Current Team Discussion and Possible Trades

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Don't know how much validity this rumor has to it, but I read about it on three different sites, none of which are mainstream by the way, but who knows, where there's smoke there might be fire. According to the article talks between the Kings and the Bulls is heating up again and this time with the Suns involved. In short, Gay would go to the Bulls. Gibson would go to the Suns and Knight would go to the Kings. I ran the trade through trade checker and it works. If true, if I were the Kings I would include the Bulls relinquishing their rights to our draft pick for next season.

Here's a link. http://www.inquisitr.com/3367618/nb...ns-and-sacramento-kings-talk-three-way-trade/
This actually looks like a fair deal for all parties involved.

I would do it, if I were Vlade.

Allows us to get a legit starting PG and moves a disgruntled player in Gay, who we would lose anyways next year. Also allows a hard nosed defender into the SF position, either Barnes or Casspi would start at SF.

I don't think that Chicago would relinquish the 1st rounder though.

PF: WCS / Toliver /Skal
SF: Casspi/ Barnes
C DMC / KK / Papa
SG: Afflalo / Temple / McClemore / Richardson
PG: Knight / Collison
 
This actually looks like a fair deal for all parties involved.

I would do it, if I were Vlade.

Allows us to get a legit starting PG and moves a disgruntled player in Gay, who we would lose anyways next year. Also allows a hard nosed defender into the SF position, either Barnes or Casspi would start at SF.

I don't think that Chicago would relinquish the 1st rounder though.

PF: WCS / Toliver /Skal
SF: Casspi/ Barnes
C DMC / KK / Papa
SG: Afflalo / Temple / McClemore / Richardson
PG: Knight / Collison
It's a solid return but not outstanding. It does make sense for the Kings since Rudy clearly wants out and you don't want any lingering drama heading into the training camp. I wouldn't call Casspi a hard nosed defender, he is more of a scrapper that is not a great defender but he is a bit of a workhorse who will give 100% every time he steps on the court.

I would love to give up a bit more in that deal if we can get Bledsoe back. Him and DMC would be good blocks to build around, both have chemistry and are good friends off the court but I doubt there is much interest from us because of the knee injury and uncertainty of how he comes back and I am not sure that Phoenix would want to trade him if he is healthy.
 

bajaden

Hall of Famer
It's a solid return but not outstanding. It does make sense for the Kings since Rudy clearly wants out and you don't want any lingering drama heading into the training camp. I wouldn't call Casspi a hard nosed defender, he is more of a scrapper that is not a great defender but he is a bit of a workhorse who will give 100% every time he steps on the court.

I would love to give up a bit more in that deal if we can get Bledsoe back. Him and DMC would be good blocks to build around, both have chemistry and are good friends off the court but I doubt there is much interest from us because of the knee injury and uncertainty of how he comes back and I am not sure that Phoenix would want to trade him if he is healthy.
According to one of the articles I read, the team holding up the deal is the Kings, so maybe Vlade is holding out for a bit more on the deal.
 
Everybody forgets that Karls offense was give the ball to Rondo. Karl took last season off, on offense and defense. He told Rondo to push the pace and then told the defense to switch on screens. That is ALL he did. And thats ALL we saw.
 
According to one of the articles I read, the team holding up the deal is the Kings, so maybe Vlade is holding out for a bit more on the deal.
Maybe he wants that pick back from Chicago :D

Knight could work here is he is reigned in so he is not a shot happy chucking guard. He is signed to a longer term deal on what is a pretty reasonable money by today's standard and he is only 24 years old. His best is still ahead of him.

It does help that he can create his own shot as well.
 
You make it sound like Gay is major reason for our lousy defense...it cannot be further from the truth. Gay was a key member of the staring 5 that was statistically the best defensive staring line up in the NBA for the entire season 2014-2015.

Gay is not the problem. Defensive scheme has been. You can't got from a good defender to a lousy one in a space of one season in your prime years. Players don't lose that ability over night. It has a lot more to do with the system than Gay himself. Change the system (which is what we are doing) and you get a different player. You can fit a square peg into a round hole.
Nail. Head.

