Current Team Discussion and Possible Trades
- Thread starter macadocious
- Start date
- Status
He's connected with Cousins and brought in Joerger. The two most critical moves in the 10 years since Adelman. Everything else is near irrelevant, and too soon to tell. he's got a strategy, it has yet to fully play out. Malachi or Bogdan could be a solid starting SG going forward, Skal could turn into the starting PF. Or not. We could shed contracts and be players in next year's free agency...or not. But he's a man with a plan, which is something in and of itself.
I am sorry but you are the one that clearly has it in for Cousins because you might not like his style or you might not like that he is not a run and gun type.
Problem I have with this approach is that it is preconceived and as such holds an agenda. It is so easy to perform a surface level analysis of well, the franchise is not winning so it MUST be Cousins' fault! Right?! So out of those coaches and GMs that you talk of which one of them hold the same position currently in the NBA? Mike Malone is the ONLY one and guess what? He also just happens to be a coach who was on the same page as Cousins. So if it isn't the about the past coaches and GMs then why are those exact same people not doing performing in the identical role away from Sacramento because you know it is all Cousins' fault around here?
Where is Paul Westphal? What about Kenny Knatt? Oh, Keith Smart is such a great head coach that he is currently leading his own team to the play offs as a head coach? What about Tyrone Corbin? What about god's gift to basketball in George Karl? What is he doing these days? Oh by the way why was it that this legendary coach was sacked by Denver a week or so after winning coach of the year award? That there might tell you enough to realize that you are barking up a wrong tree. How do Melo and Igoudala feel about George Karl? Do you think that Cousins was the ONLY player that had a problem with the coach?
Now that we have covered off the coaches, how about executives. Is Chris Mullin even in the NBA these days? Last time I checked he was back in New York coaching a high school or college ball. Sounds like a heck of a demotion for me? What about the two moves ahead PDA? Still buried in the dungeon somewhere working on the legal side of contracts.
People need to realize that this franchise was a mess when Vivek bought it from Maloofs. They also need to realize that it was even bigger mess when Vlade took over the reigns from PDA and Mullin. These things do NOT change overnight. Mistake that Vlade made was not firing Karl as soon as that season completed. Doesn't matter that PDA just gave Karl a nice retirement contract that will cost the franchise.
Step one of this mess to hire a coach with a proven track record and the style that will suit the franchise player. Last time I checked that is what EVERY good team does out there, they play to the strengths of their franchise player and despite what you think, DeMarcus Cousins IS a franchise level player. Next step is to slowly rebuild the culture. This is not going to happen over night. Other than the blow out to the Bucks and a 4th quarter collapse against the Jazz, this team has been in every game at the end there but you are right in saying that they don't know how to win. This is another thing that you have to learn and there is a "school" that you need to go through. It doesn't matter how experienced the individual players are, they are not experienced in this system and with these team mates.
So all Vlade has done is reach his franchise player (what every good GM tries to do out there), hire a good coach with a proven track record (what every GM wants to do out there), try and replenish the youth on the team after years of pissing draft picks and talent into the wind under the guidance of ever so great PDA. Let's not forget that McLemore and Stauskas were all picked under PDA's regime. Let's also not forget that talent like Tyreke Evans and Isaiah Thomas were lost for sweet **** all under PDA's regime. One good thing he did was trade for Gay to try and replenish the talent level that way but then he proceeded to trade IT2 for practically nothing. Collison signing was a solid move but for around $2M a season more, he could have kept IT2 instead.
So has Vlade been perfect?! No! However one thing that he has that NONE of the previous GM/Advisors/coaches had was a clear plan of what type of team he wants. It is very much work in progress but you have to pay your dues. Vlade's first job was to clean up the mess that was left behind. He has done that in good part. He has attempted to build on the fly with veteran signings but he has also tried to replenish the roster with youth. Time will tell if he got the picks right but from all the rookies out there, I am not exactly seeing someone that he has flat our missed on last year. The year before, you could argue that he should have taken Booker over WCS. In hindsight, sure but I think majority of this board liked the WCS pick next to Cousins.
