We're #2! (merged)
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It's not a valid point at all. Be specific, what are these wild passes we've seen out of Euro leagues that haven't translated to the NBA? It doesn't even make sense. It's far more difficult to rack up assists (and all other stats) in Euroleague than it is in the NBA. I remember people telling me Rubio's passing wasn't that good because he only averaged 4apg in Europe. People don't get it. It's such a lazy criticism that requires no actual analysis. Of course the competition is at a higher level in the NBA. Might as well trot that out for every college player, especially considering Euroleague is clearly a step up from NCAA. Nor is Doncic in any form a "showboat", if you're implying he might be. This was the most productive player in the best league outside of the NBA, at age 18/19, putting up numbers that are unheard of and leading his team to the Euroleague Final Four. He was also a big part of the victorious Slovenian team.
Throwing out these shallow, meaningless buzz phrases is easy. Back it up. Lack of elite athleticism is the only rational argument against Luka right now. And he's a better athlete than given credit for. Nobody's a sure thing, not claiming he is. But at least make the criticism legitimate.
Throwing out these shallow, meaningless buzz phrases is easy. Back it up. Lack of elite athleticism is the only rational argument against Luka right now. And he's a better athlete than given credit for. Nobody's a sure thing, not claiming he is. But at least make the criticism legitimate.
I don't think anything is a lock and I'm kind of glad we aren't in their shoes. I think they have a lot of question marks on their roster and so not only do they have to get the pick right, they have to get corresponding moves around the pick right.
I think there's a lot less pressure on us with our young guys, but obviously if we get Ayton I think we need to move one of our young bigs for a 3 if we have faith in Giles and just go for broke. If it's Doncic then I think we just see what we have and save our money for 2019, plus we have a ton of expirings for the trade deadline.
I think there's a lot less pressure on us with our young guys, but obviously if we get Ayton I think we need to move one of our young bigs for a 3 if we have faith in Giles and just go for broke. If it's Doncic then I think we just see what we have and save our money for 2019, plus we have a ton of expirings for the trade deadline.
I think as the draft gets closer the Suns will hone in on Ayton as long as everything checks out. I also think the Kings will end up deciding between Bagley and Doncic.
Bagley seems to be underrated a bit right now in this stage of the process. Anybody with physical gifts like his that has that kind of motor/intensity is a good bet to reach whatever potential he might have. Analytics say JJJ is a better pick but the eye test after watching more games & highlights of each has me coming back to Bagley.
Bagley seems to be underrated a bit right now in this stage of the process. Anybody with physical gifts like his that has that kind of motor/intensity is a good bet to reach whatever potential he might have. Analytics say JJJ is a better pick but the eye test after watching more games & highlights of each has me coming back to Bagley.
I woke up 15 hours ago, was ready to leave for the work and almost at the end was late, because as I was just checking news and I saw a picture with Fox, Jackson and some women and without reading the title I thought what the heck is happening so as I was for the first time reading the title I was surprised because I did not knew it was a draft lottery night and really I could not believe we jumped up and got the 2nd pick.
Never underestimate the Lucky 7.
And for me the decision now is easy, If PHX takes Doncic, I would take Ayton if PHX takes Ayton, I draft and run away with Doncic, Vlade doesn't need to be smart and for godsake don't even think trading this pick away.
I hope draft night will be fun, Summer league will be fun and at the end for me the best thing is we don't have to think about losing games next season and looking where we are gonna pick.
I said this last year after draft the Kings still have 2 years to make the playoffs, if they do then I'm going for the first time to Sac town, heading to G1C and will be wearing the most ridiculous outfit I can find and root for the Kings in the play-offs.
Fellow fans it's gonna happen soon.
Never underestimate the Lucky 7.
And for me the decision now is easy, If PHX takes Doncic, I would take Ayton if PHX takes Ayton, I draft and run away with Doncic, Vlade doesn't need to be smart and for godsake don't even think trading this pick away.
I hope draft night will be fun, Summer league will be fun and at the end for me the best thing is we don't have to think about losing games next season and looking where we are gonna pick.
I said this last year after draft the Kings still have 2 years to make the playoffs, if they do then I'm going for the first time to Sac town, heading to G1C and will be wearing the most ridiculous outfit I can find and root for the Kings in the play-offs.
Fellow fans it's gonna happen soon.
I love Bagley. In a weaker draft, he's the clear cut #1 pick. However, Ayton absolutely dominated college. 20pts 11rebs 1.9blks on 61.2/34.3/73.3. He's the most dominant big man we've seen in the last decade. Meanwhile, Doncic is doing things absolutely unheard of in Euroleague. Arguably the best prospect to ever come out of Europe.
