be wrong about him. But I'm very high on Jackson, and to me he's the true mystery man in this draft. At the same time, I feel confident that Bagley will be a very good NBA player, just not sure how good. Hey, I felt that Kidd Gilchrist only needed to develop a consistent jumpshot to be a very good player. Never happened! So you never know do you?

So my last thought is this. In a league that currently values shooting more than anything else, it's probably a good idea to hang your hat on someone that can already shoot the ball as opposed to a player that you hope will develop into a good shooter. Unless that player is so unique in other ways, it justifies taking that gamble. One of the reasons I loved Mikal Bridges was the dude was an outstanding shooter, along with his solid defense. So pick your poison. I was partially wrong about Drummond, so I could be wrong about Ayton as well. With luck, I've confused everyone!
You and me both! Thanks for the detailed response. It's really unfortunate there isn't more to go off of with Porter. I hate to sell him short, I just can't judge him on what's not there. It winds up being more of a gut kindof thing, either you like what you do see, as limited as it is, or you don't. Same as everyone else I suppose but moreso with Porter. I agree with you that shooting has become a premium skill for every position and needs to be valued as such but it can actually be a tricky skill to project. I would be pretty happy with Mikal Bridges at #2 overall if it's not going to be Ayton or Doncic for that reason. He's another guy who's only real flaws are lack of elite athleticism and the perception that he has a limited ceiling. He's got a huge sample set though proving that he can take and make tough shots. Jackson is risky because the production wasn't always there but he does pop off the screen as a very smart defender.

Whatever it is that bothers you about Ayton might be the same thing I don't like about Porter. I just get a bad vibe about his attitude and his effort and his need to get up shots. I don't want to root against him though, I hope he figures it out. There's only 3 guys that I find consistently impressive on tape, easy to project, and relatively risk-free because they excelled at the highest level of competition they've been exposed to and that's Ayton, Doncic, and Miles Bridges. Jackson and Bamba are a little riskier but also projectible I think because of their physical tools and intelligence. Mikal Bridges is just a solid all-around college player without any flaws. That makes him a sleeper for me. He clearly has the work-ethic needed to excel in the NBA. That's my short-list. I also like Wendell Carter and Collin Sexton but not enough to pick them at #2 over that other group.
 
There just isn’t enough tape on Porter against legit competition and when I’ve seen him play he reminds me more of Harrison Barnes than Kevin Durant... He’s soft with his dribble pull up game, I don’t know if he has any real creation ability for others.
 
One of the most tapped in guys in the biz, Woj, has Porter Jr going 15th. But let's continue to entertain the thought of him at #2. :rolleyes: Oh wait I just remembered who our GM is. :rolleyes: Carry on.
 
One of the most tapped in guys in the biz, Woj, has Porter Jr going 15th. But let's continue to entertain the thought of him at #2. :rolleyes: Oh wait I just remembered who our GM is. :rolleyes: Carry on.
Even if the Kings don't take him at #2. I don't see MPJ dropping out of the top 7 or 8.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
Okay so the "defender" is literally jumping out of his way here. It might as well be a layup drill. If this is supposed to prove anything at all I couldn't tell you what it is. Even the "look at Willie Cauley-Stein shoot wide open threes in the gym" video was more compelling than this! :)
 
Okay so the "defender" is literally jumping out of his way here. It might as well be a layup drill. If this is supposed to prove anything at all I couldn't tell you what it is. Even the "look at Willie Cauley-Stein shoot wide open threes in the gym" video was more compelling than this! :)
I wouldn't say it proves anything. I've posted highlights and lowlights. I think any footage we can see at this point is better than no footage. I would say that he is a bit more athletic than I thought. This is pre-surgery tape, so I'm interested to see the pro-day on Friday. My biggest concern with MPJ is his ball handling, he lacks wiggle. Without the ball handling he's a stretch 4, which I have zero interest in with our pick.
 
I wouldn't say it proves anything. I've posted highlights and lowlights. I think any footage we can see at this point is better than no footage. I would say that he is a bit more athletic than I thought. This is pre-surgery tape, so I'm interested to see the pro-day on Friday. My biggest concern with MPJ is his ball handling, he lacks wiggle. Without the ball handling he's a stretch 4, which I have zero interest in with our pick.
Why would you have zero interest in s stretch 4? It’s a major hole on our team and would spread the floor for Fox.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Okay so the "defender" is literally jumping out of his way here. It might as well be a layup drill. If this is supposed to prove anything at all I couldn't tell you what it is. Even the "look at Willie Cauley-Stein shoot wide open threes in the gym" video was more compelling than this! :)
Well, I think it's partly to show that he looks healthy. It may not be what your looking for, but I think it's the biggest question mark that most people have. I have never doubted his talent. You may, and maybe that's why it's meaningless to you. From my perspective, just to see him running and dunking effortlessly is what's important. I know he can dribble and shoot.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Because a stretch 4 is not a value pick at #2.
So if the stretch four is the next Paul George, he would have no value? A stretch four is still a Power forward, or a combination of SF and PF in some cases. The term itself is meaningless unless attached to a player, who could be a star, or a role player off the bench. So to say the term stretch four refer's to a lesser value player simply isn't true in every case. Depends on who!
 
