IT = Rumor of 3/24 offer from Pistons
- Thread starter John Galt
- Start date
- Status
But also after the season, Thomas says this:
We'll know soon enough how this is going to play out. But whether it's quotes from Twitter or other sources, you can really find anything to support one side or another. I'm not sure this exercise is very helpful.
We'll know soon enough how this is going to play out. But whether it's quotes from Twitter or other sources, you can really find anything to support one side or another. I'm not sure this exercise is very helpful.
That's all very nice, but we are a week into free agency now, and this much is obvious:
If Isaiah Thomas is on the roster next year its only because he/we discovered the Nate Robinson rule, and he's getting paid far less than he wants to, or we expected him too. That's just based on actual actions here. It also would be no credit to anyone's planning, but it is what it is. If he comes back, its because the market for his services was really soft. In essence because the naysayers and questioners turned out to be much more in alignment with league opinion than the jockers/his agent. If there's an actual meeting of the minds, if he's your guy, then it plays out like Lowry. You make a nice solid just above market offer, and boom its done. That's how it looks when you are sure you want a guy as a pillar. That's how it looked with Rudy too as we desperately pitched him to stay. But with IT not only are we waiting and waiting, but we even went so far as to sign another PG who could easily start (and reports say was promised the job), and who would be a very expensive backup that we could not afford, again unless the market for IT is so soft that he actually ends up getting paid LESS than Collison. I can't be 100% sure whether IT will be back next year, but I am quite sure that if he is its not going to be on the terms he wanted, or part of the grand plan for us.
If Isaiah Thomas is on the roster next year its only because he/we discovered the Nate Robinson rule, and he's getting paid far less than he wants to, or we expected him too. That's just based on actual actions here. It also would be no credit to anyone's planning, but it is what it is. If he comes back, its because the market for his services was really soft. In essence because the naysayers and questioners turned out to be much more in alignment with league opinion than the jockers/his agent. If there's an actual meeting of the minds, if he's your guy, then it plays out like Lowry. You make a nice solid just above market offer, and boom its done. That's how it looks when you are sure you want a guy as a pillar. That's how it looked with Rudy too as we desperately pitched him to stay. But with IT not only are we waiting and waiting, but we even went so far as to sign another PG who could easily start (and reports say was promised the job), and who would be a very expensive backup that we could not afford, again unless the market for IT is so soft that he actually ends up getting paid LESS than Collison. I can't be 100% sure whether IT will be back next year, but I am quite sure that if he is its not going to be on the terms he wanted, or part of the grand plan for us.
I don't think that's necessarily the case. Most of the restricted free agents haven't received the Lowry treatment (Monroe, Bledsoe etc). I don't think the FO thinks of Thomas as an elite level cornerstone like gay or cuz but that doesn't mean they don't value him or want him back. Collison is about upgrading a position of need and the move will be incomplete without IT re- signed or another player coming in.
Melo and Lebron are holding everything up, apart from Lowry we have only seen low level players being offered contracts. Another reason is that PG depth is just huge right now in the league because of how the game is officiated, PG's, particularly ones that score are allowed to thrive much more than they would be able to in the 90's and early 00's. If you look down the list of NBA teams only an handful are in the market for a starting type PG.
Toronto -Lowry
Brooklyn- Williams
New York- Calderon(just acquired)
Boston- Rondo, Smart
Phili- MCW
Indiana- Hill
Chicago- Rose
Cleveland- Irving
Detroit- Jennings
Milwaukee- Knight
Heat- ?
