Ziller: Time for Kings to consider life after Cousins

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Not all leaks are venomous. Some are born of naivety. Judging from the reaction, it wouldn't seem to be any of the core guys who leaked. Players wanted to vent and Cousins set the table for it. (Lack of style points noted.)
The Karl wanting to suspend Boogie stuff came from a different place however. Of course Karl and his little crony coaching brigade are a constant security threat in and of themselves, but otherwise you are talking somebody immediately on the scene, and not working in Vlade's or Boogie's interests. Hopefully Vlade's Serbian political experience has taught him a few Eastern European mobster moves, and he leaves the culprit strung up by his/her entrails on a pike out front of Sleep Train.
 
If Cousins had JUST ONCE had decent players around him we wouldn't be having this conversation. Just look at the craptitude he's been forced to deal with. Look at the Kings rosters over the past few years. Take a few minutes and really study those names. Guys who STARTED for us are now out of the league, flipping burgers somewhere or trying to live out their dreams playing overseas.
The Pizza Man has been great for the Celtics, he will probably win 6th man of the year this season. Rudy Gay is also a decent player that Cousins has played with.
 
The Pizza Man has been great for the Celtics, he will probably win 6th man of the year this season. Rudy Gay is also a decent player that Cousins has played with.
Prior to the last season and a half, here are the BEST players cuz has played with in over 5 years:

Isaiah Thomas
Tyreke Evans
Marcus Thornton
Sam Dalembert
Jason Thompson
Beno Udrih
Patrick Patterson
Carl Landry
John Salmons
Francisco Garcia

Let that sink in for a moment and then think about all the other rotational guys that weren't "good" enough to make that list.
 
If we were talking about an improved version of last year's DMC, I'd say hell no. But he's totally moving away from his strengths, which just so happened to make his bonehead decisions forgivable. Now that he's moving away from the basket, that value is lost and he still has pee-poor basketball IQ.
 
If we were talking about an improved version of last year's DMC, I'd say hell no. But he's totally moving away from his strengths, which just so happened to make his bonehead decisions forgivable. Now that he's moving away from the basket, that value is lost and he still has pee-poor basketball IQ.
I don't see Demarcus moving away from his strengths. I see him developing new weapons that will make him that much more dangerous.
 
If we were talking about an improved version of last year's DMC, I'd say hell no. But he's totally moving away from his strengths, which just so happened to make his bonehead decisions forgivable. Now that he's moving away from the basket, that value is lost and he still has pee-poor basketball IQ.
Wow it's actually kind of impressive to get something this wrong.
 
Prior to the last season and a half, here are the BEST players cuz has played with in over 5 years:

Isaiah Thomas
Tyreke Evans
Marcus Thornton
Sam Dalembert
Jason Thompson
Beno Udrih
Patrick Patterson
Carl Landry
John Salmons
Francisco Garcia

Let that sink in for a moment and then think about all the other rotational guys that weren't "good" enough to make that list.
But Brick said Tyreke was a once in a lifetime player
 

Mr. S£im Citrus

Doryphore of KingsFans.com
Staff member
Prior to the last season and a half, here are the BEST players cuz has played with in over 5 years:

Isaiah Thomas
Tyreke Evans
Marcus Thornton
Sam Dalembert
Jason Thompson
Beno Udrih
Patrick Patterson
Carl Landry
John Salmons
Francisco Garcia

Let that sink in for a moment and then think about all the other rotational guys that weren't "good" enough to make that list.
Eh, if you were trying to make the argument that Cousins hasn't won thirty games because of the quality of his teammates, you probably would have been better off starting with the guys who couldn't play...
 
I don't think Cousins should be traded, for reasons stated by many of you here. He needs to win, he's fed up with losing. His behavior is directly related to wins and losses. Whether that's due to a lack of maturity or what is unknown, but he is just on a different mental level when's he playing well and we are winning.

To those (reporters and fans alike) that are calling for a trade, I give you this example. Look at Anthony Davis. He isn't winning any games because for the first time, his roster looks like what Cousins has had to work with since he entered the league. You just can't win alone in this league, unless you are LeBron.
 
I don't think Cousins should be traded, for reasons stated by many of you here. He needs to win, he's fed up with losing. His behavior is directly related to wins and losses. Whether that's due to a lack of maturity or what is unknown, but he is just on a different mental level when's he playing well and we are winning.

