I gotta disagree this. Work horse type players are nice to have you always want at least one on your squad and we do in R. Evans and Acy I see little need to go get one in the draft. His lack of size and offensive polish for a PF is very discouraging. IMO the best possible complimentary piece next to Cuz & Company is still a mobile shot blocker who can spread the floor and obviously those don't grow on trees but we still have to go get a shot blocker at the minimum.
Looking Ahead to Next Season...
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The need for D is definitely there. I think the big question in my mind is whether you can play him alongside DMC and Gay. I think in that scenario you're asking him to play PF, and there are two things I don't much like about that. One is that he's probably too small to be an effective post defender against some of the better PFs in the NBA. The other is that my favorite part of Gordon's game has been how he defends the wing, not the post. When the opponent brings their bench in, sure, I can see Gordon slotting to PF, but I think a lot of starters would eat him alive, and (for example) I'd rather see Gordon on Batum than on Aldridge. Alongside Gay, I don't now how that works. That said, he might be the best talent available. The motor is undeniable. The shooting stroke is. I'm pretty torn.
I didn't say he wasn't a good fit. I said he wasn't a perfect fit, but yes I'll go on record and say what you just described isn't a good fit either.
Your Idea of a Perfect Fit at PF (Aaron Gordon)
Plays great team defense
Plays great man defense
Hustles his tail off
Good ballhandler
Good passer
Decent rebounder
6'9"
210 lbs
My Idea of a Perfect Fit at PF
Rim protector
Good rebounder
Good post defender
Good team defender
Athletic enough to guard quicker PFs, but strong enough to hold his own against Cs
Can knock down open 15-18 foot jump shots
Hustle/energy guy who has a roleplayer's mentality
At least 6'10"
At least 230 lbs
Your Idea of a Perfect Fit at PF (Aaron Gordon)
Plays great team defense
Plays great man defense
Hustles his tail off
Good ballhandler
Good passer
Decent rebounder
6'9"
210 lbs
My Idea of a Perfect Fit at PF
Rim protector
Good rebounder
Good post defender
Good team defender
Athletic enough to guard quicker PFs, but strong enough to hold his own against Cs
Can knock down open 15-18 foot jump shots
Hustle/energy guy who has a roleplayer's mentality
At least 6'10"
At least 230 lbs
Personally, I don't support wasting our lottery pick for a PF because whichever PF that would come out of this draft will not even challenge any of our current "role player" PFs in Landry, JT, Evans, or Acy. Well that is aside from the fact that we got all those 4 in contract next season.
We got a dire need in our backcourt. 2 rookies are manning that right now. IT is a free agent. McCallum is at best a back-up right now even when his recent excellent strides. McLemore is a bench player right now. And we have no one else guaranteed at SG coming back next season.
Either we draft a backcourt player or trade down the pick for a package that would net us a veteran guard.
We got a dire need in our backcourt. 2 rookies are manning that right now. IT is a free agent. McCallum is at best a back-up right now even when his recent excellent strides. McLemore is a bench player right now. And we have no one else guaranteed at SG coming back next season.
Either we draft a backcourt player or trade down the pick for a package that would net us a veteran guard.
Physically speaking, I think a good comparison could be made with Taj Gibson, who was 214 pounds when he came out as a 24 year old out of USC. Gibson has better length (he has about 2.5" on Gordon in standing reach) but Gordon looks like he's got a better frame to put on weight. Taj actually plays more minutes than Boozer does on one of the best defenses in the league, and this next to Noah, neither of whom are particularly notable post defenders. Another good physical comparison is Josh Smith, who actually was able to put on about 15-20 pounds since being drafted out of high school. Smith has identical height and length dimensions to Gordon.
Personally, I don't know if Gordon can defend the perimeter full time. He looks a little awkward out there. He can definitely step out and challenge guards and wings from time to time, but I'm not sure I want him there regularly. My favorite part of Gordon is actually his smart help defense and his nose for the ball, both of which would be diminished by sending him out to the perimeter. He's already advanced in terms of using the "verticality" rules to defend. I've made the comparison before of a smaller Noah and I think I'll stick with that. I don't, however, see him ever being a defensive anchor, so if we do go the Gordon route its got to be Cousins picking it up or we're screwed defensively.
