Michael Porter Jr

Aside from shooting, what aspect of his game do you actually see as developed. I really don't care where he was projected or what his free throw percentage was I have eyes and I trust those a lot more.
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/michael-porter

Just read his scouting report. His draw is obviously the size/shooter/athlete package but he's also a very good rebounder (15 per 40 in his brief college playing time, higher than even Bagley). Has upside as a perimeter defender too.

You're getting a three level scorer who can elevate and shoot over the defense at will. Great catch and shoot guy who can also finish at the rim... Perfect for a team with fox at the point. All that plus rebounding and the potential of good perimeter defense too. He's not a playmaker like Luka... That's ok, we have Bogdan and fox for that. He's a better shooter than Luka, a better athlete than Luka, he's taller and longer than Luka, a better rebounder, and more defensive upside. Is he as healthy as Luka is the major question?
 
I don’t see a risk free pick....

Luka - it’s not clear he can defend a position
Bagley - it’s not clear he can shoot from beyond 3 ft:
Bamba - can he find an offensive game

I’m not saying I would take him but I don’t see another sure fire player that I would write him off either. And I certainly wouldn’t form an opinion based on a couple games back after a long lay off.
What does that even mean? He's a SF. Plain and simple.
 

Capt. Factorial

ceterum censeo delendum esse Argentum
Staff member
Any Kings fan and student of the draft not adamant about bypassing this guy at #2 loses all credibility.
But anybody who turns a willfully blind eye to the fact that Porter was coming off of injury, not 100% and not remotely in basketball shape and uses two throwaway games to determine that the #1 high school player just 12 months ago is worthless...DOESN'T lose all credibility?
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
We're going to have to wait and see. It's just eye of the beholder stuff right now. High school rankings are subjective, so are draft projections. I've heard a whole lot of claims made this time of year that turn out to be false. I just hope people remember all the definitive statements they made one way or another 5 years from now when we actually know who these players are in the NBA. I've fallen in love with prospects who never amount to much before but I also can't recall a prospect that I soured on who made me eat my words.

Here's what cracks me up: some people continue to believe that there is some kind of definitive proof that a guy is worthy of a top 5 pick. There is never going to be any proof. You watch the tape and make up your own mind. The professional full-time scouts are wrong just as often as we are. You can't just look at production and assume it will translate. If you don't believe me, here's the last 10 Naismith Prep Players of the Year:

(2009) Derrick Favors (2010) Jared Sullinger (2011) Austin Rivers (2012) Shabazz Muhammad (2013) Andrew Wiggins (2014) Cliff Alexander (2015) Ben Simmons (2016) Lonzo Ball (2017) Michael Porter (2018) RJ Barrett

And here's the last 10 Naismith College Players of the Year:

(2009) Blake Griffin (2010) Evan Turner (2011) Jimmer Fredette (2012) Anthony Davis (2013) Trey Burke (2014) Doug McDermott (2015) Frank Kaminsky (2016) Buddy Hield (2017) Frank Mason (2018) Jalen Brunson

Phenomenal athletes, born scorers, winners. Not exactly a murderers row of NBA stars though in the end and yet all of them were selected at one point or another as the best among their peers. Trying to project NBA talent is a whole lot more complicated than throwing some stats around. Every single one of these guys had a phenomenal season at one point or another. If you think you see a pattern let me know. I see a whole lot of "sure things" who somehow failed to achieve the stardom they were guaranteed (with a few exceptions). On the flip side we've got Steph Curry (too small, slender frame), Nikola Jokic (too slow, can't hang with NBA athletes), Kawhi Leonard (role-player potential but can he shoot?), Draymond Green (tweener, unathletic, can be guard wings at the next level?) and on and on. So I'm not looking for who dominated their competition be it in high school, college, or some other league. All that proves is that they are capable of dominating at that level. I'm looking for some kind of spark that tells me "this kid is going to keep getting better and he has the necessary physical gifts and mental fortitude to excel in the NBA" and anyone who tells you they've got that down to an exact science is lying.
 