So yeah, it's easy to see why Bagley gets pushed to the back burner. I love Bagley and I have him as my #3. His game reminds me a lot of a younger AD, but he's nowhere near the same defensive prospect. I do think there's risk in Bagley just because he's so raw. I'm confident he'll be able to extend his range to the 3pt line by year 4, but it's still all a gamble. He's not a sure thing, and when you're picking up as high as #2, I don't think you have room to gamble as if you were picking at #5.
So yeah, it's easy to see why Bagley gets pushed to the back burner. I love Bagley and I have him as my #3. His game reminds me a lot of a younger AD, but he's nowhere near the same defensive prospect. I do think there's risk in Bagley just because he's so raw. I'm confident he'll be able to extend his range to the 3pt line by year 4, but it's still all a gamble. He's not a sure thing, and when you're picking up as high as #2, I don't think you have room to gamble as if you were picking at #5.
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I agree with your analysis and I also don't see a problem with Doncic as a defender.
His defensive awareness is very good with head on a swivel off the ball. No problems there.
I was surprised to see he made only on 31% on 3s.
I love his shot mechanics and think he can be a 45% three pointer shooter in the NBA but this Euro number was low.
He may need to speed up his shot release or just get in more reps and larger sample size, I am not sure.
But I think the Kings are taking Bagley #2. I think the Suns are taking Ayton at #1.
I reserve the right to change my mind and might, but I think this is the best course of action for both teams.
I anticipate the Suns and Kings will pass on Doncic not because they don't like/love him as a player but because they like these guys that much more.
I read these critics Bagley can't shoot....give me a break.
Guy has a beautiful stroke and the makings of a devastating face-up game.
I wish he used his right hand more but he can develop it.
He has a sweet half hook and he's super quick off first and second bounce a la Anthony Davis.
One of the best questions you can ask when scouting these guys is "how easy does he make the game look"?
Bagley makes the game look easy.
His defensive awareness is very good with head on a swivel off the ball. No problems there.
I was surprised to see he made only on 31% on 3s.
I love his shot mechanics and think he can be a 45% three pointer shooter in the NBA but this Euro number was low.
He may need to speed up his shot release or just get in more reps and larger sample size, I am not sure.
But I think the Kings are taking Bagley #2. I think the Suns are taking Ayton at #1.
I reserve the right to change my mind and might, but I think this is the best course of action for both teams.
I anticipate the Suns and Kings will pass on Doncic not because they don't like/love him as a player but because they like these guys that much more.
I read these critics Bagley can't shoot....give me a break.
Guy has a beautiful stroke and the makings of a devastating face-up game.
I wish he used his right hand more but he can develop it.
He has a sweet half hook and he's super quick off first and second bounce a la Anthony Davis.
One of the best questions you can ask when scouting these guys is "how easy does he make the game look"?
Bagley makes the game look easy.
Re: Bagley, I'm curious what his measurements look like from the combine. The wingspan measurements we've seen so far aren't impressive for his height, and caps his potential upside as a small 5 if he can't protect the rim. But I've also heard that those measurements are outdated. So, we'll see.
(Uhoh, we're going to force VF to make a Bagley thread, too!)
(Uhoh, we're going to force VF to make a Bagley thread, too!)
One thing I heard today about Donciv’s 3% - if you take away end of shot clock/quarter heaves - it goes up close to 5%. A lot of other shots are coming off the dribble. They said his catch and shoot numbers are solid - but I don’t have a %.
I like your take on Bagley - but I still have him #3 due to all the improvements that would need to happen for him to flourish as a #1 option and his unclear role on D. His motor makes me want to believe.
I like your take on Bagley - but I still have him #3 due to all the improvements that would need to happen for him to flourish as a #1 option and his unclear role on D. His motor makes me want to believe.
You just hope Vlade's blueprint isnt to go with this whole small ball thing and that is not what he is working towards.
Every all star backcourt underperformed this playoffs bar'ing the HOF ones - Warriors and Rockets. The raptors with Lowry and Derozen got swept, Portland with Lillard and CJ McCollum underwhelmed, the wizards with Wall and Beale didnt gain consistency all season. Its clear that building around an all star backcourt is not the way to a championship - even Paul and Harden, two future HOF'ers are struggling v the Warriors who are teamwork personified. They will most likely come up against Boston, again a blue collar team who without their stars is teamwork personified.