Washington- Wall
Charlotte- Walker
Atlanta- Teague
Orlando- Payton, Oladipo
OKC- Westbrook
Portland- Lillard
Minnesota- Rubio
Denver- Lawson
Utah- Exum, Burke
LAC- Paul
Golden State- Curry
Phoenix- Dragic/Bledsoe
Sacramento- Collison
LAL- Nash
San Antonio- Parker
Houston- Beverly
Memphis- Conley
Dallas- Harris
New Orleans- Holiday/Evans
As you can see there are only seven teams excluding us that would conceivably be looking at upgrading PG, of those Milwaukee might be content with Knight at least for another season. New York just acquired Calderon and will hold off anything else until Melo decision. Detroit has been rumored to be involved with IT, but doesn't make sense with another scoring PG already there. Miami is waiting on their big 3, and if they all come back would only offer IT a low ball contract. The big threat are the Lakers, if Melo signs, similar to the Heat, they would only offer IT a low ball contract. However if Melo doesn't sign, they could offer IT not only a starting role(c'mon Nash is done) and bigger pay. Houston seems content with Beverly as they get their scoring from other positions. Dallas is another option, but could pass on IT with Ellis already there.
The market is there for IT as the 6th man, but you're right the market for him as a starting PG is very low(Lakers, Dallas, maybe Detroit). Once Melo and the big 3 are settled the rest of the Free Agent dominoes will fall.
Toronto -Lowry
Brooklyn- Williams
New York- Calderon(just acquired)
Boston- Rondo, Smart
Phili- MCW
Indiana- Hill
Chicago- Rose
Cleveland- Irving
Detroit- Jennings
Milwaukee- Knight
Heat- ?
Washington- Wall
Charlotte- Walker
Atlanta- Teague
Orlando- Payton, Oladipo
OKC- Westbrook
Portland- Lillard
Minnesota- Rubio
Denver- Lawson
Utah- Exum, Burke
LAC- Paul
Golden State- Curry
Phoenix- Dragic/Bledsoe
Sacramento- Collison
LAL- Nash
San Antonio- Parker
Houston- Beverly
Memphis- Conley
Dallas- Harris
New Orleans- Holiday/Evans
As you can see there are only seven teams excluding us that would conceivably be looking at upgrading PG, of those Milwaukee might be content with Knight at least for another season. New York just acquired Calderon and will hold off anything else until Melo decision. Detroit has been rumored to be involved with IT, but doesn't make sense with another scoring PG already there. Miami is waiting on their big 3, and if they all come back would only offer IT a low ball contract. The big threat are the Lakers, if Melo signs, similar to the Heat, they would only offer IT a low ball contract. However if Melo doesn't sign, they could offer IT not only a starting role(c'mon Nash is done) and bigger pay. Houston seems content with Beverly as they get their scoring from other positions. Dallas is another option, but could pass on IT with Ellis already there.
The market is there for IT as the 6th man, but you're right the market for him as a starting PG is very low(Lakers, Dallas, maybe Detroit). Once Melo and the big 3 are settled the rest of the Free Agent dominoes will fall.
I think you are ignoring the effect that Collison's contract had on our cap situation. We signed him first, to $5.3mil a season, and by so doing it grew us all the way to $71.9mil payroll + roughly $2.5mil for Stauskas, so $74.4mil, and the luxury tax threshold is $77mil. And the two guys are too small to even play together. That's not a move you make if you are planning on bringing IT back at any sort of reasonable contract. We might opportunistically take him back for near free, but we ran ourselves out of money before IT was resolved, and as a restricted free agent, we could have waited and been guaranteed his return if that was the plan.
This is our payroll situation:
Gay $19,317,326
Cousins $13,701,250
Landry $6,750,000
Williams $6,679,866
Thompson $6,037,500
Terry $5,450,000
Collison $5,300,000 (est)
McLemore $3,026,280
Outlaw $3,000,000
Stauskas $2,500,000 (est)
Evans $1,768,654
Acy $915,243
McCallum $816,482
---------------------------------
$75,262,601
est lux tax limit = $77mil (Larry Coon here: http://cbafaq.com/blog/?p=304 )
Which as they say, is kind of that. We have to twist ourselves into incredible knots to even get him back on some ultra cheap $3-$4mil deal which could not possibly have been our plan, let alone his. Getting him back for anything like market price, well his hoped for price, is nigh impossible. Both things would have been monumentally more possible before the Collison signing. Once we did that it was clear where our priorities were, and maybe even why. If IT is worth what he thinks he is worth to somebody, we could not afford him even if we wanted to bring back the same team (which PDA says he does not), and we'd be pinned trying to change things up.