Personally, I don't know if Gordon can defend the perimeter full time. He looks a little awkward out there. He can definitely step out and challenge guards and wings from time to time, but I'm not sure I want him there regularly. My favorite part of Gordon is actually his smart help defense and his nose for the ball, both of which would be diminished by sending him out to the perimeter. He's already advanced in terms of using the "verticality" rules to defend. I've made the comparison before of a smaller Noah and I think I'll stick with that. I don't, however, see him ever being a defensive anchor, so if we do go the Gordon route its got to be Cousins picking it up or we're screwed defensively.
I'll be very interested to see how Gordon does at the combine. At the moment, he's my pick just in terms of availability. I don't want McDermott, Ennis, Harris, Stauskas, etc. And I cannot project anything for the international guys yet outside of Exum. So Gordon is a guy who should be there when it's our turn to pick, and he'd be the guy i'd take if Embiid, Wiggins, Parker, Randle, Vonleh, and Exum go in the top 6. That WCS decision really bummed me out.
Draft Express list's Gordon at 6'9. Blake Griffin is 6'8.5 w/o shoes. Millsap is 6'6.25 w/o shoes. Kevin love is 6'7.75 w/o shoes. David Lee is 6'7.75 w/o shoes. All numbers from draft express.
I wonder how tall Gordon is without shoes. And Gordon is still 5 months away from being 19. He MAY not be done growing. I don't know.
His reach is another well documented issue that I don't want to just brush over, but I DO think he can play PF. And I actually think Rudy Gay makes some sense as the SF next to a guy like Gordon. We've seen Gay guard certain PF's before. Dirk comes to mind. And he's one of the taller / better rebounders for his position, so I think the added size there could balance out whatever size Gordon might be giving up on SOME nights. On most nights, he'll be the same size as his opposition, if not taller.
But I don't know any of this for sure. Not until the combine, anyway. And certainly not until he proves himself as an NBA player, which could take years. But I believe in him. I believe in his defensive potential. I love how he keeps his hands straight up in the air on defense when his man gets close to the rim. His fundamentals on that end seem really sound for a player so young. And while he's not the perfect guy, he may be the Kings only option, really.
Draft Express list's Gordon at 6'9. Blake Griffin is 6'8.5 w/o shoes. Millsap is 6'6.25 w/o shoes. Kevin love is 6'7.75 w/o shoes. David Lee is 6'7.75 w/o shoes. All numbers from draft express.
I wonder how tall Gordon is without shoes. And Gordon is still 5 months away from being 19. He MAY not be done growing. I don't know.
His reach is another well documented issue that I don't want to just brush over, but I DO think he can play PF. And I actually think Rudy Gay makes some sense as the SF next to a guy like Gordon. We've seen Gay guard certain PF's before. Dirk comes to mind. And he's one of the taller / better rebounders for his position, so I think the added size there could balance out whatever size Gordon might be giving up on SOME nights. On most nights, he'll be the same size as his opposition, if not taller.
But I don't know any of this for sure. Not until the combine, anyway. And certainly not until he proves himself as an NBA player, which could take years. But I believe in him. I believe in his defensive potential. I love how he keeps his hands straight up in the air on defense when his man gets close to the rim. His fundamentals on that end seem really sound for a player so young. And while he's not the perfect guy, he may be the Kings only option, really.
how many of his top 10 are dunks? all i see him do in majority of highlights on youtube is... dunks. i don't see what you guys are seeing. what he IS, is a skinny, hyper athletic dunker. david west, aldridge, even jason thompson would have a field day banging with him down low. if i squint hard enough i could see a shawn marion PF playing for the phoenix suns when d'antoni was running the show.
C stoudemire
PF marion (AARON GORDON)
SF Joe Johnson
SG Quentin Richardson
PG Steve Nash
C stoudemire
PF marion (AARON GORDON)
SF Joe Johnson
SG Quentin Richardson
PG Steve Nash
You type this up in a very deceiving way (probably wasn't your intention) by putting Gordon's listed height next to other PFs "w/0 shoes" height. Nevertheless, that 6'9" is an unofficial number. He might be taller and he might be shorter. When the combine rolls around, we'll get a good idea of his official height and length.
I thought I did that very openly, and on purpose. Not trying to deceive anyone, really. I would have loved to have used Aaron Gordon's w/o shoe height, but we won't get that until the combine. I'm not suggesting he's actually taller than those guys, but he's probably in the ballpark. I just used what Draft Express had available.
All of that to say this, I don't expect him to be THAT undersized as a PF, if at all. Another one I forgot to mention was Faried who is only 6'6 without shoes. I would think Gordon is taller than that. Pretty good comp offensively, but Gordon is a lot further along defensively than Faried was at 18. He might be better than Faried on that end right now.