A balanced team is the only way to truly contend and having dominant mobile big man is the way to go to counter the misguided fallacy which is pace and small ball. Ayton and Giles with Buddy/Bog/Fox is very much the blueprint we need to be looking at. Solidarity at every position with a coach who emphasizes defence and teamwork, that will bring a championship to Sac.
PHX just needs to go with Doncic and we need to go with Ayton
Every all star backcourt underperformed this playoffs bar'ing the HOF ones - Warriors and Rockets. The raptors with Lowry and Derozen got swept, Portland with Lillard and CJ McCollum underwhelmed, the wizards with Wall and Beale didnt gain consistency all season. Its clear that building around an all star backcourt is not the way to a championship - even Paul and Harden, two future HOF'ers are struggling v the Warriors who are teamwork personified. They will most likely come up against Boston, again a blue collar team who without their stars is teamwork personified.
A balanced team is the only way to truly contend and having dominant mobile big man is the way to go to counter the misguided fallacy which is pace and small ball. Ayton and Giles with Buddy/Bog/Fox is very much the blueprint we need to be looking at. Solidarity at every position with a coach who emphasizes defence and teamwork, that will bring a championship to Sac.
PHX just needs to go with Doncic and we need to go with Ayton
First off I agree with your statement about acquiring talent at the expense of a possible franchise player.
The problem is if Giles and Ayton are both franchise players but the same player and neither can stretch the floor. If you think one can play the 4 you are good but if neither can you have an issue.
The problem is if Giles and Ayton are both franchise players but the same player and neither can stretch the floor. If you think one can play the 4 you are good but if neither can you have an issue.
The international part of me loves Dončić and wants him, but the rational part of me says get the big man who no one can stop. I know the Warriors are elite and a dynasty, but who on that team could stop Ayton? No one. KD is a twig compared to Ayton. That's an example of course.
Luka though has to be the best consolation prize of the last 10 years. I would be ecstatic having him. He just makes teams go and maybe that has more value than I'm seeing. Bagley is good, but he's not a team changer. Ayton is a monster and Luka is a glue guy and potential star/superstar rolled into one. Lots of Ginobili in his game. It's those two for me unless we trade down. Shouldn't even be a thought and I'd be pissed if we traded it away for a player. I don't care who said player is. Rookie contracts are gold!
Luka though has to be the best consolation prize of the last 10 years. I would be ecstatic having him. He just makes teams go and maybe that has more value than I'm seeing. Bagley is good, but he's not a team changer. Ayton is a monster and Luka is a glue guy and potential star/superstar rolled into one. Lots of Ginobili in his game. It's those two for me unless we trade down. Shouldn't even be a thought and I'd be pissed if we traded it away for a player. I don't care who said player is. Rookie contracts are gold!
Giles has literally not played a single second of an NBA game. I'm as excited about him as the rest of you, but let's not get carried away here. Giles has proven nothing and he should not influence who we pick. Best talent available is who we should be drafting and then you work out the rest. Drafting for need is not for lottery teams like us.
I hate to harp on this since it's probably completely off topic, but I honestly can't help myself.
So let's consider the following lottery procedures:
A) The current procedure: Lotto combos are handed out in blocks from a look-up table, the order of the teams in the look-up table is determined by lotto position, and thus the coin toss determines which specific combos go to the Bulls and which go to the Kings.
B) Lotto combos are handed out in blocks from a look-up table, but ALPHABETICALLY by team, so that the Kings would get the exact same combos if they won or lost the coin toss.
C) There are no lotto combos, but a literal 1000 ping-pong balls placed into a hopper, with both the Kings and the Bulls getting 53 ping-pong balls with their logos on them.
Now imagine that the Bulls win the coin toss, and then the Kings end up with the #2 pick in each of these scenarios. In which of these scenarios would you consider the Kings to have "lost" the coin toss?
So let's consider the following lottery procedures:
A) The current procedure: Lotto combos are handed out in blocks from a look-up table, the order of the teams in the look-up table is determined by lotto position, and thus the coin toss determines which specific combos go to the Bulls and which go to the Kings.
B) Lotto combos are handed out in blocks from a look-up table, but ALPHABETICALLY by team, so that the Kings would get the exact same combos if they won or lost the coin toss.
C) There are no lotto combos, but a literal 1000 ping-pong balls placed into a hopper, with both the Kings and the Bulls getting 53 ping-pong balls with their logos on them.
Now imagine that the Bulls win the coin toss, and then the Kings end up with the #2 pick in each of these scenarios. In which of these scenarios would you consider the Kings to have "lost" the coin toss?