Man these threadss are rough to read thru. Ppl here are perpetuating false narratives and throwing around absolutes like Can't.

It's long been said MPjr has the 2nd best ballskills of any forward from the 2017 HS class, other than Jarred Vanderbilt.
 
Here are a couple of nice Michael Porter Jr Highlights from the McDonalds All Star:


The USA vs the World Nike game:


Michael Porter Jr. Vs Marvin Bagley game:


The announcers are just gushing over him. I'm hoping if the Kings take him #2, his back is 110%.

MPJ definitely has a lot of talent. He could become an Alpha scorer in the NBA.
Interesting tape on them both. I don’t know how you say Porter isn’t skilled. You can clearly say he plays crappy defense and has horrible rebounding position. But he made a number of nice passes over the top and showed NBA range.

Bagley showed his insanely quick first step and tenacious rebounding. But he got blocked twice near the end because he constantly went to his left hand. A year at Duke and he does the same thing. I think if you are going to call out a player for no skill it has to be Bagley. Every play is within 3 ft of the basket using his left hand.
 
What does that even mean? He's a SF. Plain and simple.
Again if I saw him guard the two guards in the Euro semi final or final I would agree he could guard an NBA small forward. I didn’t. Mostly he was guarding post players and in the NBA he isn’t long enough to guard post players.

Bagley and Porter don’t play defense either but I can see the quickness and length to do so. I don’t see the same quickness with Luka. I see a guy using a good step back to get seperation from Euro defenders because he can’t get by them.
 
Interesting tape on them both. I don’t know how you say Porter isn’t skilled. You can clearly say he plays crappy defense and has horrible rebounding position. But he made a number of nice passes over the top and showed NBA range.

Bagley showed his insanely quick first step and tenacious rebounding. But he got blocked twice near the end because he constantly went to his left hand. A year at Duke and he does the same thing. I think if you are going to call out a player for no skill it has to be Bagley. Every play is within 3 ft of the basket using his left hand.
What? I never said Porter wasn't skilled.
 
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Several others have insinuated that he has limited skills.
That wasn't me.

My main concern with MPJ has always been his back injury and that there is no tape of him versus college players, except for those 2 games when he was clearly not 100%.

I actually think MPJ has that Alpha Scorer in him. His main skill is that he is a relentless scorer and rebounder. If he never got injured, I'm sure he would had been in the discussion for #1 overall.

I have no doubt MPJ will be a good scoring forward, much like Jayson Tatum. I think Doncic might not put up the scoring numbers that MPJ eventually will, but he will help make his teammates be better overall, because he will create more open looks for them.

It really comes down to what Vlade is looking for.

If he wants an Alpha Scorer, then MPJ or Bagley would be the pick. If he wants defense, then Bamba and JJJ would get the pick. If he wants court vision and playmaking, then Doncic would be the pick.

Doncic would be my pick, but I'm starting to warm up to the idea that MPJ will be the pick at #2.

If MPJ's back checks out 110% then I am okay with MPJ at #2, as long as Vlade and Co see him live and in person for a private workout and he blows them away.
 
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Just based off the highlights I see Porter as being a good shooter, although I personally don't like how high he gets off the ground for the shot. I don't love his drive game as he throws up a fair amount of slop although it seems to get him to the line regularly and he is a good ft shooter. Made a few nice passes, no defense to speak of. I could see him eventually being a high level scorer but I believe his upside is too risky for a must hit pick.
 
Ill chim in in case fan sentiment means anything. im happy with MPJ or Doncic on draft night. If MPJ our pick, id hope we could pick up some assets to move down for him. Ayton or Bagely i do not want.
 
But anybody who turns a willfully blind eye to the fact that Porter was coming off of injury, not 100% and not remotely in basketball shape and uses two throwaway games to determine that the #1 high school player just 12 months ago is worthless...DOESN'T lose all credibility?
I didn't turn a willful blind eye to anything . I addressed the points you raised in the post. You must have missed it. My assessment of this bum stands.
 