Gay was a key cog in the last Team USA run in the World Champs. He is NOT just a throwaway. He is a decent 2 way player that excels offensively in a 1on1 situation but can also be pretty dangerous in a passing/decoy system because of his handle. I get that some poaters think he isnt worth Bledsoe straight up. However, Bledsoe has never been considered for USA ball and Gay has, and has been there too. Food.
 
Nail. Head.

Gay was a key cog in the last Team USA run in the World Champs. He is NOT just a throwaway. He is a decent 2 way player that excels offensively in a 1on1 situation but can also be pretty dangerous in a passing/decoy system because of his handle. I get that some poaters think he isnt worth Bledsoe straight up. However, Bledsoe has never been considered for USA ball and Gay has, and has been there too. Food.
That's precisely the opposite actually... Rudy had been a complete failure for us as a number one option and when he goes 1 on 1, it usually doesn't end well. In fact, I usually cringe. Rudy is at his best when he's put into situations where he can succeed and when Cuz is out there getting all the attention, allowing Rudy to be aggressive. When Cuz is sitting though...

His handle is slightly above average for a 3, but he gets really loose using it and can be quite reckless. Not the greatest ball handler that's for sure.
 
Nail. Head.

Gay was a key cog in the last Team USA run in the World Champs. He is NOT just a throwaway. He is a decent 2 way player that excels offensively in a 1on1 situation but can also be pretty dangerous in a passing/decoy system because of his handle. I get that some poaters think he isnt worth Bledsoe straight up. However, Bledsoe has never been considered for USA ball and Gay has, and has been there too. Food.
Team USA is so far ahead of any other team in the world, that I don't think you can seriously compare the defensive performance on Team USA with the defensive performance when facing actual NBA competition. You know what's true for Cousins is true for Gay. His role on Team USA was entirely different from his role with his NBA teams. He was an offensive afterthought and was asked to earn his spot by hustling and playing defense. This proves he is able to play D when motivated and against inferior opponents with lots of help from his team. Now I think nobody can doubt, that Rudy is able to play D. Of course he can. Problem is he doesn't show it on the court.
Rudy Gay was a two way player only during a very short time span in SAC.
Yes we can argue, that his lack of defense is solely a coaching issue or is caused by all the turmoil over the years. But at some point we have to look at the player himself. Is Rudy really willing to play defense? Was Rondo willing to play defense?
Well to me both players look disinterested on that end of the floor. Ironically Cousins gets all kind of heat for being disinterested on D, while to me Rudy and Rajon looked far worse than him. You know Boogie is a 6'11 kind of heavy dude, so I expect him to be late getting back a few times during a game. And even though he is late a bit too often, he is our best defender by far when our defense is correctly set up, making crucial defensive plays almost every game. When was the last time Rudy made a crucial defensive play? Honestly I can't remember anymore.
And when Cousins gets heat for his D, lets look at it like this: Rajon is a guard with decent quickness and great awareness. Rudy is still a Top-10 guy, when it comes to athleticism for his position. What's their excuse for their poor defensive performances? For the countless missed rotations, lazy closeouts, horrible switches and so on?

The defensive scheme? A zone scheme that involves lots of switching is not an excuse for lazyness and simply not caring.
Yes it's a bad idea to play a scheme based on switching screens with two guards barely 6'0 tall. But no coach on this earth will tell his players to close out to the 3pt line, like we did last season. No coach will tell his players to switch screens without even trying to fight over it or without even trying to switch back in order to prevent missmatches.
You won't find players considered to be good defenders doing this, no matter who coaches them.
 
Don't know how much validity this rumor has to it, but I read about it on three different sites, none of which are mainstream by the way, but who knows, where there's smoke there might be fire. According to the article talks between the Kings and the Bulls is heating up again and this time with the Suns involved. In short, Gay would go to the Bulls. Gibson would go to the Suns and Knight would go to the Kings. I ran the trade through trade checker and it works. If true, if I were the Kings I would include the Bulls relinquishing their rights to our draft pick for next season.