This was always going to be a challenge but like always there is HOPE that things will work out better than expected. I think this season, the culture is slowly being changed and foundations built. This team needed to learn how to compete first and I think they are doing that well. Next step is learning how to win. Sure you will point to veteran players and say they should know how to win. They are all playing for a new coach, and a new system. They are learning and coach is learning about them. It took Malone a full season just to get the team to be competitive and improve. Joerger will probably have a similar timetable. Time if more important now that it was a few year ago for obvious reasons but it still won't magically happen.
I don't agree with a lot of things Vlade or Joerger have done but I am hell of a lot more comfortable with them two running the show and making decisions than I have been with Mullin/PDA/Karl trio. At least here there is a clear plan of what they want to achieve and there are things being put in place to achieve those. With PDA, there really was no plan. He talked pace despite having a big man as a franchise piece that is really not made for pace. He wanted to implement the Denver way in Sacramento despite there being no logic behind it. At least Vlade and Joerger have a plan that makes some sense.
So no, this is not all about GM and Coach sucking up to Cousins. This is about building around Cousins which every franchise in their right mind in the NBA would be doing. Not push him out of town because he doesn't fit a preconceived idea of how the team should play. Great coaches play to franchise player's strengths, not against them.
Problem I have with this approach is that it is preconceived and as such holds an agenda. It is so easy to perform a surface level analysis of well, the franchise is not winning so it MUST be Cousins' fault! Right?! So out of those coaches and GMs that you talk of which one of them hold the same position currently in the NBA? Mike Malone is the ONLY one and guess what? He also just happens to be a coach who was on the same page as Cousins. So if it isn't the about the past coaches and GMs then why are those exact same people not doing performing in the identical role away from Sacramento because you know it is all Cousins' fault around here?
Where is Paul Westphal? What about Kenny Knatt? Oh, Keith Smart is such a great head coach that he is currently leading his own team to the play offs as a head coach? What about Tyrone Corbin? What about god's gift to basketball in George Karl? What is he doing these days? Oh by the way why was it that this legendary coach was sacked by Denver a week or so after winning coach of the year award? That there might tell you enough to realize that you are barking up a wrong tree. How do Melo and Igoudala feel about George Karl? Do you think that Cousins was the ONLY player that had a problem with the coach?
Now that we have covered off the coaches, how about executives. Is Chris Mullin even in the NBA these days? Last time I checked he was back in New York coaching a high school or college ball. Sounds like a heck of a demotion for me? What about the two moves ahead PDA? Still buried in the dungeon somewhere working on the legal side of contracts.
People need to realize that this franchise was a mess when Vivek bought it from Maloofs. They also need to realize that it was even bigger mess when Vlade took over the reigns from PDA and Mullin. These things do NOT change overnight. Mistake that Vlade made was not firing Karl as soon as that season completed. Doesn't matter that PDA just gave Karl a nice retirement contract that will cost the franchise.
Step one of this mess to hire a coach with a proven track record and the style that will suit the franchise player. Last time I checked that is what EVERY good team does out there, they play to the strengths of their franchise player and despite what you think, DeMarcus Cousins IS a franchise level player. Next step is to slowly rebuild the culture. This is not going to happen over night. Other than the blow out to the Bucks and a 4th quarter collapse against the Jazz, this team has been in every game at the end there but you are right in saying that they don't know how to win. This is another thing that you have to learn and there is a "school" that you need to go through. It doesn't matter how experienced the individual players are, they are not experienced in this system and with these team mates.
So all Vlade has done is reach his franchise player (what every good GM tries to do out there), hire a good coach with a proven track record (what every GM wants to do out there), try and replenish the youth on the team after years of pissing draft picks and talent into the wind under the guidance of ever so great PDA. Let's not forget that McLemore and Stauskas were all picked under PDA's regime. Let's also not forget that talent like Tyreke Evans and Isaiah Thomas were lost for sweet **** all under PDA's regime. One good thing he did was trade for Gay to try and replenish the talent level that way but then he proceeded to trade IT2 for practically nothing. Collison signing was a solid move but for around $2M a season more, he could have kept IT2 instead.
