Zach Collins

Suicide King

Suicide King

Starter
#31
#31
@206Fan

I understand where your coming from. Having never boxed out in an NBA game, I can't answer your question. It seems fundamental doesn't it? I mean boxing out should be a given for every basketball player.
I know the general trend with a lot of NBA fans now is this: players are finished products younger and younger. I disagree with that notion. I don't know why Willie doesn't box out, but I bet he can.
It seems it's one thing after another regarding expectations with Willie who has two NBA seasons under his belt under two different coaches.
Unless we figure out where Kawhi was built, we are looking at imperfect players moving forward. I still don't think Willie is done evolving and finding who he is going to be in the NBA.
There are a ton of other teams that would love to get Willie with good reason.
I am not saying he is perfect or trying to change minds, but we as a franchise tend to undervalue good players if they happen to play for us. Until they don't play for us anymore.
 
Kingsfan23

Kingsfan23

All-Star
#32
#32
Suicide King said:
@206Fan

I understand where your coming from. Having never boxed out in an NBA game, I can't answer your question. It seems fundamental doesn't it? I mean boxing out should be a given for every basketball player.
I know the general trend with a lot of NBA fans now is this: players are finished products younger and younger. I disagree with that notion. I don't know why Willie doesn't box out, but I bet he can.
It seems it's one thing after another regarding expectations with Willie who has two NBA seasons under his belt under two different coaches.
Unless we figure out where Kawhi was built, we are looking at imperfect players moving forward. I still don't think Willie is done evolving and finding who he is going to be in the NBA.
There are a ton of other teams that would love to get Willie with good reason.
I am not saying he is perfect or trying to change minds, but we as a franchise tend to undervalue good players if they happen to play for us. Until they don't play for us anymore.
Click to expand...
It's a couple things with WCS. He doesn't have the highest motor, and he is a bit of tweener at 4/5. Collins may be a bit of a tweener now but he's 19. WCS is skilled, and he did finish the season on a high note, but the motor thing may or may not be a Joerger/FO thing, it may forever be somewhat prohibitive, and WCS is going to want to get paid in a couple of years. Rebounding seems a chore for him as does the little things, is that a mutable trait? Couple that with what Papa was showing towards the end of the season. We are going to have to eventually pay one of them with all our other young players. We are a small market and will only be able to pay so many of our assets handsomely.

Is WCS skilled enough and can it work? Sure it can. Can he make us look silly if we didn't keep him? Yes. But as one of the more detractive members, I see opportunity as an asset with the way he ended the season as well in terms of trade value. For me, if we took a Isaac/Tatum, we could easily move up to procure a Fox/Smith with Minny with his contract. Or we can take one of the bigs on draft day and work from a position of strength. And I'm saying, don't be surprised if he isn't on this roster come fall, they may feel like I do

No right or wrong, some just feel differently about WCS' prospects, but we all agree that the way he ended the season was positive, as a player or asset
 
biltalent

biltalent

Starter
#34
#34
206Fan said:
I swear if Willie showed any ability to box-out at all.... no one would even be considering Zach Collins. Even at the end of the season, he was rebounding, but he still wasn't boxing out. He just jumped harder for rebounds...

boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

To make things worse, Skal doesn't know how to rebound either. Struggles to box out, and gets pushed easily. Papagiannis struggles the least to box out, but he's still a below-average rebounder for a C. How hard is it to box out???
Click to expand...
funkykingston said:
Why don't guys box out?

Because they don't have to.

When you are the biggest and most athletic guy in high school you can just jump and grab boards.

CWebb was a guy who was athletic and had great hands who didn't box out consistently.

It's a fundamental skill that should be taught early but very often it just isn't.
Click to expand...
That's what I like so much about Collins. He is so fundamentally sound! He boxes out. He uses vertically as good as anyone. His shooting mechanics are nice. Willie on the other hand is all physical potential but I am getting worried that it will never translate to actual production. He doesnt box out. Even worse, he does not use vertically well, does not protect the rim and cant guard the perimeter. And his jump shot has improved but he is not nearly the shooter that Collins is. And remember, Collins is more than 4 years younger while already being way more skilled.
With Collins you have the hope that he can turn into an allstar, a modern day center that can protect the rim, switch AND stretch the floor. A total game changer. Now whether he can he reach this level is of course up in question. But I think there is at least a decent chance. And NBA teams seem to think the same.
 