I didn't turn a willful blind eye to anything . I addressed the points you raised in the post. You must have missed it. My assessment of this bum stands.
Really not necessary to degrade a player like this. You could have just said I really don't like him and don't think he will pan out in the NBA and that would have said it all. I have significant concerns about him too but I'm not going to name call the guy because of it. No need to get riled up we are going to pick Luka anyway, which is something you'll enjoy I'm sure ;)
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
He also can't dribble the ball, doesn't have a great feel for game, doesn't play hard, questionable intangibles, is neither a 3 or 4, had serious back surgery at 19 years old. It's literally insane that people can be higher on him than Doncic because of high school tape where he is playing against children and Doncic has delivered in the second best competition in the world playing against grown men that are professionals. Im not a blind Doncic supporter and think Doncic, Bagley, Jackson Jr, and even Bamba are all viable at #2. I just find it sickening that the only player it's been reported the Kings are high in is Porter Jr. It would be a disaster.
I'm curious, just what are you basing your opinions on. I assume you've been to some of his games, or at least saw him play in some all star games? Yes/no? I've watched a ton of film on Porter, and not once did I say to myself that he's a poor ballhandler, or that he didn't play hard, and has no feel for the game. Me thinks your just making this crap up. Yeah, it looked like Porter was playing against boys in highschool, but you know what, some of those same boys were Bagley, JJJ, Trae etc. and he freaking dominated!!!!!!!!! Just what the hell did you want him to do?

You know who else dominated in highschool? Lebron and Durant. Should I have not noticed that they were great highschool players because they wern't over in Europe dominating? Look, you don't like Porter at 2 for some reason, fine! But don't just throw a bunch of nonsense out there trying to disparage him to make you case. Do you honestly believe that he was rated the best highschool prospect in the country because he had little to no talent. Because that's what your describing.

And, what part of the Kings are high on Porter, is an old report from when we were picking at 7, do you not understand? Or do you just like screaming from the top of the mountain. I doubt anyone right now, including me, you and most of the pundits have any idea who the Kings are leaning toward. Most of the smoke out there right now is just that, smoke.
 
I'm curious, just what are you basing your opinions on. I assume you've been to some of his games, or at least saw him play in some all star games? Yes/no? I've watched a ton of film on Porter, and not once did I say to myself that he's a poor ballhandler, or that he didn't play hard, and has no feel for the game. Me thinks your just making this crap up. Yeah, it looked like Porter was playing against boys in highschool, but you know what, some of those same boys were Bagley, JJJ, Trae etc. and he freaking dominated!!!!!!!!! Just what the hell did you want him to do?

You know who else dominated in highschool? Lebron and Durant. Should I have not noticed that they were great highschool players because they wern't over in Europe dominating? Look, you don't like Porter at 2 for some reason, fine! But don't just throw a bunch of nonsense out there trying to disparage him to make you case. Do you honestly believe that he was rated the best highschool prospect in the country because he had little to no talent. Because that's what your describing.

And, what part of the Kings are high on Porter, is an old report from when we were picking at 7, do you not understand? Or do you just like screaming from the top of the mountain. I doubt anyone right now, including me, you and most of the pundits have any idea who the Kings are leaning toward. Most of the smoke out there right now is just that, smoke.
The hate on Porter has been absolutely unreal and unwarranted. The kid has talent as I've said all along and he can ball, period. Now the medical issues and lack of college gameplay are all legitimate concerns, but some folks are definitely taking things too far. Doesn't play with passion or has no feel for the game? How does one even know that? He barely has any legit tape out there other than highlights.

This needed to be said. I applaud you good sir.
 