All of that to say this, I don't expect him to be THAT undersized as a PF, if at all. Another one I forgot to mention was Faried who is only 6'6 without shoes. I would think Gordon is taller than that. Pretty good comp offensively, but Gordon is a lot further along defensively than Faried was at 18. He might be better than Faried on that end right now.
I don't think we have any say (do we? 
) in determining future Kings' pick, so MK's trying to "deceive" anyone here would be pretty silly.
) in determining future Kings' pick, so MK's trying to "deceive" anyone here would be pretty silly.
we'll see with Gordon, and he's young enough he might still have grown a tad. But he looked about 6'8" SF/PF tweener sized to me last time I saw him. Bigger than Matt Barnes, smaller than Eduardo Najera.
Measurements are important, but they can really be mis-leading either for or against a player.
In Gordon's case, all you had to do was watch a lot of Arizona at the beginning of the year.
Arizona had Tarczewski playing Center, Ashley playing PF, and Gordon playing SF.
Tarczewski is a full-sized Center.
Ashley is a full-sized PF.
Gordan...he isn't even in the same weight-class as Ashley.
From a PF perspective Ashley was simply a better player than Gordon due to his better shooting/scoring and his physical stature. (Weight and length)
When the games started I had to keep reminding myself to look for the smallest front-court player to find Gordon because he was just that much smaller than Ashley and Tarczewski.
He's got a great motor and he's got good handles for his size. But he doesn't have the mass to be dominant at the PF position and I'm terrified of his FT shooting because if he can't get his shot to go he doesn't have the skill-set to play SF. (Besides the good handle)
Cauley-Stein staying another year is simply devastating. Out of all the players in the draft he might have been the one to be the absolute best fit to make this team gel and it was almost guaranteed that he'd be there when we picked...so now...it's possible we come out of the draft with someone I'm not as keen on if we end up picking 7th or 8th.
In Gordon's case, all you had to do was watch a lot of Arizona at the beginning of the year.
Arizona had Tarczewski playing Center, Ashley playing PF, and Gordon playing SF.
Tarczewski is a full-sized Center.
Ashley is a full-sized PF.
Gordan...he isn't even in the same weight-class as Ashley.
From a PF perspective Ashley was simply a better player than Gordon due to his better shooting/scoring and his physical stature. (Weight and length)
When the games started I had to keep reminding myself to look for the smallest front-court player to find Gordon because he was just that much smaller than Ashley and Tarczewski.
He's got a great motor and he's got good handles for his size. But he doesn't have the mass to be dominant at the PF position and I'm terrified of his FT shooting because if he can't get his shot to go he doesn't have the skill-set to play SF. (Besides the good handle)
Cauley-Stein staying another year is simply devastating. Out of all the players in the draft he might have been the one to be the absolute best fit to make this team gel and it was almost guaranteed that he'd be there when we picked...so now...it's possible we come out of the draft with someone I'm not as keen on if we end up picking 7th or 8th.
The issue I have with Gordon isn't necessarily his height and reach as much as it is his bulk/weight and playing style. He is not a power playing PF on offense or defense. He's not a post player, an enforcer, a weak side defender or rim protector. In short, not the things I want next to Cuz. Obviously if his height and reach are lower than expected it only adds to my perception that he's a tweener forward.
Again, just as with Randle, that doesn't mean I don't think Gordon will succeed in the NBA. It just means I don't see him as a good fit next to Cousins who is the only certain building block of this Kings team going forward.
Again, just as with Randle, that doesn't mean I don't think Gordon will succeed in the NBA. It just means I don't see him as a good fit next to Cousins who is the only certain building block of this Kings team going forward.
Instead of focusing on the draft, I'd like to focus on style of play, which might have interplay with the draft. This team needs to Run the Ball. I'm sick and tired of having a ONE PASS ISO offense, hereinafter referred to the as the OPI offense, in which the pg waits for Cousins (repeatedly) to get past the half court line to start the OPI offense (pronounced OPEE for those who haven't heard of the term).
They didn't get McLemore and McCallum to run the OPI offense. They both run, especially McLemore who runs faster than the wind except in hurricane conditions. IT can run. Thompson can even run. D-Will can run. Gay I think can run. So RUN THE FREAKING BALL. It's really not that complicated. It allows your young players to get rhythm, touches, and confidence. And, more importantly, you will win more because of it.