So has Vlade been perfect?! No! However one thing that he has that NONE of the previous GM/Advisors/coaches had was a clear plan of what type of team he wants. It is very much work in progress but you have to pay your dues. Vlade's first job was to clean up the mess that was left behind. He has done that in good part. He has attempted to build on the fly with veteran signings but he has also tried to replenish the roster with youth. Time will tell if he got the picks right but from all the rookies out there, I am not exactly seeing someone that he has flat our missed on last year. The year before, you could argue that he should have taken Booker over WCS. In hindsight, sure but I think majority of this board liked the WCS pick next to Cousins.
This was always going to be a challenge but like always there is HOPE that things will work out better than expected. I think this season, the culture is slowly being changed and foundations built. This team needed to learn how to compete first and I think they are doing that well. Next step is learning how to win. Sure you will point to veteran players and say they should know how to win. They are all playing for a new coach, and a new system. They are learning and coach is learning about them. It took Malone a full season just to get the team to be competitive and improve. Joerger will probably have a similar timetable. Time if more important now that it was a few year ago for obvious reasons but it still won't magically happen.
I don't agree with a lot of things Vlade or Joerger have done but I am hell of a lot more comfortable with them two running the show and making decisions than I have been with Mullin/PDA/Karl trio. At least here there is a clear plan of what they want to achieve and there are things being put in place to achieve those. With PDA, there really was no plan. He talked pace despite having a big man as a franchise piece that is really not made for pace. He wanted to implement the Denver way in Sacramento despite there being no logic behind it. At least Vlade and Joerger have a plan that makes some sense.
So no, this is not all about GM and Coach sucking up to Cousins. This is about building around Cousins which every franchise in their right mind in the NBA would be doing. Not push him out of town because he doesn't fit a preconceived idea of how the team should play. Great coaches play to franchise player's strengths, not against them.
K
Offensively he' basically playing exactly the same as he did under Karl shooting 3's and driving from the 3 point line and he's now also being asked to guard smaller quicker players by DJ cause he's playing PF (which is a very tough position to defend now-days with all the stretch 4's/skilled players) because the coach refuses to not play Koufos he's failed playing next to Cousins for two seasons straight.
That's my gripe with him at the moment. He is falling in love with the jump shot way too much, it's really annoying to watch. I mean I'd rather watch him shoot a three then to see Rudy Gay shoot a contested fade away, so there is that at least. Turn down some of those three point attempts and replace it with some more post work.
Less of a crapshoot than someone who has zero experience in the FO. PDA was one example. That's a far cry from often prove to be a bad choice.
BTW I'm not sure how you would even know no other better GM's were available. You stated it as fact, but I never received news that capable GM's were off the board.
BTW I'm not sure how you would even know no other better GM's were available. You stated it as fact, but I never received news that capable GM's were off the board.
Wait. You're suggesting that assistant GMs are less of a crapshoot that former players? Sure, you might be able to to find an example here or there, but as a general rule that is quite the over-generalization. For my money, Vlade, who played with Magic Johnson, who was some bad calls away from winnign a championship, who was part of the Serbian Olympic Committee, is far, far, far less of a risk that an assistant GM like PDA who had no loyalty or ties to Sacramento whatsoever.
Hey @Bricklayer
I am definitely in the don't trade Demarcus train. Not only am I positive he wants to be here but I am like 80% sure he would resign an extension to stay as well. I have some sorta inside info on that, friend of a friend type stuff. All that being said...at what point are you ok with trading him? There has to be a breaking point and I am curious as to what that is?
For me, if we head into the trade deadline and we are bottom 3-5 teams in the league if I am Vlade/Ken I get everything we possibly can get for him and more and then ask Joerger what type of team he wants to build and go get those guys in the draft.
I am definitely in the don't trade Demarcus train. Not only am I positive he wants to be here but I am like 80% sure he would resign an extension to stay as well. I have some sorta inside info on that, friend of a friend type stuff. All that being said...at what point are you ok with trading him? There has to be a breaking point and I am curious as to what that is?
For me, if we head into the trade deadline and we are bottom 3-5 teams in the league if I am Vlade/Ken I get everything we possibly can get for him and more and then ask Joerger what type of team he wants to build and go get those guys in the draft.
Here is a good list of current NBA GM's, if you click their name it shows all of their experience. Odd that Vlade isn't listed
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/staff-members/16/General-Manager/Current
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/staff-members/16/General-Manager/Current
I gave you a long list above (only the ones I could think of quickly) of former players with little or no experience that became GMs. Oddly enough, more succeeded than failed. It seems to me (based only on my own memory) that the asst. GMs that got jobs succeeded less than half the time. Hence my point, it is a crap shoot either way.