Here's a link. http://www.inquisitr.com/3367618/nb...ns-and-sacramento-kings-talk-three-way-trade/
I don't see why on earth the Suns would give up Knight for Gibson, a career backup on the last year of his deal. Suns signed a vet PF in Dudley and drafted Bender and Chriss. There is a better chance of Gay for Gibson then the three way trade.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I don't see why on earth the Suns would give up Knight for Gibson, a career backup on the last year of his deal. Suns signed a vet PF in Dudley and drafted Bender and Chriss. There is a better chance of Gay for Gibson then the three way trade.
If it were true they would clearly be trying to get out of that contract.

And Dudley is a SF BTW.

Thing is I have long wanted to get Gibson too. Maybe if we are the ones holding it up, so does Vlade. Would be an excellent PF next to Cuz.
 
I don't see why on earth the Suns would give up Knight for Gibson, a career backup on the last year of his deal. Suns signed a vet PF in Dudley and drafted Bender and Chriss. There is a better chance of Gay for Gibson then the three way trade.
Dudley is a big guard, primarily a small forward and barely a PF at 6' 7" and 225 lbs. Bender and Chriss are Rookies so the Suns might be interested in Gibson. Gibson can also play small ball center alongside behemoth PF Dudley:) Maybe the Suns want a Big PF like Rudy Gay.

I will concede no greater an authority than Basketball Reference dot com labels Dudley a PF (along with Guard and Small Forward)

Link---> http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dudleja01.html

Somewhere Don Nelson is laughing.
 
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KingMilz

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Dudley is a big guard, primarily a small forward and barely a PF at 6' 7" and 225 lbs. Bender and Chriss are Rookies so the Suns might be interested in Gibson. Gibson can also play small ball center alongside behemoth PF Dudley:) Maybe the Suns want a Big PF like Rudy Gay.

I will concede no greater an authority than Basketball Reference dot com labels Dudley a PF (along with Guard and Small Forward)

Link---> http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dudleja01.html

Somewhere Don Nelson is laughing.
He's played PF in Milwuekee /Washington (his 2 most recent stops) primarily as he's aged he's moved to the PF. They said during the Summer League telecast he will be the starting PF/will primarily play PF.
 
Everybody forgets that Karls offense was give the ball to Rondo. Karl took last season off, on offense and defense. He told Rondo to push the pace and then told the defense to switch on screens. That is ALL he did. And thats ALL we saw.
I doubt if Karl telling Rondo what to do on offense had any thing to do with how Rondo played offense. And I didn't see Rondo pushing it much. It was Rondo's show.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
He's played PF in Milwuekee /Washington (his 2 most recent stops) primarily as he's aged he's moved to the PF. They said during the Summer League telecast he will be the starting PF/will primarily play PF.
...and still won't be a PF.

Certainly not one you care if he's on your roster or not since he basically can't do anything a PF is supposed to do. We should see if we can throw in ben to get back Gibson, and convince them Ben is a PF too. Afterall he played it in H.S.
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
At least Draymond & Chuck Hayes have a standing reach of 8'9". Dudley is at a puny 8'6" with his small 6'7" wingspan.
I'm not sure why people are arguing if Dudley is a PF when both he and there GM during interviews said he would play PF/starting PF and his last two successful stints with the Bucks/Wizards were him playing PF while the stint he failed (not numbers wise but impact wise) in with the Clippers he was a SF.

They clearly signed him cause he's a good guy first of all and can space the floor from the 4 spot and groom Bender/Chriss. I'm not sure why this is even an argument if Quincy Acy can play the 4 on a lottery team the last two season's than so can Dudley and he's done it at a much higher level.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
I'm not sure why people are arguing if Dudley is a PF when both he and there GM during interviews said he would play PF/starting PF and his last two successful stints with the Bucks/Wizards were him playing PF while the stint he failed (not numbers wise but impact wise) in with the Clippers he was a SF.