Capt. Factorial

ceterum censeo delendum esse Argentum
Staff member
I didn't turn a willful blind eye to anything . I addressed the points you raised in the post. You must have missed it. My assessment of this bum stands.
You mentioned those points. And then you went ahead and did a detailed breakdown of the games where he was not 100% anyway, in an attempt to show that he was a bum. That qualifies as a willful blind eye to me. You knew the major caveat and then made like it didn't matter.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
Way less risk with Doncic than MPJ and not enough ceiling difference practically speaking. He has glaring holes in his game alluded to above, he is super raw, it would truly be a terrible decision at #2.
If you honestly think Porter is super raw, then I'm not sure I can have a conversation with you. It's unbelievable to me! I'll give you this. Doncic probably has the highest floor of the top players, but Porter might have the highest ceiling. Is there a bit of risk with Porter? Yes, but you know everyone on this forum is always talking about taking a risk when there's a chance to possibly grab a superstar. Well this may be that chance. No, there's no guarantee, and if there was, well then the Suns would grab him before us.

Porter is a very very talented player. About that I have no doubt. To think he's raw is ridiculous. You want a player that's raw, well then draft Bamba. He has no handles to speak of and he has no post game to speak of other than putbacks. He also has little feel for the game offensively away from the basket, other than shooting an open three. But, like Porter, he also has a very high ceiling. With any of these players your betting on development, which means your betting on whomever you choose being a hard worker

I think Porter and Bamba both want to be great players, so I'm willing to bet some money on them. I have a bit of doubt about Ayton in that area, but could be wrong. I can't get into a players head, and I don't have the ability to talk to his family or his past coaches. So I rely on rumors about a players work ethic. If a player has the reputation of being a gym rat, then he's usually a hard worker. If he's already talented, and he is indeed a hard worker, then your going to end up with a very good player.

I'm not saying that we should draft Porter or any other player. I've said that I think you almost can't go wrong with any of them. The hard part is figuring out which one will be the best in two or three years. If Porter is healthy, then it could be him, and to just discard him, or worse yet, feel the need to disparage him with unfounded criticism makes no sense to me.
 
Here's why I like Porter for the Kings at #2. I like his upside best of the guys that will be available there. While everyone else has a major flaw either in their game or their measurements or their athleticism, mpj seems to check all the boxes. On top of that he is a near perfect fit for this current Kings team. A 3/4 who can shoot off the catch and run in transition. We have 4/5's and 2/3's but no 3/4. I wouldn't draft him because of fit but it's definitley a nice bonus.
 

funkykingston

Super Moderator
Staff member
If you honestly think Porter is super raw, then I'm not sure I can have a conversation with you. It's unbelievable to me! I'll give you this. Doncic probably has the highest floor of the top players, but Porter might have the highest ceiling. Is there a bit of risk with Porter? Yes, but you know everyone on this forum is always talking about taking a risk when there's a chance to possibly grab a superstar. Well this may be that chance. No, there's no guarantee, and if there was, well then the Suns would grab him before us.

Porter is a very very talented player. About that I have no doubt. To think he's raw is ridiculous. You want a player that's raw, well then draft Bamba. He has no handles to speak of and he has no post game to speak of other than putbacks. He also has little feel for the game offensively away from the basket, other than shooting an open three. But, like Porter, he also has a very high ceiling. With any of these players your betting on development, which means your betting on whomever you choose being a hard worker

I think Porter and Bamba both want to be great players, so I'm willing to bet some money on them. I have a bit of doubt about Ayton in that area, but could be wrong. I can't get into a players head, and I don't have the ability to talk to his family or his past coaches. So I rely on rumors about a players work ethic. If a player has the reputation of being a gym rat, then he's usually a hard worker. If he's already talented, and he is indeed a hard worker, then your going to end up with a very good player.

I'm not saying that we should draft Porter or any other player. I've said that I think you almost can't go wrong with any of them. The hard part is figuring out which one will be the best in two or three years. If Porter is healthy, then it could be him, and to just discard him, or worse yet, feel the need to disparage him with unfounded criticism makes no sense to me.
When Bagley reclassified I made him my #1 prospect over Porter. At that time Ayton's motor ran too hot and cold for my liking and I hadn't watched Doncic at all.