K
A lot of times Assistant GMs will learn from successful Gms on what it takes to win aka their boss. Much like Assistant Coaches learning from head coaches. I am not sure who your favorite NFL team is, but would you be ok with the Raiders randomly hiring Rich Gannon, with no experience ever doing anything with player personnel, to be the GM just because Rich Gannon played for the Raiders years ago? or the 49ers(in a huge slump right now due to bad decisions and cannot afford more, much like the Kings) hiring Joe Montana as the GM just because he was a great QB there?
I don't really watch football so I can't say for certain. But I'm not really clear on what you think they will learn from assistant GMs? Are you suggesting that being an assistant GM might make a person a better talent evaluator that someone who spent 20+ years of their life playing the game and perhaps over a decade professionally?
edit: Put it another way - suppose an assistant GM was formally trained as an attorney and had the job because he or she was really great at contract negotiations. What about that makes them a better GM candidate than a former player?
edit: Put it another way - suppose an assistant GM was formally trained as an attorney and had the job because he or she was really great at contract negotiations. What about that makes them a better GM candidate than a former player?
K
Having the knowledge it takes to get talent, to evaluate. GM's have their own strategies and formulas to come up with this stuff. Some of these guys do this for years and years, looking for the same indicators. You don't just hire someone to be a GM because they played during a time we were a winning team and it brings back good memories for everyone which is what Vivek did. He needed the community support when the team was moving into a new arena and at the time had just fired Malone.
There are other attributes the assistant GM would learn, under the GM, that would help them improve and get stronger. When you have never worked under a GM and have no clue how things work, how are you supposed to be a GM? That is like me waking up tomorrow and saying "you know what, I want to be a lawyer so I am going to go to a big firm and get hired up top" then the management at the big firm being dumb enough to hire me for a job I have no clue about
There are other attributes the assistant GM would learn, under the GM, that would help them improve and get stronger. When you have never worked under a GM and have no clue how things work, how are you supposed to be a GM? That is like me waking up tomorrow and saying "you know what, I want to be a lawyer so I am going to go to a big firm and get hired up top" then the management at the big firm being dumb enough to hire me for a job I have no clue about
The question you keep dodging is: what is that knowledge? What is it that they know that no one else does? What is it that having some experience as an assistant GM that gives them GM abilities. And why does that mean they know how to put together a winning team more than someone who actually played the game?
What I've gathered from your response is - there isn't any skill that you can point to that a former player with a good contracts lawyer or guy with good CBA knowledge can't get done. And that's exactly what Vlade's staff consists of.
What I've gathered from your response is - there isn't any skill that you can point to that a former player with a good contracts lawyer or guy with good CBA knowledge can't get done. And that's exactly what Vlade's staff consists of.
How would you guys feel about bringing in European players for next year?
I really like Kosta Sloukas and Nicolo Melli. Both guys are in their prime and ready for the NBA imo.
PG Kosta Sloukas 6'3 210lbs.
20 games this season: 27mins
Greek Curry 
I really like Kosta Sloukas and Nicolo Melli. Both guys are in their prime and ready for the NBA imo.
PG Kosta Sloukas 6'3 210lbs.
20 games this season: 27mins
- 11.6pts 5.4asts 2.3rebs 2.85tos 0.5stls
- 51% FG
- 49% 3PT
- 91% FT
Last edited:
How would you guys feel about bringing in European players for next year?
I really like Kosta Sloukas and Nicolo Melli. Both guys are in their prime and ready for the NBA imo.
PG Kosta Sloukas 6'3 210lbs.
20 games this season: 27mins
Greek Curry
I really like Kosta Sloukas and Nicolo Melli. Both guys are in their prime and ready for the NBA imo.
PG Kosta Sloukas 6'3 210lbs.
20 games this season: 27mins
- 11.6pts 5.4asts 2.3rebs 2.85tos 0.5stls
- 51% FG
- 49% 3PT
- 91% FT
OK that wasn't great but I would be happy with an all European team if they brought us a championship.
- Status