To those (reporters and fans alike) that are calling for a trade, I give you this example. Look at Anthony Davis. He isn't winning any games because for the first time, his roster looks like what Cousins has had to work with since he entered the league. You just can't win alone in this league, unless you are LeBron.
Not even if you are Lebron.
 
Cousins has been here for SIX years with different combinations of players, coaches and a variety of game plans. What has been the result? No playoffs, his bad attitude still remains, and the continuing chant of "I see promise and improvement for next year", etc. At some point you have to cut the line and move on.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Cousins has been here for SIX years with different combinations of players, coaches and a variety of game plans. What has been the result? No playoffs, his bad attitude still remains, and the continuing chant of "I see promise and improvement for next year", etc. At some point you have to cut the line and move on.
Cousins has ridden through the ****iest phase of any ****ty franchise in the NBA for the past 6 years. He's done his part. You know what the Kings record has been the past 3 years without him? 6-32. .158 win%. You know what our record has been with Cousins on the floor over those 3 years? 54-82 .397 Win%. One single player has been worth .239 win%. I would actually be mildly surprised if there is any bigger number i the league by any of its stars. Put into games, we have been a 13-69 team the past 3 years without him, and a 33-49 team the past 3 years with him. He's made us 20 games better a year.

But yes, probably its time to cut the cord because Big Cuz hasn't been doing enough.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
Cousins has been here for SIX years with different combinations of players, coaches and a variety of game plans. What has been the result? No playoffs, his bad attitude still remains, and the continuing chant of "I see promise and improvement for next year", etc. At some point you have to cut the line and move on.
LOL. You know things are improving when the trolls start to return, much like the buzzards to Hinckley, Ohio.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
Cousins has been here for SIX years with different combinations of players, coaches and a variety of game plans. What has been the result? No playoffs, his bad attitude still remains, and the continuing chant of "I see promise and improvement for next year", etc. At some point you have to cut the line and move on.
Probably should have waited to post this some time other than after the dude put together one of the most dominant halves of basketball in franchise history.
 
Wow it's actually kind of impressive to get something this wrong.
You're obviously delusional.
So, are you asserting that Cousins is getting his counterparts in equal or more foul trouble this season compared to last? Are you asserting that opposing teams are getting into the penalty as much, or more than last season? Are you arguing that DMC is getting as many, or more and-1s with this play style?

I'm not saying DMC isn't productive. He is. What I'm saying is that there is more to the game of basketball than putting the ball in the hoop. If he shoots more 3's, yeah he still might put up points (and literally everybody else's job should be that), but it also removes him from being able to take rebounds away from the opposition. If he faces up more, yes he can dribble drive on his man. However, DMC on the dribble drive can result in more TO's/offensive fouls/missed shots overall vs a traditional post-up scenario. Additionally, he won't be facing as many double-teams off a dribble drive as he would on the block, meaning there are more openings for cutters and that outside shooting the team added in the off-season. It isn't just about DMC being effective, it is about HOW he is being effective and how that effects the rest of the team.

The kings are not a great shooting team. Rondo is Rondo, BMac and Gay are inconsistent from deep. Yes they got Casspi and Marco, but outside those guys the deep threat is more of a warning. Opposing teams, most of them, are superior in that regard. So what does this mean? It means that the kings should play to their strengths instead of competing in areas that they come up short most nights. It means that playing smash-mouth inside ball gets frontline defenders in foul trouble, messing with lineups. It means getting teams in the penalty and slowing the pace to negate any 3 point advantage they may have. It means more and-1s or double teams to get more than 2 points on a FG. That's the kind of team that competes MORE OFTEN, night in and night out, than one that relies upon a P&R, face up game from the most dominant inside force in the league.
 
Cousins has been here for SIX years with different combinations of players, coaches and a variety of game plans. What has been the result? No playoffs, his bad attitude still remains, and the continuing chant of "I see promise and improvement for next year", etc. At some point you have to cut the line and move on.
you've managed to pinpoint the root of the problem on your own, but you were miraculously unable to identify it upon writing it down. in six years' time, demarcus cousins has been immersed in a culture of upheaval and instability. continuity matters. chemistry matters. identity matters. coaches and teammates matter. kings fans should know this better than most, given the make-up of the golden era team that we recall so fondly. from the top down, there was a synergy and a vision and a cohesion within the franchise that allowed it to succeed at that moment in its history. for example, chris webber's notoriously poor attitude improved when he was traded into a stable environment, was surrounded by teammates who complemented his skill set, and was coached by individuals seeking to maximize his superstar-level talent. team culture is important, and a toxic environment breeds toxic attitudes. plain and simple...