Anyway, my feeling back then was that Porter was the slightly better player while Bagley was the slightly better prospect and I was looking forward to watching both of them play in college.

Porter is risky because of his back and it's very hard to evaluate him when he didn't face a higher level of competition but MPJ is not raw. He's very skilled. Very few kids come out of high school with an offensive game as polished as his. Jayson Tatum and Jabari Parker come to mind. Not in terms of having a similar game (those two were both more mid-range/post focused than MPJ) but in terms of skill level on offense at that age.
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
When Bagley reclassified I made him my #1 prospect over Porter. At that time Ayton's motor ran too hot and cold for my liking and I hadn't watched Doncic at all.

Anyway, my feeling back then was that Porter was the slightly better player while Bagley was the slightly better prospect and I was looking forward to watching both of them play in college.

Porter is risky because of his back and it's very hard to evaluate him when he didn't face a higher level of competition but MPJ is not raw. He's very skilled. Very few kids come out of high school with an offensive game as polished as his. Jayson Tatum and Jabari Parker come to mind. Not in terms of having a similar game (those two were both more mid-range/post focused than MPJ) but in terms of skill level on offense at that age.
I believe you left out Jahlil Okafor and Jared Sullinger. :)
 

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!
Staff member
If you honestly think Porter is super raw, then I'm not sure I can have a conversation with you. It's unbelievable to me! I'll give you this. Doncic probably has the highest floor of the top players, but Porter might have the highest ceiling. Is there a bit of risk with Porter? Yes, but you know everyone on this forum is always talking about taking a risk when there's a chance to possibly grab a superstar. Well this may be that chance. No, there's no guarantee, and if there was, well then the Suns would grab him before us.

Porter is a very very talented player. About that I have no doubt. To think he's raw is ridiculous. You want a player that's raw, well then draft Bamba. He has no handles to speak of and he has no post game to speak of other than putbacks. He also has little feel for the game offensively away from the basket, other than shooting an open three. But, like Porter, he also has a very high ceiling. With any of these players your betting on development, which means your betting on whomever you choose being a hard worker

I think Porter and Bamba both want to be great players, so I'm willing to bet some money on them. I have a bit of doubt about Ayton in that area, but could be wrong. I can't get into a players head, and I don't have the ability to talk to his family or his past coaches. So I rely on rumors about a players work ethic. If a player has the reputation of being a gym rat, then he's usually a hard worker. If he's already talented, and he is indeed a hard worker, then your going to end up with a very good player.

I'm not saying that we should draft Porter or any other player. I've said that I think you almost can't go wrong with any of them. The hard part is figuring out which one will be the best in two or three years. If Porter is healthy, then it could be him, and to just discard him, or worse yet, feel the need to disparage him with unfounded criticism makes no sense to me.
You're one of the people here who's highest on Porter so I'm curious if you can answer this for me....

I watched the McDonald's All American game and while Porter did win the MVP award, he made only 6 shots in that game, missed all 4 of his threes, and of those 6 shots 1 of them was a cherry picking dunk, 1 was an alley-oop, four were right under the basket, and 1 was a nice dribble drive and layup. Most of his drives got cut off and he was basically 0 for 7 on anything more than 5 feet from the hoop. For a guy billed as a smooth wing athlete, he sure looked a lot like a tweener PF in that game. Collin Sexton was the standout star of the night for me and my opinion of Porter actually went down after that performance.

Then I watched the Nike Hoop Summit. He did make a pull-up three in that game but other than that it was the same story. Free throws and open-court dunks. I have no doubts about his ability to finish plays above the rim or take advantage of mistakes under the basket because of his size and hops but so far in these two marquee games he's 1 for 8 on threes with a funky shooting motion that doesn't strike me as conducive to high percentage repeatability in the NBA and he's living at the line on some questionable contact calls rather than making tough shots. He's getting to the basket but when he does get there he's getting stuffed like crazy.