This is our payroll situation:
Gay $19,317,326
Cousins $13,701,250
Landry $6,750,000
Williams $6,679,866
Thompson $6,037,500
Terry $5,450,000
Collison $5,300,000 (est)
McLemore $3,026,280
Outlaw $3,000,000
Stauskas $2,500,000 (est)
Evans $1,768,654
Acy $915,243
McCallum $816,482
---------------------------------
$75,262,601
est lux tax limit = $77mil (Larry Coon here: http://cbafaq.com/blog/?p=304 )
Which as they say, is kind of that. We have to twist ourselves into incredible knots to even get him back on some ultra cheap $3-$4mil deal which could not possibly have been our plan, let alone his. Getting him back for anything like market price, well his hoped for price, is nigh impossible. Both things would have been monumentally more possible before the Collison signing. Once we did that it was clear where our priorities were, and maybe even why. If IT is worth what he thinks he is worth to somebody, we could not afford him even if we wanted to bring back the same team (which PDA says he does not), and we'd be pinned trying to change things up.
Last edited:
Seems they made the move in anticipation of IT getting 8-10 million offered. Rumors such as Detroit forced the Kings hand (not to mention I think Collison is improving). I know I didn't think there was any way 6 million would be enough for Isaiah. Now I'd be surprised if he gets it.
Looks like Isaiah will get a whole new set of chips to pile on his shoulder.
Looks like Isaiah will get a whole new set of chips to pile on his shoulder.
Even if the Knicks lose Carmelo I don't see them going after Thomas. Phil Jackson is a triangle guru and Derek Fisher and especially Kurt Rambis were ostensibly hired in part because of their knowledge of how to install and coach the triangle offense. IT is not a Phil Jackson/triangle PG.
I don't see the fit in Detroit but then Detroit seems to be doing dumb things left and right. Josh Smith on a huge deal to play SF? Sheesh. Still, they are on the hook for $8 million plus to Jennings for the next two years. Unless they move him I can't see them also paying IT $6-7 million per let alone the rumored 3 years/$24 million
Milwaukee is about to have Antetokounmpo and Jabari Parker as its starting wings so I would imagine a combo guard like Knight is actually a decent fit. No point in a ball dominant scoring PG when Parker needs the ball in his hands and Giannis is a solid ball handler and passer.
The Heat would be intriguing but (1) I think they want shooters next to the Big 3 if they return (I expect to see Morrow sign with Miami if and when LeBron reups) and (2) unless the Big 3 are split up there's no cash as you mentioned. One other point is that the Heat's draft day trade for Shabazz Napier was clearly made to help placate LeBron who is a fan of his game and said so publicly.
The Lakers are a threat but I have a hard time seeing it. Thomas just isn't a big splash signing and thus not really the Lakers MO. I'm sure they'd like to have him on the cheap but even if they don't get Anthony I don't see them ponying up for Thomas.
Houston is pretty much out of the running. If they were to land Bosh they wouldn't have the cash and if they don't then they likely wouldn't deal Lin meaning they'd already have their two PGs.
Dallas seems to have zero interest in Thomas but I'm not quite sure why.
Still, if somebody were to make a big dollar offer to IT I think it would be a surprise, out of left field franchise anyway. We'll see.
As VF21 pointed out, the Kings can stretch Terry and pay IT around $6 million next season without exceeding the luxury threshold. It will depend on if they'd be getting Thomas back at a relative bargain because otherwise Terry's ending contract is a nice trade chip to have.
I don't see the fit in Detroit but then Detroit seems to be doing dumb things left and right. Josh Smith on a huge deal to play SF? Sheesh. Still, they are on the hook for $8 million plus to Jennings for the next two years. Unless they move him I can't see them also paying IT $6-7 million per let alone the rumored 3 years/$24 million
Milwaukee is about to have Antetokounmpo and Jabari Parker as its starting wings so I would imagine a combo guard like Knight is actually a decent fit. No point in a ball dominant scoring PG when Parker needs the ball in his hands and Giannis is a solid ball handler and passer.