They clearly signed him cause he's a good guy first of all and can space the floor from the 4 spot and groom Bender/Chriss. I'm not sure why this is even an argument if Quincy Acy can play the 4 on a lottery team the last two season's than so can Dudley and he's done it at a much higher level.
If 7pts 3rebs as a platoon starter is some sort of high level, we're going to just have to agree to disagree.

Maybe 5 years ago he had respect and overrating as a roleplaying SF. He's compeltely random as a "PF". His only vaguely applicable skill is shooting the three. You could put literally any SF in the league at 'PF" and call them a PF. Doesn't make it so.

Not sure how Acy got thrown in here, as he's clearly a deep bencher too. Which brings us back around to the point you don't not make a move because you've got some midget old dude who might be able to give you 7pts 3rebs while getting tree topped every play. We've probably got 3 SFs who could cal themselves a "PF" just as easily.
 
I'm not sure why people are arguing if Dudley is a PF when both he and there GM during interviews said he would play PF/starting PF and his last two successful stints with the Bucks/Wizards were him playing PF while the stint he failed (not numbers wise but impact wise) in with the Clippers he was a SF.

They clearly signed him cause he's a good guy first of all and can space the floor from the 4 spot and groom Bender/Chriss. I'm not sure why this is even an argument if Quincy Acy can play the 4 on a lottery team the last two season's than so can Dudley and he's done it at a much higher level.
Well the team's offensive rating and defensive rating were both better when he was at SF last season, so there's that...

SF (63% of his minutes)
Off Rating per 100 Poss: 104.6
Def Rating per 100 Poss: 103.1
Net Overall Rating: +1.5

PF (37% of his minutes)
Off Rating per 100 Poss: 103.9
Def Rating per 100 Poss: 103.2
Net Overall Rating: +0.7


On Milwaukee, he was even worse as a PF.

SG (36% of his minutes)
Off Rating per 100 Poss: 95.1
Def Rating per 100 Poss: 87.5
Net Overall Rating: +7.6

SF (56% of his minutes)
Off Rating per 100 Poss: 96.1
Def Rating per 100 Poss: 95.3
Net Overall Rating: +0.8

PF (8% of his minutes)
Off Rating per 100 Poss: 99.1
Def Rating per 100 Poss: 101.9
Net Overall Rating: -2.8


Bringing Acy up is kind of pointless. He's a benchwarmer. He has yet to play more than 20 mpg for any team he has played. He's not exactly the guy I would point to and say "he can do it, so Dudley can do it too!"

Besides, Acy has a standing reach of 8'10" while Dudley is still at his measly 8'6".
 
K

KingMilz

Guest
Dudley is expected to open the upcoming season as the Suns' starting power forward, Paul Coro of the Arizona Republic reports.
http://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/ba...ed-dudley-expected-to-start-at-power-forward/

The addition of Jared Dudley addresses a need at power forward, but his value to the young Phoenix Suns extends far beyond that.
https://hoopshabit.com/2016/07/09/phoenix-suns-the-importance-of-jared-dudleys-leadership/

With the Wizards last season, Dudley played 94 percent of his minutes at power forward,
http://arizonasports.com/story/738854/a-look-at-how-jared-dudley-can-impact-the-suns-offense/


Dudley is playing PF I'm not saying he's good but he's playing PF and if you have NBA league pass you can watch the Summer League Suns games where the GM clearly states that he will as did Dudley himself, I don't care what his standing reach is the point is this is what the SUNS organisation is saying not me.


55 secs in ''We wanted a guy at the PF spot"
 
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Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Dudley is expected to open the upcoming season as the Suns' starting power forward, Paul Coro of the Arizona Republic reports.
http://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/ba...ed-dudley-expected-to-start-at-power-forward/

The addition of Jared Dudley addresses a need at power forward, but his value to the young Phoenix Suns extends far beyond that.
https://hoopshabit.com/2016/07/09/phoenix-suns-the-importance-of-jared-dudleys-leadership/

With the Wizards last season, Dudley played 94 percent of his minutes at power forward,
http://arizonasports.com/story/738854/a-look-at-how-jared-dudley-can-impact-the-suns-offense/


Dudley is playing PF I'm not saying he's good but he's playing PF and if you have NBA league pass you can watch the Summer League Suns games where the GM clearly states that he will as did Dudley himself, I don't care what his standing reach is the point is this is what the SUNS organisation is saying not me.