Now that's two games and there's some All-Star game matador defense played on both sides there, but it's at least against elite competition. High school games don't really tell me much because some of the competition is truly awful. I still remember watching Perry Jones play in High School and thinking "wow, this kid is going to be the next Tracy McGrady!" and then after a disappointing two years at Baylor it turns out he's not even an NBA player. Anybody 6'9" or taller who can jump like that and handle the ball in the open floor is going to be a monster against High School competition. Things get considerably more difficult when height alone is no longer the ultimate trump card and Porter has a similarly skinny frame.

So I said there'd be a question in here didn't I? This is what I'm wondering -- because you said you've watched Porter play a ton and I take your word for it -- do you think these high-ceiling projections for him are really reflective of his overall skill level or is it possible the dazzling athleticism, ability to finish above the rim in the open floor, and pull-up in the midrange (because even a high school three is an NBA midrange jumper) where his high release makes him basically unblockable in High School is inflating his value just a bit? Huge scoring numbers are nice but it's High School, the real question is does he look like an NBA star? I don't watch a lot of high school ball outside of the big All Star games so the few times I've been able to watch him play I see a guy who doesn't hustle on defense, struggles to put the ball in the basket any time he takes contact, and utilizes a rhythm hesitation dribble to get off a three point shot that rarely goes in. That's not encouraging at all!

Speaking of which... one of the biggest selling points for Porter has been his knockdown three point jumper so I'm most surprised to find that one of my biggest question marks right now is how he's going to find success shooting the ball the way he does. When I watched Lonzo Ball at UCLA I thought to myself "this is a guy who can't shoot" and yet there it was on the page: 55% from the field, 41% from three. How could my eyes be so wrong compared to the cold hard data? And then he gets to the NBA and he's an abysmal shooter in his rookie season. Suddenly it becomes very apparent that his non-existent mid range game is a liability because he can't live on dunks and layups like he did in college and those slingshot threes are streaky as hell. I don't think the situation is as dire for Porter by any means but it's a similar case of the eye-test not matching the stats for me.

I believe you were with me there for a little while in believing in Perry Jones. Is there any sense for you that Porter could end up turning out the same way? There's no "gotcha" in this for me, I'm just trying to understand if I'm missing something here or if maybe there's just a lot of follow-the-leader and confirmation bias going on with this guy. Obviously we need a SF and Porter has been billed as a huge wing with insane shooting talent and bounce and top of the charts athleticism who can create his own shots all over the floor. If that's the case how come he didn't show it in these All Star games? Why does he seem to have trouble getting by defenders in the half court?

Kevin Durant has been a popular comparison but if Porter had come into college and averaged 26 and 11 with 2 blocks and 2 steals per game like Durant did we wouldn't even be having this conversation. I don't want to draft a guy because he resembles Durant a little -- because we need a SF and the most optimistic of projections have Porter scrapping the surface of KD's MVP level talent. I want to feel confident that I'm drafting a player who will be a star in the NBA. With his massive production in college KD left little doubt about where his future lied. Unfortunately for Michael Porter he didn't get that chance. Well actually, he could have given himself that chance if he stayed at Missouri another year. I'm not going to hold that against him but I'm also not going to automatically give him credit for something he hasn't done. I have some doubts about his ability to excel even in college. Maybe that back injury was already an issue and that's why he didn't look good in the All Star games. Certainly that was the case for Harry Giles' short-lived college career.

This is a lot of rambling nonsense, I'm just trying to give you some sense of where my doubts come from. The risk with this guy is massive. If you pick him at #2 and he's Kevin Durant, we're in business! If you pick him at #2 and he's closer to Perry Jones than we're absolutely sunk. We've just blown the best chance this franchise has had in 30 years to propel itself forward with one draft pick. I can't justify that level of risk to myself. If there's some magical footage out there that involves more than dunking and shooting pull up jumpers on average high school players I'd love to see it! Especially if our front office is serious about potentially picking this kid.