And I don't want to hear about how it has to be a slo-mo-Joe offense because Cousins is slow and we just have to wait patiently every-single-time-for-Cousins because he is the best player and all. Forget that. Kareem, Walton, Chamberlin and Unseld. You don't think they had running teams? It's a team game, and if you want to win, you better start running. Cousins: Get the Ball and Outlet the Freaking Ball. Watch some film of those ancient mariners like Unseld and Walton and see what a real center does. Not play point guard. Do an outlet pass. If you don't know what an outlet pass is then look up Unseld at the retirement home and get some tips. He could probably do a better outlet than you in his wheel chair. If Unseld is no longer around, Walton will be happy to give you some tips, along with some worldly wisdom. Cousins, you can pass the ball if you get your mind right. You've proven that. And you do want to win, right? I realize they don't keep stats on great outlet passes, and they do keep stats for being a point guard and running up the floor and (occassionally) making a basket or an assist (we won't talk about the TOs), and I do realize that you harbor dreams of being Magic Johnson, but if you want to win, it's time to sacrifice your point guard aspirations on the altar of winning: Become a great outlet passer instead. And Malone, you've gotten your point across on defense. You've earned the capital with Cousins. (Boy have you earned it). It's time to junk the ad hoc OPI offense and have a real offense, one that RUNS THE FREAKING BALL. Make it happen.
They didn't get McLemore and McCallum to run the OPI offense. They both run, especially McLemore who runs faster than the wind except in hurricane conditions. IT can run. Thompson can even run. D-Will can run. Gay I think can run. So RUN THE FREAKING BALL. It's really not that complicated. It allows your young players to get rhythm, touches, and confidence. And, more importantly, you will win more because of it.
And I don't want to hear about how it has to be a slo-mo-Joe offense because Cousins is slow and we just have to wait patiently every-single-time-for-Cousins because he is the best player and all. Forget that. Kareem, Walton, Chamberlin and Unseld. You don't think they had running teams? It's a team game, and if you want to win, you better start running. Cousins: Get the Ball and Outlet the Freaking Ball. Watch some film of those ancient mariners like Unseld and Walton and see what a real center does. Not play point guard. Do an outlet pass. If you don't know what an outlet pass is then look up Unseld at the retirement home and get some tips. He could probably do a better outlet than you in his wheel chair. If Unseld is no longer around, Walton will be happy to give you some tips, along with some worldly wisdom. Cousins, you can pass the ball if you get your mind right. You've proven that. And you do want to win, right? I realize they don't keep stats on great outlet passes, and they do keep stats for being a point guard and running up the floor and (occassionally) making a basket or an assist (we won't talk about the TOs), and I do realize that you harbor dreams of being Magic Johnson, but if you want to win, it's time to sacrifice your point guard aspirations on the altar of winning: Become a great outlet passer instead. And Malone, you've gotten your point across on defense. You've earned the capital with Cousins. (Boy have you earned it). It's time to junk the ad hoc OPI offense and have a real offense, one that RUNS THE FREAKING BALL. Make it happen.
I think it's a fair point that the offensive scheme could use some improvement, and that although Cousins and Gay (if he's back) may necessarily be iso-heavy players to some extent, more ball movement would certainly be a good thing. (In my dream scenario, Vivek and Malone reach out to Adelman to serve as a part time consultant to develop an offensive scheme)
That said, a run and gun offense is not necessary to improve the ball movement, and possibly a poor fit with the personnel.
That said, a run and gun offense is not necessary to improve the ball movement, and possibly a poor fit with the personnel.
The side of the ball you want to emphasize is not the side that needs the most work.
Our two stars are built for ISO play. It's easier to fit complementary pieces like McCallum and McLemore into a halfcourt offense than to try and square peg Gay and Cousins. I'd wager that they'll do better in a half court set anyway, as McLemore's athleticism will get him open looks from A DMC kickout and McCallum makes the smart safe pass, which is what you want in the half court anyway. Am I missing something?