55 secs in ''We wanted a guy at the PF spot"
What does that really say though? Don Nelson used to play Vincent Askew as a PF, but that didn't actually make him one. In fact having Dudley on the court basically means you are playing without a PF at all. And its more than just semantics. Dudley can basically do nothing a PF does, and doesn't even try to. he can;t rebound, can't defend the paint, can't post guys that big etc. So you really don't have a PF. And if he and Tucker are out there together I know which one of them is closer to PF hood.

More significantly of course, that statement doesn't say they are planning on starting him, that he's the answer or anything else. For the purposes of the little discussion above, Taj Gibson is clearly a much better option, if they can get him.
 
Dudley is expected to open the upcoming season as the Suns' starting power forward, Paul Coro of the Arizona Republic reports.
http://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/ba...ed-dudley-expected-to-start-at-power-forward/

The addition of Jared Dudley addresses a need at power forward, but his value to the young Phoenix Suns extends far beyond that.
https://hoopshabit.com/2016/07/09/phoenix-suns-the-importance-of-jared-dudleys-leadership/

With the Wizards last season, Dudley played 94 percent of his minutes at power forward,
http://arizonasports.com/story/738854/a-look-at-how-jared-dudley-can-impact-the-suns-offense/


Dudley is playing PF I'm not saying he's good but he's playing PF and if you have NBA league pass you can watch the Summer League Suns games where the GM clearly states that he will as did Dudley himself, I don't care what his standing reach is the point is this is what the SUNS organisation is saying not me.


55 secs in ''We wanted a guy at the PF spot"
We're arguing two different things. You're arguing that his team wants to play him at PF. We're arguing that he isn't a PF. Just because a team chooses to play him at PF, that then doesn't mean he is all of a sudden a PF. If the Kings decide to play Collison at C, does that all of a sudden make Collison a C? Of course not. That's all we're saying here.

Brick said it well when he said they are essentially choosing to play without a PF, but since it's traditional to call one of your 5 players a PF, he gets that position tied to him. He's not a PF. He's a SF, but the wizards chose to play two SFs or two SGs on the court a lot of the time. Again, it doesn't make him a PF.

Also, your article is wrong. Bryan Gibberman is wrong. Just because he says he played 94% of his minutes at PF doesn't make it so. He's shows absolutely no data to back that claim. Whereas if you go to 82games.com, it shows that he played about 63% (32%/51%) of his minutes at SF and 37% (19%/51%) at PF.

I also went through all of the Wizard lineups myself to calculate it. Below are the lineups that he played in when he was a SF & PF:

Dudley at SF
upload_2016-8-3_14-25-58.png

Dudley at PF
upload_2016-8-3_14-27-29.png

That indicates that 52% of Dudley's minutes were at SF with 48% at PF.

So what do you believe? Do you believe a random writer saying that he played 94% of his minutes at PF or do you believe two sources with data to back it up that pegs his minutes at PF between 37% & 48%?
 
It's amazing this Dudley conversation is happening. The NBA plays more Small Ball then ever? Is this surprise?

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2015/...hington-wizards-starting-lineup-power-forward

This isn't a debate about if Dudley is good or not because who cares but you could easily argue in today's NBA Jared Duley has never had more value. Position versatility is key in the NBA. A player that plays both SF and PF is a huge advantage for teams.
 
Now that Russel Westbrook signed an extension in OKC and is off the trade market, we should hopefully see some long awaited trades happening soon. :cool:
I think Cameron Payne+filler for Rudy Gay would be a good trade for both sides. Gay gives OKC another legit scoring option next to Westbrook. He only has 1 year left, but the Thunder are making a serious playoff push. Kings on the other hand? I don't know, but I think Payne is an extremely valuable asset. He could become the next big thing if developed correctly. Really young with a lot of potential on a rookie deal.