Maybe it's best to consider the coin flip itself as more neutral in nature. You can "win" by "losing" but in reality if you take two teams picking 6-10 in any given draft and swap their immediate draft order I bet more often than not the teams wind up with the same player regardless of draft position. Captain you are the math wizard so I will let you come with an exact percentage on that figure 
I don't think his hiring had anything to do with Doncic. Kokoskov has been coaching in the U.S. as an assistant since 1999 and in the NBA since 2000 with five of those years being with the Suns from 2008-2013. He likely still had fans in the organization.
Plus the Suns had something like a 40% chance of not getting a top 2 pick. Why would you hire a coach on a coin flip chance that you'd be able to draft a particular player that isn't even a clear #1 prospect?
He did coach the Slovenian team but that's only been the last two summers
Plus the Suns had something like a 40% chance of not getting a top 2 pick. Why would you hire a coach on a coin flip chance that you'd be able to draft a particular player that isn't even a clear #1 prospect?
He did coach the Slovenian team but that's only been the last two summers
But Ayton is a versatile perimeter threat. That's what makes him so dangerous. He's huge and physical inside but he looks really good stepping out and popping jumpers even from three point range, he can face up and dribble drive, and he can shoot midrange jumpers right over the top of defenders. You're missing big time on Ayton if you think he's a dinosaur from the Post-Up era. That's not who he is at all. He resembles those guys physically but he's a modern big man all the way.
I also think you're selling Doncic short if you're judging him on highlight reels of flashy passes. I don't see athleticism being a problem for him even in the NBA. There are some world class athletes in the Euroleague too and Doncic has been able to make a lot of them look silly with his stop start moves and crossovers. If you can throw people off balance you don't need a lightning fast first step to get by them. If you watch James Harden play and then switch over and watch Doncic, it's eerie how similar some of their dribble moves are and both of them like to follow it up with a step back jumper or a drive into space and quick outlet pass. That's your (likely) MVP of the NBA this year. Yes I realize Harden tested out as an above-average athlete coming out of school but he rarely relies on that athleticism in games. And it really doesn't matter what other Euro prospects have done before. There was no Dirk before Dirk. There was no precedent for Tony Parker or Manu Ginobili or Giannis Antetekuonmpo either. No prospect has done what Doncic is doing at his age in the Euroleague before.
He might indeed get some GM fired but I think it's far more likely to be for passing on him than drafting him. You've got a guy who is dominating in a professional league as a teenager, current NBA players are saying he's the best they've ever seen at his age, and you passed on him for what reason? Because this other guy can jump higher? What are we doing here building a basketball team or competing in a decathlon?
I also think you're selling Doncic short if you're judging him on highlight reels of flashy passes. I don't see athleticism being a problem for him even in the NBA. There are some world class athletes in the Euroleague too and Doncic has been able to make a lot of them look silly with his stop start moves and crossovers. If you can throw people off balance you don't need a lightning fast first step to get by them. If you watch James Harden play and then switch over and watch Doncic, it's eerie how similar some of their dribble moves are and both of them like to follow it up with a step back jumper or a drive into space and quick outlet pass. That's your (likely) MVP of the NBA this year. Yes I realize Harden tested out as an above-average athlete coming out of school but he rarely relies on that athleticism in games. And it really doesn't matter what other Euro prospects have done before. There was no Dirk before Dirk. There was no precedent for Tony Parker or Manu Ginobili or Giannis Antetekuonmpo either. No prospect has done what Doncic is doing at his age in the Euroleague before.
He might indeed get some GM fired but I think it's far more likely to be for passing on him than drafting him. You've got a guy who is dominating in a professional league as a teenager, current NBA players are saying he's the best they've ever seen at his age, and you passed on him for what reason? Because this other guy can jump higher? What are we doing here building a basketball team or competing in a decathlon?
I still think they are 60-40 to Ayton. Without the coach I'd say 80-20 Ayton. They have a lot invested in smaller players and gaping needs up front. The best part is I think we are in better position than they are to thrive with both. I really hope we stand pat, don't overthink, and take the one who is there at 2.
Maybe I'm falling victim to hype but it seems like knowing what we know about the way the game has evolved this decade these two would be the top pick in almost any of the last few drafts. I do think it is why so many teams so blatantly tanked more than usual and I also think it is why there are 2-3 teams around the league who are super salty right now.
You take who we get and thank your lucky stars we got them.
You take who we get and thank your lucky stars we got them.