Suicide King

Suicide King

Starter
#35
#35
@Kingsfan23

I dont see the lack of motor apparently. I think Willie does what he is asked to do. Tweener? The man is 7 feet tall, 240lbs. He is not in the same mould of Papa, he is not a bruiser. In fact, I think as a center, it's hard to place him in any mould but his own.

Again, I support the Kings not the Willie's :) If it is deemed his value is better served as a trade chip, I will still be a Kings fan afterwards.

I just feel he sometimes gets a bad rap around here and I believe it's too soon to write "The End" regarding him as developed player.

And who knows, 29 teams may regret not drafting Collins.
 
Kingsfan23

Kingsfan23

All-Star
#36
#36
I love me some Collins. I was thinking at first if we weren't able to safely attain a consensus combo PG/SF that I would advocate trading down... Actually, Id love Collins at 10. This does go hand in hand with my views on WCS as a fine trade prospect, and I respect the fact that others and/or the FO might not concede that.

I think Collins would be dynamite with Skal/Papa and/or a consensus SF. Moving WCS at I believe peak value.

He's just solid all around. Nothing else to say
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#37
#37
To me, drafting Collins isn't about whether he's an upgrade over our current bigs or not. That's something we won't know for some time, especially since we don't really know how good they're going to be. You draft Collins because he's the best player available at that point. Right now, I can't say whether he will or won't be, because right now, we don't know who will be available when we pick. Here's my current top 10 list.

1. Fultz
2. Jackson
3. Fox
4. Isaac
5. Ball
6. Tatum
7. Smith
8. Monk
9. Collins
10. Markkanen

I'm not suggesting that this is how the draft will go, but how I happen to value those players. I think anyone that sleeps on Isaac is making a huge mistake. The truth is, those top seven could be juggled a lot of different ways depending on team needs.
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#38
#38
Suicide King said:
@Kingsfan23

I dont see the lack of motor apparently. I think Willie does what he is asked to do. Tweener? The man is 7 feet tall, 240lbs. He is not in the same mould of Papa, he is not a bruiser. In fact, I think as a center, it's hard to place him in any mould but his own.

Again, I support the Kings not the Willie's :) If it is deemed his value is better served as a trade chip, I will still be a Kings fan afterwards.

I just feel he sometimes gets a bad rap around here and I believe it's too soon to write "The End" regarding him as developed player.

And who knows, 29 teams may regret not drafting Collins.
Click to expand...
It is my firm belief that we've only seen the top of the iceberg with Willie. I believe there's a lot more to come. He does need to keep rebounding like he did once Cuz was gone, or was that lost on those that don't think he can't rebound. I think it's fair to be critical of him for not doing it sooner, but he did show he's capable of being a good rebounder. He is a bit of a strange duck at times, but he's our duck, and anyone that's walked around the university of Oregon campus knows to fear the duck.:eek:
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#39
#39
Listened to the James Hamm and Aaron Bruski podcast today which mostly covered the upcoming draft. During the conversation, Zach Collins name came up, a player that Bruski likes. Hamm said that he spoke with some of the Kings personnel that were in attendance and they said that Collins had one of the most sophisticated post games, that any of them have ever seen come through for a workout. One said he reminded him of Kevin McHale with one post move on top of another post move on top of another post move.

He said that after the post workout interviews with the press, Collins went back in and they ran him through a three point shooting drill. Once again, they said that they had no idea he could shoot the three that well. In short, he blew the Kings staff away. If the Kings get Fox at five, and all the usual suspects at SF are gone, don't be surprised if the Kings take Collins at ten.
 
Ozymandias

Ozymandias

All-Star
#40
#40
bajaden said:
Listened to the James Hamm and Aaron Bruski podcast today which mostly covered the upcoming draft. During the conversation, Zach Collins name came up, a player that Bruski likes. Hamm said that he spoke with some of the Kings personnel that were in attendance and they said that Collins had one of the most sophisticated post games, that any of them have ever seen come through for a workout. One said he reminded him of Kevin McHale with one post move on top of another post move on top of another post move.