So if the stretch four is the next Paul George, he would have no value? A stretch four is still a Power forward, or a combination of SF and PF in some cases. The term itself is meaningless unless attached to a player, who could be a star, or a role player off the bench. So to say the term stretch four refer's to a lesser value player simply isn't true in every case. Depends on who!
I guess it depends on your definition of a stretch four. I feel like most people define stretch four either as a big SF that can't handle the ball or a smaller PF that doesn't have much of a post game. When I think of stretch fours, I think of Marvin Williams right away. Tolliver, Bjelica, JaMychal etc are other guys I think of as being typical stretch fours. ZBo can certainly knock down the 3 point shot but I don't think of him as a stretch four because he has his post game. He's just a four that is capable of stretching if needed.

The original comment that was being quoted was about MPJ not having enough wiggle and ball handling to be a SF. Essentially making him a stretch four instead of a dynamic offensive player. Him being a dynamic Paul George type player is obviously well worth the #2 pick but him being a spot shooter that can grab a handful of rebounds doesn't make him worthy of the #2 pick.

I think most of us want roughly the same thing out of the #2 pick. A player that is capable of instant offense by creating their own shot or at least creating for others. If they aren't capable of that, then we want them to be elite at something else. Motor/effort/rebounding for Bagley, defense for JJJ and Bamba etc. MPJ doesn't project to be elite at defense or rebounding or ball distribution so it would be a tough pill to swallow if he just turned out to be a good shooter that is incapable of creating his own shot. Which is essentially a classic stretch four type player IMO.
 
I'm actually kinda bothered/surprised that he isn't visiting teams in their gyms or inviting them to work him out the way they want to. Teams may not get enough information with this "pro-day" to be comfortable with his recovery and not doing pre-draft visits may concern teams that there are things he's hiding. I don't what his plans are after his workout, but his approach to this process doesn't seem very conducive to raising his value.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
I'm actually kinda bothered/surprised that he isn't visiting teams in their gyms or inviting them to work him out the way they want to. Teams may not get enough information with this "pro-day" to be comfortable with his recovery and not doing pre-draft visits may concern teams that there are things he's hiding. I don't what his plans are after his workout, but his approach to this process doesn't seem very conducive to raising his value.
https://www.columbiamissourian.com/...cle_70047660-381a-11e8-9cc6-db2a912dae9c.html
 
An interesting blurb on MPJ from a St. Louis Post Dispatch focused on his brother Jontay:

"Porter Sr. said his oldest son has not yet released his medical information to NBA teams but underwent a physical by the Chicago Bulls medical team last Thursday. He’ll host a pro day this Friday in Chicago that’s open to any team that’s interested in watching him work out. The following week the teams drafting in the top 10 will have another day to see him up close and inspect his surgically repaired back. The Porters will share the Bulls’ medical report with every other NBA team, Porter Sr. said."

I've maintained that the health concerns are way overblown, but if that's truly the case why all the secrecy?

Some more MPJ tidbits as well in the article: http://www.stltoday.com/sports/coll...l&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=user-share

MizzouKing
 
An interesting blurb on MPJ from a St. Louis Post Dispatch focused on his brother Jontay:

"Porter Sr. said his oldest son has not yet released his medical information to NBA teams but underwent a physical by the Chicago Bulls medical team last Thursday. He’ll host a pro day this Friday in Chicago that’s open to any team that’s interested in watching him work out. The following week the teams drafting in the top 10 will have another day to see him up close and inspect his surgically repaired back. The Porters will share the Bulls’ medical report with every other NBA team, Porter Sr. said."

I've maintained that the health concerns are way overblown, but if that's truly the case why all the secrecy?

Some more MPJ tidbits as well in the article: http://www.stltoday.com/sports/coll...l&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=user-share

MizzouKing
I just read this as well. It may take him off of the Kings board. I think this will move him well below Ayton, Doncic, JJJ, Bagley, and Bamba. Maybe he's just trying to force his way to Chicago and he really likes the fit there.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
Did i read the wrong article? It was from april 6th and didnt touch on the pre draft process at all
That's the point and kind of why I shared the article (after doing some searching to find his agent). Since the day his agent was signed, there hasn't been a whole lot of information coming from his agent. You know, the guy who is supposed to be promoting his client to the best of his ability? This whole idea of acting like he's some reclusive super-star and waiting to reveal his medical information is, IMHO, a big gamble to take on a player who is far from a sure thing.

How much of a concern is the microdiskectomy surgery Porter underwent in November?
The injury is really not a concern at all going forward. In fact, now that he is physically 110 percent, the doctors have told us he'll be even more athletic and explosive than he was before the injury. It will just take some time to regain all of his strength and explosiveness, but we have already seen first hand that his work ethic is off the charts. And so there's no question he will come back better than ever.
Something about that statement just bothers me. Of course, I trust agents in general about as much as I trust used car salesmen and politicians (not necessarily in that order).
 
My concern is who will the Kings bring in to work out. Between Ayton and Porter more guys not coming then coming.
I know they've worked out some players who can contribute but are way under the radar. One was Jordan Barnett, a supporting player who has an entry level NBA body and OMS (only moderately streaky) sharpshooting skills.