Greivis Vasquez triple double 2/8/13 highlights
- Thread starter Tmassfan4life
- Start date
I don't understand this system talk. Vasquez is the PG and had control of the ball. You have to run his style of game. If you use that same NO team and put IT at the point, the style will change because the person handling the ball the majority of the time will dictate that. The only time when a PG doesn't dictate the style of play is when you have a ball dominant superstar. Lebron, Kobe, Melo. So what are we debating? Whether he will have 7 or 9 assists per game? What we should be debating is whether the style of Vasquez will get the most out of the players we have on the team.
I hope we don't see the Nelly, Keith Smart style of matchup play with IT and Vasquez. Put your best 5 out there every nigh the majority of the minutes. If IT is coming off the bench, he will be a change of pace guy.
I hope we don't see the Nelly, Keith Smart style of matchup play with IT and Vasquez. Put your best 5 out there every nigh the majority of the minutes. If IT is coming off the bench, he will be a change of pace guy.
They run a PG centric offense where the PG is generally the only player on the floor who can create at any given time. They don't play through bigs, although they might post their main big up every so often and they don't have a ball dominant wing who can create his own off the dribble or needs the ball to succeed. Their PG is usually the only ball dominant player on the floor and it's been this way for years. Pick & roll, spread offense, where there's one creator, one guy dominating the ball and one guy charged with the creation of shots for others.
Ast% tends to back this assertion. NO PG's regularly are near the top of the league in % of their team's assists.
In 2010 it was CP3 with an Ast% of 45.8%
In 2011 it was basically a Vasquez/Jack combo as the PG's and they both were in the top 16 with Ast%'s of 35.7%/34% respectively
In 2012 it was Vasquez with an Ast % of 44.9%
But really, in just watching them you see the PG is the creator, handles the ball for the large majority of every possession, surrounded by guys who can't and don't create their own shots. And some will compare those %'s to that of others at or near the top, but a difference is does the high Ast% lead to your team being near the top of the league in assists, are you a top passing team because of it, or are you an average to poor team(when it comes to assists) and your PG just happens to get the majority of those assists. NO ranked 21, 16 and 23 in the league in 2010/11/12, where as a team like Boston with Rondo who also has a very high Ast% is ranked near the top in team assists(aside from when he was out injured). Bos also runs a PG centric offense but not to the extent of NO as they have other players they play through, be it Pierce in iso's or KG, a top passing big. With CP3 in 2010 NO was ranked 21, with LAC last year they were ranked 4. CP3's assist numbers haven't changed much, but a much larger portion of his team's assists came in 2010 with NO due to the system. The PG is the creator.
Point of all this is that while Vasquez does have good vision, his assists are inflated by NO's system, and here when we'll have Cuz who will be a focus and we'll play through much of the time, Vasquez won't get the same time on the ball, as many opportunities as he's had and his assist numbers will naturally decline. And if he's at 6-7 APG, without much of a scoring/penetration threat, how great is that really? It's a role player, through and through, and I personally would have rather kept the star talent who also could give you 6-7 APG(w/ a guy like MLM next to him and a better system) but also would give you the to the rim game along with penetration/shifting of the defense.
Ast% tends to back this assertion. NO PG's regularly are near the top of the league in % of their team's assists.
In 2010 it was CP3 with an Ast% of 45.8%
In 2011 it was basically a Vasquez/Jack combo as the PG's and they both were in the top 16 with Ast%'s of 35.7%/34% respectively
In 2012 it was Vasquez with an Ast % of 44.9%
But really, in just watching them you see the PG is the creator, handles the ball for the large majority of every possession, surrounded by guys who can't and don't create their own shots. And some will compare those %'s to that of others at or near the top, but a difference is does the high Ast% lead to your team being near the top of the league in assists, are you a top passing team because of it, or are you an average to poor team(when it comes to assists) and your PG just happens to get the majority of those assists. NO ranked 21, 16 and 23 in the league in 2010/11/12, where as a team like Boston with Rondo who also has a very high Ast% is ranked near the top in team assists(aside from when he was out injured). Bos also runs a PG centric offense but not to the extent of NO as they have other players they play through, be it Pierce in iso's or KG, a top passing big. With CP3 in 2010 NO was ranked 21, with LAC last year they were ranked 4. CP3's assist numbers haven't changed much, but a much larger portion of his team's assists came in 2010 with NO due to the system. The PG is the creator.
Point of all this is that while Vasquez does have good vision, his assists are inflated by NO's system, and here when we'll have Cuz who will be a focus and we'll play through much of the time, Vasquez won't get the same time on the ball, as many opportunities as he's had and his assist numbers will naturally decline. And if he's at 6-7 APG, without much of a scoring/penetration threat, how great is that really? It's a role player, through and through, and I personally would have rather kept the star talent who also could give you 6-7 APG(w/ a guy like MLM next to him and a better system) but also would give you the to the rim game along with penetration/shifting of the defense.
Last edited:
My problem with that is I HATE the Landry signing. I hate his game. He's a black hole, he never passes the ball once he gets it. He's undersized and is a bad defender. Not a good rebounder. Doesn't fit next to Cuz. He's not worthless or anything, he's a solid player in the right system, but I hate him for us. At least he's a good vet with the right attitude.