He said that after the post workout interviews with the press, Collins went back in and they ran him through a three point shooting drill. Once again, they said that they had no idea he could shoot the three that well. In short, he blew the Kings staff away. If the Kings get Fox at five, and all the usual suspects at SF are gone, don't be surprised if the Kings take Collins at ten.
Click to expand...
Glad to hear it. I'm all for Zach Collins, all I can say is I was quickly convinced he was lottery grade watching him this year. To me, he passes the eye test with flying colors and measuring a 9'3" standing reach only helped his cause.

It seems like he and Willie would mesh well.
 
Kingsfan23

Kingsfan23

All-Star
#41
#41
bajaden said:
Listened to the James Hamm and Aaron Bruski podcast today which mostly covered the upcoming draft. During the conversation, Zach Collins name came up, a player that Bruski likes. Hamm said that he spoke with some of the Kings personnel that were in attendance and they said that Collins had one of the most sophisticated post games, that any of them have ever seen come through for a workout. One said he reminded him of Kevin McHale with one post move on top of another post move on top of another post move.

He said that after the post workout interviews with the press, Collins went back in and they ran him through a three point shooting drill. Once again, they said that they had no idea he could shoot the three that well. In short, he blew the Kings staff away. If the Kings get Fox at five, and all the usual suspects at SF are gone, don't be surprised if the Kings take Collins at ten.
Click to expand...
I'm concerned he won't be there at 10
 
D

dude12

Hall of Famer
#42
#42
If our big man rotation was WCS and Papa at the 5, Skal and Collins at the 4.......at some point Koufos will be gone but until then he gets burn, that's pretty good for awhile. We should be set at the 2 and then the draft will bring a PG or SF.
 
2

206Fan

All-Star
#44
#44
bajaden said:
Listened to the James Hamm and Aaron Bruski podcast today which mostly covered the upcoming draft. During the conversation, Zach Collins name came up, a player that Bruski likes. Hamm said that he spoke with some of the Kings personnel that were in attendance and they said that Collins had one of the most sophisticated post games, that any of them have ever seen come through for a workout. One said he reminded him of Kevin McHale with one post move on top of another post move on top of another post move.

He said that after the post workout interviews with the press, Collins went back in and they ran him through a three point shooting drill. Once again, they said that they had no idea he could shoot the three that well. In short, he blew the Kings staff away. If the Kings get Fox at five, and all the usual suspects at SF are gone, don't be surprised if the Kings take Collins at ten.
Click to expand...
Collins is definitely one of those guys who would excel in workouts. Similar to guys like Skal, Tatum, and Malachi. Nothing wrong with this at all, but it wouldn't surprise me if hes making money through predraft workouts.

I really wish we could've seen what Collins could do with extended minutes. Usually, guys averages will come down when given more minutes vs sample size, however we just don't.

I think for those who haven't seen Collins play much at Gonzaga are going to be surprised by him in the NBA. Can play above the rim, while showing soft touch around the rim. His post moves are a work in progress, but apparently he wowed our coaching staffs. His shot is funny, but he can make mid range and occasional 3s. On D, he can block shots and rebound. As a player, he's not scared of anything. That's the intangible I love about him. If Gonzaga needs a basket, he goes out and scores. If Gonzaga needs a rebound, he has no problem putting his body out there and playing physical. Hate to compare him Hansbrough, but in regards to competitiveness at Gonzaga, he reminded me Physco T with the Physco. I'd also compare his fire to Cousins too.

Again, I really wish we could've saw a lot more of him in college. Also wish he didn't get into as much foul trouble as he did. If he can play discipline defense, he should be able to have an impact on both ends of the floor.

Before the season started, someone asked if there was anyone on Gonzaga worth watching, I said no damn way. You're just wasting your time. That's seriously how much Collins has improved in that little amount of time. I didn't follow his career in depth, but you would've never expected this to be the same Collins in HS.

I think as long as he has his head at the right places while improving on his bball IQ and discpline on both ends, he can be a top 5 player from this draft. I think he has a medium floor high ceiling.

Despite all my praises for him, I still pause at drafting him. Sample size is the thing that gets me.
 