The Heat would be intriguing but (1) I think they want shooters next to the Big 3 if they return (I expect to see Morrow sign with Miami if and when LeBron reups) and (2) unless the Big 3 are split up there's no cash as you mentioned. One other point is that the Heat's draft day trade for Shabazz Napier was clearly made to help placate LeBron who is a fan of his game and said so publicly.
The Lakers are a threat but I have a hard time seeing it. Thomas just isn't a big splash signing and thus not really the Lakers MO. I'm sure they'd like to have him on the cheap but even if they don't get Anthony I don't see them ponying up for Thomas.
Houston is pretty much out of the running. If they were to land Bosh they wouldn't have the cash and if they don't then they likely wouldn't deal Lin meaning they'd already have their two PGs.
Dallas seems to have zero interest in Thomas but I'm not quite sure why.
Still, if somebody were to make a big dollar offer to IT I think it would be a surprise, out of left field franchise anyway. We'll see.
As VF21 pointed out, the Kings can stretch Terry and pay IT around $6 million next season without exceeding the luxury threshold. It will depend on if they'd be getting Thomas back at a relative bargain because otherwise Terry's ending contract is a nice trade chip to have.
That's the absolute knots we'd have to be tying ourselves into even just to sign him to a deal worth less than Collison's. Destroy a prime trade asset, trim our capspace for years to come, and pin ourselves within a few pennies of the luxury tax...and if we do all that we still at absolute maximum maximum could scrape together maybe MAYBE $5mil for IT. Maybe. A few hundred thousand more and we couldn't come up with it even if we wanted to.
Which again, tells you where our minds were when we signed Collison. If we had not done that, had the extra $5.3mil, well that $5.3, the extra $1.6 or beneath the tax level, and then in absolute extremis stretching Terry, should have given us enough to cover any likely contract to IT. Not to do anything else mind you, but we could have assured his return. We didn't do that. We found a cheaper replacement that already has us pinned at the tax threshold, and now we'd have to mortgage the team just to get IT back at a pittance he clearly is not aiming for, and we could not possibly be planning for.
Which again, tells you where our minds were when we signed Collison. If we had not done that, had the extra $5.3mil, well that $5.3, the extra $1.6 or beneath the tax level, and then in absolute extremis stretching Terry, should have given us enough to cover any likely contract to IT. Not to do anything else mind you, but we could have assured his return. We didn't do that. We found a cheaper replacement that already has us pinned at the tax threshold, and now we'd have to mortgage the team just to get IT back at a pittance he clearly is not aiming for, and we could not possibly be planning for.
Which is why I cannot 1,000,000% guarantee IT won't be back. But its a long shot, and quite clearly, to everyone thinking about this clearly, this is NOT the position you put yourself in if your grand future franchise plans prominently feature Isaiah Thomas. We might, MIGHT, be able to take desperate measures to bring IT back, but only by damaging our cap and trade pieces. And even with those desperate measures, IT could easily get an offer now that we could NOT match under any reasonable plan. That's 100% clearly not what you do if he is a major feature of your future. And we did that when we signed Collison. Without the Collison signing we should have been able to guarantee IT's return, with some luck without even having to mess with our future cap or current enders. Would have pinned us against the tax, but could have been done. But now all that's left is a desperate strategy, that even at its best only works if IT does not get a major offer. So like I say, clearly not a plan you intentionally execute if keeping IT is important to you.
A side not, but going off the Iggy ordeal when we offered a contract and it was torn up because he didn't commit quickly enough, we don't even know if that contract offer to IT is still on the table.
If it is, it would go against a previous stance our FO made.