across the last decade in sacramento, it's been a revolving door of all the wrong pieces who don't fit together in any of the right places, from ownership to the front office to the coaching staff to the player personnel. and to discount the importance of a coherent vision is to misunderstand the very nature of team sport. it requires a concerted effort at all levels of the organization. demarcus cousins is one player on a roster of 15. he's certainly the most important player on that roster, but he's done his part; he has developed into one of the league's premier superstars. does he have more work to do, particularly with respect to controlling his emotions? of course. but he's 25, and hasn't even hit his ceiling yet. he's only just entered his prime. how much more should he have to shoulder in pursuit of victory? do some of you honestly believe that an attitude adjustment on the part of cousins--necessary though it might be--will catapult this team from the basement into the playoffs? or are there other forces at work holding this team back? at what point does the franchise get held accountable for its endless parade of idiocy, chaos, and culture of instability?
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
So, are you asserting that Cousins is getting his counterparts in equal or more foul trouble this season compared to last? Are you asserting that opposing teams are getting into the penalty as much, or more than last season? Are you arguing that DMC is getting as many, or more and-1s with this play style?

I'm not saying DMC isn't productive. He is. What I'm saying is that there is more to the game of basketball than putting the ball in the hoop. If he shoots more 3's, yeah he still might put up points (and literally everybody else's job should be that), but it also removes him from being able to take rebounds away from the opposition. If he faces up more, yes he can dribble drive on his man. However, DMC on the dribble drive can result in more TO's/offensive fouls/missed shots overall vs a traditional post-up scenario. Additionally, he won't be facing as many double-teams off a dribble drive as he would on the block, meaning there are more openings for cutters and that outside shooting the team added in the off-season. It isn't just about DMC being effective, it is about HOW he is being effective and how that effects the rest of the team.

The kings are not a great shooting team. Rondo is Rondo, BMac and Gay are inconsistent from deep. Yes they got Casspi and Marco, but outside those guys the deep threat is more of a warning. Opposing teams, most of them, are superior in that regard. So what does this mean? It means that the kings should play to their strengths instead of competing in areas that they come up short most nights. It means that playing smash-mouth inside ball gets frontline defenders in foul trouble, messing with lineups. It means getting teams in the penalty and slowing the pace to negate any 3 point advantage they may have. It means more and-1s or double teams to get more than 2 points on a FG. That's the kind of team that competes MORE OFTEN, night in and night out, than one that relies upon a P&R, face up game from the most dominant inside force in the league.
I think my friend Tetsujin says it best:

Probably should have waited to post this some time other than after the dude put together one of the most dominant halves of basketball in franchise history.
 
I think my friend Tetsujin says it best:
So happy to hear how select games mean more than a season. Where do we pick up our championship shirts?

EDIT: and how do you think he put together that great performance? Much of it was his work on the block and on second chance points. It was a tale of two halves, so thanks for making my point for me.
 

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
So happy to hear how select games mean more than a season. Where do we pick up our championship shirts?

EDIT: and how do you think he put together that great performance? Much of it was his work on the block and on second chance points.
Please don't take it personally when I don't respond any further to your posts. Have a nice day.
 
Please don't take it personally when I don't respond any further to your posts. Have a nice day.
No worries, I totally understand when people cannot refute facts. DMC had a great balance of shots in the second half, with a lot of work pinning his man and getting good position for the entry pass on the block, mixed with select dribble drives and 17 footers. That's the best DMC from last season: balanced, effective, and giving little options for defenses who basically have to pick how to get burned. What isn't the best DMC is the guy who settles for outside shots, attempts to force dribble drives, and totally neglects the block. That's the guy we saw at the beginning of the season, and that's not his best incarnation. Now, if you agree with that, then you understand my viewpoint. If you disagree with that, well, then we can leave it at that.

http://espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=400828024

 
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No worries, I totally understand when people cannot refute facts. DMC had a great balance of shots in the second half, with a lot of work pinning his man and getting good position for the entry pass on the block, mixed with select dribble drives and 17 footers. That's the best DMC from last season: balanced, effective, and giving little options for defenses who basically have to pick how to get burned. What isn't the best DMC is the guy who settles for outside shots, attempts to force dribble drives, and totally neglects the block. That's the guy we saw at the beginning of the season, and that's not his best incarnation. Now, if you agree with that, then you understand my viewpoint. If you disagree with that, well, then we can leave it at that.