J

Jimbob

Bench
#45
#45
Kevin McHale huh, I made the same questionable comparison in another thread. I only say this because I'm not one that feels comfortable describing skill sets or comparing players. Someone better at it is too apt to shoot me down.
I watched most my NBA in the 80's and early 90's before moving overseas. I tried to watch as much Kings as possible while they were good in the early 20's. McHale was unlikable but darn he was effective, and the bits and pieces Iv'e seen of Collins has provoked memories.
 
Ozymandias

Ozymandias

All-Star
#46
#46
He's sorta like David Lee but bigger aind better at a younger age, he's got more range, he's not quite as ambidexterous, probably not quite the same nose for rebounds. Ivan Rabb is also a player I've compared to Lee for many years, he's got the ambidexterity though..
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#47
#47
206Fan said:
Collins is definitely one of those guys who would excel in workouts. Similar to guys like Skal, Tatum, and Malachi. Nothing wrong with this at all, but it wouldn't surprise me if hes making money through predraft workouts.

I really wish we could've seen what Collins could do with extended minutes. Usually, guys averages will come down when given more minutes vs sample size, however we just don't.

I think for those who haven't seen Collins play much at Gonzaga are going to be surprised by him in the NBA. Can play above the rim, while showing soft touch around the rim. His post moves are a work in progress, but apparently he wowed our coaching staffs. His shot is funny, but he can make mid range and occasional 3s. On D, he can block shots and rebound. As a player, he's not scared of anything. That's the intangible I love about him. If Gonzaga needs a basket, he goes out and scores. If Gonzaga needs a rebound, he has no problem putting his body out there and playing physical. Hate to compare him Hansbrough, but in regards to competitiveness at Gonzaga, he reminded me Physco T with the Physco. I'd also compare his fire to Cousins too.

Again, I really wish we could've saw a lot more of him in college. Also wish he didn't get into as much foul trouble as he did. If he can play discipline defense, he should be able to have an impact on both ends of the floor.

Before the season started, someone asked if there was anyone on Gonzaga worth watching, I said no damn way. You're just wasting your time. That's seriously how much Collins has improved in that little amount of time. I didn't follow his career in depth, but you would've never expected this to be the same Collins in HS.

I think as long as he has his head at the right places while improving on his bball IQ and discpline on both ends, he can be a top 5 player from this draft. I think he has a medium floor high ceiling.

Despite all my praises for him, I still pause at drafting him. Sample size is the thing that gets me.
Click to expand...
Amazing that you should say that his post moves are a work in progress when the Kings that worked him out said he had the most advanced post moves of anyone that they've ever worked out. One compared him to Kevin McHale. And I might add, that matches what I saw this year at Gonzaga. I think everyone would have liked to see him get more minutes, but that's how Mark Few runs his team. If he has a talented senior at your position, then that player is going to get most of the minutes. Collins himself said he hadn't planned on coming out this year, but all the GM's and scouts were telling him that he was going to go in the lottery.
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#48
#48
Jimbob said:
Kevin McHale huh, I made the same questionable comparison in another thread. I only say this because I'm not one that feels comfortable describing skill sets or comparing players. Someone better at it is too apt to shoot me down.
I watched most my NBA in the 80's and early 90's before moving overseas. I tried to watch as much Kings as possible while they were good in the early 20's. McHale was unlikable but darn he was effective, and the bits and pieces Iv'e seen of Collins has provoked memories.
Click to expand...
Beings you like comparisons :rolleyes:, I compared McHale to Bob Pettit when he was a rookie. And you know what, he made Pettit proud. Pettit was my hero by the way at that time, and I was fortunate to meet and know him. Great great player!
 
J

Jimbob

Bench
#49
#49
bajaden said:
Beings you like comparisons :rolleyes:, I compared McHale to Bob Pettit when he was a rookie. And you know what, he made Pettit proud. Pettit was my hero by the way at that time, and I was fortunate to meet and know him. Great great player!
Click to expand...
That's cool. My earliest memories of NBA players were pistol pete and Tiny Archibald. Oddly enough I was a Kings fan before Sacramento because I was born in Omaha but moved to Sacramento very young.

Basketball was my least favorite of the big 3 american sports as a kid. As a youngin, my dad would often take me to Oakland to see Vida Blue, Reggie Jackson, Sal Bando.... but he was a huge Cardinal fan bei
 
bajaden

bajaden

Hall of Famer
#50
#50
Jimbob said:
That's cool. My earliest memories of NBA players were pistol pete and Tiny Archibald. Oddly enough I was a Kings fan before Sacramento because I was born in Omaha but moved to Sacramento very young.