After ESPN.com reported Tuesday night that the Kings were going all-out to try to sign Iguodala away from the Nuggets, USA Today reported in the early hours of Wednesday that the Kings -- frustrated by Iguodala's unwillingness to give them a faster answer -- took the reported four-year, $52 million deal off the table.
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9...abruptly-pull-offer-free-agent-andre-iguodala
It wouldn't look good if they keep the offer on the table for a backup PG while not doing the same for an Iggy level player.
If it is, it would go against a previous stance our FO made.
After ESPN.com reported Tuesday night that the Kings were going all-out to try to sign Iguodala away from the Nuggets, USA Today reported in the early hours of Wednesday that the Kings -- frustrated by Iguodala's unwillingness to give them a faster answer -- took the reported four-year, $52 million deal off the table.
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9...abruptly-pull-offer-free-agent-andre-iguodala
It wouldn't look good if they keep the offer on the table for a backup PG while not doing the same for an Iggy level player.
Evans, Terry, Outlaw, Williams and Gay all come off the books next season. Its no guarantee Gay stays either, and if he does its probably at $12-$14 million. Giving IT $6 million is hardly a move that will ruin our cap flexibility. If we are trying to win this season and show Gay(and Cousins) that we are trying to make the playoffs, having IT as your sixth man looks promising and adds to talent depth.
The worst case scenario is that we roll with the unproven players, we suck again, Gay bolts next summer, and we are left with Cousins questioning his future in Sacramento. Kevin Love in Minni all over again. Cousins is loyal, but as we have seen stars have a 6-7 year grace period with small markets these days. This season is HUGE for our future.
The worst case scenario is that we roll with the unproven players, we suck again, Gay bolts next summer, and we are left with Cousins questioning his future in Sacramento. Kevin Love in Minni all over again. Cousins is loyal, but as we have seen stars have a 6-7 year grace period with small markets these days. This season is HUGE for our future.
I don't think we can even hit 6.
We have
$77,000,000 - $75,262,601
= $1,737399
and, if you blow up Jason Terry's ending contract:
$5,450,000, spread over 3 years, = $1,816,666 per year
so 5,450,000-1,816,666 = $3,633,333
$3,633,333 +
$1,737,399
-----------------
$5,370,732
at which point you could not even pay the janitor without going over the tax limit. You could not even sign Sim Bhullar. Hamadi NDiaye would be too expensive a luxury. And you only get there by blowing up one of your very best trade pieces to try to improve the team elsewhere.
We have
$77,000,000 - $75,262,601
= $1,737399
and, if you blow up Jason Terry's ending contract:
$5,450,000, spread over 3 years, = $1,816,666 per year
so 5,450,000-1,816,666 = $3,633,333
$3,633,333 +
$1,737,399
-----------------
$5,370,732
at which point you could not even pay the janitor without going over the tax limit. You could not even sign Sim Bhullar. Hamadi NDiaye would be too expensive a luxury. And you only get there by blowing up one of your very best trade pieces to try to improve the team elsewhere.
Last edited:
Has it been mentioned if Vivek would be willing to over the tax line for just this one season? I know we aren't the Lakers,Knicks or Brooklyn, but we also wouldn't be $40 million over the tax, it would be marginal for one season. Also we need to see what happens to the PF logjam, I find it hard to believe JT, Landry, Acy, Williams, Evans will all be here next season(although it's becoming more likely by the day). Acy, Williams are staying one because of the cheap contract, and the other because this is a huge year for him and at worst is an expiring chip. I think at least one of JT, Landry or Evans will be gone. There are still chips to be moved around(at least one would assume), we can analyze the cap situation until all the dust settles.
Of course you're also assuming that the Kings absolutely will not exceed the luxury tax.
Regardless, the point remains that without even knowing the market for Thomas the Kings FO went out and signed Collison. So I'd agree with the basic premise that the team never really intended to bring IT back.
Either that or D'Alessandro didn't have any kind of handle on what the market for Thomas would be and was way off in his assessment of what it would take to retain him. The former is understandable if there is a larger strategy in place. The latter would be poor job performace on PDA's part.