Actually, I have to disagree with you on his play from one half to another. I think he played each half pretty much the same way, the only difference is after half he came out on a mission. He still took 2 three pointers, 3-4 long jumpshots, and drove to the hoop with purpose, whereas in the first half he was putting minimal effort and just getting stuffed in the paint. In the 2nd half, his shots just fell and he put forth a huge effort. That was the difference, not much in regards to the game plan itself.
 
So, are you asserting that Cousins is getting his counterparts in equal or more foul trouble this season compared to last? Are you asserting that opposing teams are getting into the penalty as much, or more than last season? Are you arguing that DMC is getting as many, or more and-1s with this play style?

I'm not saying DMC isn't productive. He is. What I'm saying is that there is more to the game of basketball than putting the ball in the hoop. If he shoots more 3's, yeah he still might put up points (and literally everybody else's job should be that), but it also removes him from being able to take rebounds away from the opposition. If he faces up more, yes he can dribble drive on his man. However, DMC on the dribble drive can result in more TO's/offensive fouls/missed shots overall vs a traditional post-up scenario. Additionally, he won't be facing as many double-teams off a dribble drive as he would on the block, meaning there are more openings for cutters and that outside shooting the team added in the off-season. It isn't just about DMC being effective, it is about HOW he is being effective and how that effects the rest of the team.

The kings are not a great shooting team. Rondo is Rondo, BMac and Gay are inconsistent from deep. Yes they got Casspi and Marco, but outside those guys the deep threat is more of a warning. Opposing teams, most of them, are superior in that regard. So what does this mean? It means that the kings should play to their strengths instead of competing in areas that they come up short most nights. It means that playing smash-mouth inside ball gets frontline defenders in foul trouble, messing with lineups. It means getting teams in the penalty and slowing the pace to negate any 3 point advantage they may have. It means more and-1s or double teams to get more than 2 points on a FG. That's the kind of team that competes MORE OFTEN, night in and night out, than one that relies upon a P&R, face up game from the most dominant inside force in the league.
I didn't read this post, but I should have clarified that I was talking about the last line where you said Boogie has a low bball IQ. His feel for the game and IQ is great, decision making can be bad at times. They're not the same thing. Decision making can be improved through better teammates, culture and coaching. Bball IQ cannot be.
 
No worries, I totally understand when people cannot refute facts. DMC had a great balance of shots in the second half, with a lot of work pinning his man and getting good position for the entry pass on the block, mixed with select dribble drives and 17 footers. That's the best DMC from last season: balanced, effective, and giving little options for defenses who basically have to pick how to get burned. What isn't the best DMC is the guy who settles for outside shots, attempts to force dribble drives, and totally neglects the block. That's the guy we saw at the beginning of the season, and that's not his best incarnation. Now, if you agree with that, then you understand my viewpoint. If you disagree with that, well, then we can leave it at that.

http://espn.go.com/nba/shotchart?gameId=400828024

Actually, Cousins spent most of the first half in the post and went 1-10 from the field. In the third quarter he got his game going on the perimeter, which in turn opened things for him inside again. Of course, he still did a large portion of his damage inside by driving to the basket.
 
I didn't read this post, but I should have clarified that I was talking about the last line where you said Boogie has a low bball IQ. His feel for the game and IQ is great, decision making can be bad at times. They're not the same thing. Decision making can be improved through better teammates, culture and coaching. Bball IQ cannot be.
I will have to disagree here. Decision making, i.e. what to do, when to do it, how to do it, is all part of IQ. Analyzing what the opponent is doing, what your team is doing, the situation (game, quarter, shot clock, etc), and making the best decisions and anticipating accordingly is what it is all about.
 
Actually, Cousins spent most of the first half in the post and went 1-10 from the field. In the third quarter he got his game going on the perimeter, which in turn opened things for him inside again. Of course, he still did a large portion of his damage inside by driving to the basket.
During the first half I was praying he would post up and make some moves on the block. He's owned Brook before, in tremendous fashion, but he just didn't attack that way. I totally agree that knocking down the outside jumper opened things up, but I'm not saying he should never shoot. I'm saying that his outside shot should be used to open things up for him instead of it being a staple of his game that he relies upon to generate production. I do not want the see the DMC who average 4~5 3's a game. I want to see the DMC that fires a wide open 3 when his man leaves him space, rather than walking up the court, getting a pass from Rondo and then firing off a quick 3 with 16 on the clock.