I think it's pretty clear that Gay will walk. Knowing that he walks after this season, would you rather have a valuable 22yearold asset in Cameron Payne? or nothing?

That's essentially what will happen if the Kings decide not to trade him.
 
I think Cameron Payne+filler for Rudy Gay would be a good trade for both sides. Gay gives OKC another legit scoring option next to Westbrook. He only has 1 year left, but the Thunder are making a serious playoff push. Kings on the other hand? I don't know, but I think Payne is an extremely valuable asset. He could become the next big thing if developed correctly. Really young with a lot of potential on a rookie deal.

I think it's pretty clear that Gay will walk. Knowing that he walks after this season, would you rather have a valuable 22yearold asset in Cameron Payne? or nothing?

That's essentially what will happen if the Kings decide not to trade him.
Call me crazy but something tells me we will have more options than Cameron Payne or nothing.
 
For the purposes of the little discussion above, Taj Gibson is clearly a much better option, if they can get him.
For a team like the Suns? Nope!
They want as much space as possible for their guards and as many spot up shooters able to knock down corner 3's on kickouts as possible.
Assuming they keep Chandler, they already have a guy capable of playing as a lone big.
Pretty much the Blazers blueprint only much less athletic (when Chriss or Bender aren't able to contribute right away) and not that talented.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
For a team like the Suns? Nope!
They want as much space as possible for their guards and as many spot up shooters able to knock down corner 3's on kickouts as possible.
Assuming they keep Chandler, they already have a guy capable of playing as a lone big.
Pretty much the Blazers blueprint only much less athletic (when Chriss or Bender aren't able to contribute right away) and not that talented.
Even for a team like the Suns.

there is NO team where Jared Dudley is an option at PF, unless they are tanking. And Gibson is a very legit PF who has range on that jumper as well. I don't think hitting 1 3pt shot a game, for a team built without anybody who needs the inside space anyway, gets remotely close to being able to defend and board at your position.

That's before we get to the obvious idea that if they did this part of it would be further rebuilding by shedding Knight's long term money to get back Gibson's ender.
 
Even for a team like the Suns.

there is NO team where Jared Dudley is an option at PF, unless they are tanking. And Gibson is a very legit PF who has range on that jumper as well. I don't think hitting 1 3pt shot a game, for a team built without anybody who needs the inside space anyway, gets remotely close to being able to defend and board at your position.

That's before we get to the obvious idea that if they did this part of it would be further rebuilding by shedding Knight's long term money to get back Gibson's ender.
I don't care if we name Dudley a PF or a SF or simply a basketball player. I don't care if you or me think it's a good idea to play with another 6'7 guy out there instead of a more traditional bigger forward. All I care about is what I witness right now while watching basketball and right now teams like playing with 4 guys able to stretch the floor out to the 3 point line and one guy to hold down the paint.
Miami played 4 sometimes 5 wing lineups during the Playoffs. The Blazers played Harkless or Aminu as their forwards and were pretty successful doing it. No need to talk about the Warriors. Wizards, Celtics - the list goes on and on.
So taking a look at the league right now it's an artificial discussion, if someone is a SF or PF. That's simply not how this league works right now. As a foward/big you can hit the 3 or you can defend the paint - in an ideal world you can do both like Ibaka, Porzingis, KAt, AD, Turner or Boogie. And while doing that, you must be able to defend pick&rolls and switch on guards. If you can't do that, you find yourself on the bench more often than not, because you are considered a liability.
The league will work this way until it's proven, that you can beat this playstyle by going big, slower and strong to rule the paint.
Will this ever happen? I don't know. So far it remains to be seen.

The blueprint of the Suns is clear as day, when you consider their best players and their draft picks. Scoring guards, athletic bigs, who can potentially stretch the floor and one guy with Len or Chandler to defend the paint, rebound and putback.
I doubt they trade for a guy like Gibson.
 
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