Regardless, the point remains that without even knowing the market for Thomas the Kings FO went out and signed Collison. So I'd agree with the basic premise that the team never really intended to bring IT back.
Either that or D'Alessandro didn't have any kind of handle on what the market for Thomas would be and was way off in his assessment of what it would take to retain him. The former is understandable if there is a larger strategy in place. The latter would be poor job performace on PDA's part.
I think they just went out and acquired a player that the staff wanted. Collison has been around long enough for everyone to know what he brings to the table at this point and Coach Malone didn't sound all that thrilled with Isaiah Thomas' floor management skills. Whether or not they have a contingency plan for retaining Thomas at a mid-level contract or lower we'll find out I suppose, but it seems pretty clear that they didn't value him highly enough to make re-signing him their top priority this off-season.
More than just a player they liked. When you pin yourself within $1.7mil of the luxury tax limit with a signing, that's intentional, and you mean that player to play a major role/fill a major hole, because you are out of money afterwards. I've said this multiple times before, but Collison has started 250 games in this league, and like him or not, or aware of the dubious relationship he has as a starter or not, that makes singing him, rather than IT, while pinning us up against the tax limit, a pretty good sign of our intentions.
Compare:
We want IT! We want IT! Capspace
$5,300,000 not spent on Collison
$1,700,000 extra beneath tax limit
-----------------
$7,000,000 with no extraordinary measures
in an emergency, break up Terry's contract, + $3.6mil
-----------------
$10,600,000mil
to
We are replacing IT with a cheaper/less ball intensive starter
$1,700,000 to tax limit
---------------------
$1,700,000 total to sign him without extra mesures
+ $3,600,000 emergency measures
---------------------
$5,300,000 max possible without going into tax
Compare:
We want IT! We want IT! Capspace
$5,300,000 not spent on Collison
$1,700,000 extra beneath tax limit
-----------------
$7,000,000 with no extraordinary measures
in an emergency, break up Terry's contract, + $3.6mil
-----------------
$10,600,000mil
to
We are replacing IT with a cheaper/less ball intensive starter
$1,700,000 to tax limit
---------------------
$1,700,000 total to sign him without extra mesures
+ $3,600,000 emergency measures
---------------------
$5,300,000 max possible without going into tax
If Thomas is getting offers in that 5-6 million dollar range, PDA better be on the phones for some sort of a sign and trade. That's a valuable asset at a good price.
IT at 8+ million is a tougher sell, but if Thomas gets frustrated with the market and signs an offer sheet a bit lower with a better chance at winning, the Kings can use that leverage for a trade.
IT at 8+ million is a tougher sell, but if Thomas gets frustrated with the market and signs an offer sheet a bit lower with a better chance at winning, the Kings can use that leverage for a trade.
Sure, but again that goes back to the twisting ourselves into knots bit. Then we would what? Be pinning ourselves against the cap, having to liquidate a significant ending contract/trade piece, by extending it out so we take smaller cap hits for three years, then still exceeding even that desperation move on the hopes that we could somehow win some future trades by enough to leave us merely completely capped out? With the risk if we can't find those trades we pay the tax?
And al of that basically for Darren Collison. What I think that top bit looks a bit more like is just desperate hopes for IT backers, but in essence that whole desperate scramble wouldn't be for IT, it would be for Darren Collison. We would have decided to cap ourselves out, liquidate the Terry contract, then exceed the tax limit anyway and have to win future trades...all because we just so desperately wanted to sign Darren Collison to a deal to platoon with IT? Because they are too small to play together. Seems a tad dubious.
And al of that basically for Darren Collison. What I think that top bit looks a bit more like is just desperate hopes for IT backers, but in essence that whole desperate scramble wouldn't be for IT, it would be for Darren Collison. We would have decided to cap ourselves out, liquidate the Terry contract, then exceed the tax limit anyway and have to win future trades...all because we just so desperately wanted to sign Darren Collison to a deal to platoon with IT? Because they are too small to play together. Seems a tad dubious.
- Status