Basketball was my least favorite of the big 3 american sports as a kid. As a youngin, my dad would often take me to Oakland to see Vida Blue, Reggie Jackson, Sal Bando.... but he was a huge Cardinal fan bei
Click to expand...
Well I was born and raised in St. Louis, and therefore a huge Cardinal fan. Stan the Man was my baseball idol. I went on to play the game until I injured my throwing arm. They didn't have miracle surgeries back in those days. Because of my Cardinal connection, I hated the Giants and Dodgers. Therefore when I moved to Sacramento, I became an A's fan, and A Warriors fan as well. It worked out well since the A's went on to win multiple world championships, and the Warriors with Rick Barry won a championship as well.

Now it's time for the Kings!!
 
J

Jimbob

Bench
#51
#51
bajaden said:
Well I was born and raised in St. Louis, and therefore a huge Cardinal fan. Stan the Man was my baseball idol. I went on to play the game until I injured my throwing arm. They didn't have miracle surgeries back in those days. Because of my Cardinal connection, I hated the Giants and Dodgers. Therefore when I moved to Sacramento, I became an A's fan, and A Warriors fan as well. It worked out well since the A's went on to win multiple world championships, and the Warriors with Rick Barry won a championship as well.

Now it's time for the Kings!!
Click to expand...
My above message got cut off...my dad was a huge redbird fan because being from Omaha, St. Louis was the nearest pro ball team back in those days. Once we moved to Sacramento everytime the Cards played the Giants we were there. Bob Gibson vs Juan Marichal was classic. Sorry about your injury, but cool midwest connection.
 
ParniValjak

ParniValjak

All-Star
#52
#52
I don't mind Collins. I like thathe has both inside and outside game and has good timing as a shot blocker.

I would still like to see us try and trade up using our pick 10 and cap space in some shape or form. Trading up to try and get Fox and Tatum would be a home run draft for me.
 
T

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer
#53
#53
Glad to see I'm on the same page as NBA scouts :)

@206Fan I'm almost glad he didn't start this season or he would have been in the conversation as a top 5 pick rather than a late lottery guy. And we saw in the tournament how damn effective he was when he started to get extended burn.

I just don't see any weakness in his game that leads me to believe he won't at minimum be a very good starter. He gets foul prone and he's not a good playmaker. That's literally it. He rebounds on both ends, he'll be able to stretch the floor with his shooting, he has ridiculously advanced footwork for a 19 year old big man, he has outstanding rim protection skills/instincts, he works his butt off on both ends of the court, he already has a well-built frame at 19 and isn't a twig (can get better obviously), he's an excellent athlete that will give him the ability to switch and cover the perimeter.


I wonder what I'm seeing that most other draft guys aren't to not have him as a lock top 10 player in the draft.
 
P

pdizo916

Bench
#54
#54
The_Jamal said:
Glad to see I'm on the same page as NBA scouts :)

@206Fan I'm almost glad he didn't start this season or he would have been in the conversation as a top 5 pick rather than a late lottery guy. And we saw in the tournament how damn effective he was when he started to get extended burn.

I just don't see any weakness in his game that leads me to believe he won't at minimum be a very good starter. He gets foul prone and he's not a good playmaker. That's literally it. He rebounds on both ends, he'll be able to stretch the floor with his shooting, he has ridiculously advanced footwork for a 19 year old big man, he has outstanding rim protection skills/instincts, he works his butt off on both ends of the court, he already has a well-built frame at 19 and isn't a twig (can get better obviously), he's an excellent athlete that will give him the ability to switch and cover the perimeter.


I wonder what I'm seeing that most other draft guys aren't to not have him as a lock top 10 player in the draft.
Click to expand...

How is his passing ability in the post, or just in general?
 
Ozymandias

Ozymandias

All-Star
#56
#56
pdizo916 said:
How is his passing ability in the post, or just in general?
Click to expand...
It's actually pretty good. At worst he's decent. He didn't exactly get to display this at Gonzaga but he's capable. Of the 3 former HS Teammates; Zimmerman, Chase Jeter and Collins his passing was definitely the best.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.