Our two stars are built for ISO play. It's easier to fit complementary pieces like McCallum and McLemore into a halfcourt offense than to try and square peg Gay and Cousins. I'd wager that they'll do better in a half court set anyway, as McLemore's athleticism will get him open looks from A DMC kickout and McCallum makes the smart safe pass, which is what you want in the half court anyway. Am I missing something?
indeed. as a philosophy, "run the ball" is hardly the equivalent of "share the ball." you can certainly rack up a greater number of assists in open court situations, but it does nothing to teach a team how to effectively move the ball in a half court set. and when your franchise cornerstone is demarcus cousins, it's probably in your best interests as a team to consider how to improve ball movement in those half court sets. demarcus can certainly get out on the break from time to time, but i rather strenuously reject the notion that the kings should attempt a "run and gun" style of play...
i mean, big cuz is only just starting to develop some level of consistency with respect to getting back in transition defense. it'd be a shame to sink that progress by asking him to hoof it out there on offense every time down the court. he's more mobile than just about any basketball player in the world of his size, but he's still 6'11", 270 lbs. for reference's sake, he's about 50 lbs heavier than jabbar was in his prime, and about 60 lbs heavier than walton was in his prime. that's a whole lotta man to move up-and-down the court in a fast-paced offense, and it's certainly not playing to his strengths as a power center...
could the kings stand to run more? sure. demarcus is actually a pretty solid quarterback; he throws a helluvan outlet pass when given the opportunity. but as a team philosophy? ask pau gasol how much he's enjoyed playing in mike d'antoni's run and gun system. i seriously doubt he'd recommend it to a center like demarcus cousins...
i mean, big cuz is only just starting to develop some level of consistency with respect to getting back in transition defense. it'd be a shame to sink that progress by asking him to hoof it out there on offense every time down the court. he's more mobile than just about any basketball player in the world of his size, but he's still 6'11", 270 lbs. for reference's sake, he's about 50 lbs heavier than jabbar was in his prime, and about 60 lbs heavier than walton was in his prime. that's a whole lotta man to move up-and-down the court in a fast-paced offense, and it's certainly not playing to his strengths as a power center...
could the kings stand to run more? sure. demarcus is actually a pretty solid quarterback; he throws a helluvan outlet pass when given the opportunity. but as a team philosophy? ask pau gasol how much he's enjoyed playing in mike d'antoni's run and gun system. i seriously doubt he'd recommend it to a center like demarcus cousins...
The side of the ball you want to emphasize is not the side that needs the most work.
Our two stars are built for ISO play. It's easier to fit complementary pieces like McCallum and McLemore into a halfcourt offense than to try and square peg Gay and Cousins. I'd wager that they'll do better in a half court set anyway, as McLemore's athleticism will get him open looks from A DMC kickout and McCallum makes the smart safe pass, which is what you want in the half court anyway. Am I missing something?
Our two stars are built for ISO play. It's easier to fit complementary pieces like McCallum and McLemore into a halfcourt offense than to try and square peg Gay and Cousins. I'd wager that they'll do better in a half court set anyway, as McLemore's athleticism will get him open looks from A DMC kickout and McCallum makes the smart safe pass, which is what you want in the half court anyway. Am I missing something?
Why re-work a team that is built for one style of play to suit, well, to suit what? We are on the right path the way we are.
I just don't think posting up is his strength, and I don't think he should be drafted as a post player. I think he's more comfortable spotting up on the perimeter, and he should be drafted by a team who lets him do that. I wouldn't be surprised if he turned the ball over too much in part because of how much Indiana made him play in the paint. I did say he was a good post defender. Teams won't be able to take advantage of him unless they have a good post up player.
I'm critical of Vonleh with regard to his off the ball defense and especially his pick and roll defense. I watch him, and I don't see a guy who is confident that he's in the right spot on the floor to limit the other team's offense as much as possible. I don't even know if that goes through his mind. We can only hope that it's because he's 19 or that it's because Indiana didn't talk enough on defense. We also can only hope that he has the desire and cognitive ability to become better.
Vonleh straight up doesn't guard pick and rolls or screens. He gives up open jumpers or lets players get a head of steam. He makes it look like he doesn't have the lateral quickness to guard pick and rolls, which is worrying.
I'm critical of Vonleh with regard to his off the ball defense and especially his pick and roll defense. I watch him, and I don't see a guy who is confident that he's in the right spot on the floor to limit the other team's offense as much as possible. I don't even know if that goes through his mind. We can only hope that it's because he's 19 or that it's because Indiana didn't talk enough on defense. We also can only hope that he has the desire and cognitive ability to become better.
Vonleh straight up doesn't guard pick and rolls or screens. He gives up open jumpers or lets players get a head of steam. He makes it look like he doesn't have the lateral quickness to guard pick and rolls, which is worrying.
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I doubt very much that we will have an iso based offense if the team stays relatively stable and has a preseason where actual plays can be installed. I sure hope not, anyway. This has not been the kind of season where an organized offense could get installed when major and minor pieces to the puzzle called a team changes every few months,