I'd have preferred to keep the cap space.
As a Vasquez fan, I don't care about his assist number if he can be one of the winning factors of the team.
If he only gets 6-7 assist but plays more efficiently due to the team has more talent, it is not bad at all.
Also, remember that more talent on the team will make up some of the assists he lost due to the lower usage.
So it is not clear if his assist number will decrease, and by how many.
If he only gets 6-7 assist but plays more efficiently due to the team has more talent, it is not bad at all.
Also, remember that more talent on the team will make up some of the assists he lost due to the lower usage.
So it is not clear if his assist number will decrease, and by how many.
Are you assuming what our offense is going to look like this year or are you extrapolating from the Warriors offense from the previous two seasons? Golden State runs a 'PG-centric' system too (Curry and Jack accounting for more than half of the team assists last year, and their 4 guards accounting for over 80 percent of the team assists in the previous season). I hear you on Vazquez driving ability being subpar, but is that a big loss? It didn't win us many close games because the defense stacks the lane, and lane driving promotes 1 on 1 basketball (although I give Tyreke tons of credit, because he really improved his passing in the lane over the past couple of years). If you think Tyreke can get to a Dwyane Wade level, then I see why you are upset with the swap .... I'm genuinely curious how you know the offensive scheme of the Kings, has Malone hinted at it somewhere? Might get a peak with Summer League today.
It's probably an assumption due to Cuz being our best player and the team being built around him. You don't do that if you're not going to give him the ball a lot of the time and let the offense run through him. GSW had no one they could do that with, and it didn't suit them to do that either since Curry is their best player, and best when creating for himself and others.
similar problem as with Vasquez, completely different circumstances. the lineup he played the most minutes with was Jack/Curry/Thompson/Lee/Landry. that is shooting at a historic level, making sure that the zone is completely unclogged, so he can do his thing without any interference. even David Lee shot 42% from 16-24 feet (DMC, in comparison, was at a paltry 33% from that range). without the benefit of that kind of shooting -and right now we're projecting to be somewhat miserable in that regard, save for a real magic trade- he's going to look quite a bit different, one might actually say similar to the player he was before this one year outlier.
That makes a ton of sense if Landry was far better this past season than he was during the rest of his career. That wasn't the case however... his pp36 was down a bit from a career avg of 17.4 to 16.8 last year. True his ts% was .605 which is better than his career .596 mark but not a huge outlier by any stretch. His PER last year was 17.5 compared to a career number of 17.7... with Landry I think we signed a guy who we know what we'll get from.
Ok, they were on the court 591 minutes together that year.... out of a total of 1406 that Landry played with the Kings. He was also playing with guys like Tyreke, Udrih, Casspi, Greene, Dalembert, etc. This is a completely different roster than it was then... give the f.o. a little credit here, they are professionals and understand the nba.
how do you tell the stat tool to filter for specific lineup combinations? the only sorta big minutes combination of the two looks godawful on defense, at any rate and not all that hot offensively either. as far as the roster goes, how much have we really improved since then? the roster from the 2nd half of the season, once Landry was gone, was by far the best we've had in ages (too bad Petrie **** all over that in the offseason).
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/landrca01/lineups/2011/
Just click on "lineups" to get the relevant info.
Just click on "lineups" to get the relevant info.
I'm using common sense. We have one of the most talented bigs in the league. We have PDA on record as saying Cuz is a top talent. We have PDA on record saying we'll build around Cuz. Vasquez and NO over the past few years haven't had a big who they can play through near the extent of a guy like Cuz. It wasn't an option. I still expect Vasquez to handle a fair amount but he won't be the only option to create as he was in NO.
It's about options. Vasquez didn't have the option to dump the ball into a big, he had to handle the majority of each possession. That dynamic will change here and his opportunities will decline because of it. There's no reason to assume Cuz would get fewer touches than Anderson/Davis got last year with Vasquez. He'll get many more.
And while GS does have a PG centric system, it still is nowhere near the extent of NO's. Steph had a 31.1 Ast%. Vasquez had a 44.9 Ast%.
It's about options. Vasquez didn't have the option to dump the ball into a big, he had to handle the majority of each possession. That dynamic will change here and his opportunities will decline because of it. There's no reason to assume Cuz would get fewer touches than Anderson/Davis got last year with Vasquez. He'll get many more.
And while GS does have a PG centric system, it still is nowhere near the extent of NO's. Steph had a 31.1 Ast%. Vasquez had a 44.9 Ast%.
Your analysis was interesting for me. It will be a change for Vasquez here with Cousins but your analysis assures me of one thing - Vasquez is a proven, competent distributor - a luxury the Kings haven't had for long time and just what I'm looking . I'm sorry this change doesn't please many folks but I think we will be just fine.
evans was a hard guy to plan an offense around. I' looking forward to all the new avenues that open up for Cousins and our new team.
evans was a hard guy to plan an offense around. I' looking forward to all the new avenues that open up for Cousins and our new team.