Woj - Kings Simmons pursuit OVER

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Livinthedream

All-Star
#31
#31
If Simmons is as valuable as Morey seems to think, the Sixers are fools for not doing what they could to get him back on the court to begin with.

Once a team signals through their actions that they don't value their own player, trade value is tanked.

Doc Rivers messed up. Embiid messed up. Simmons can claim that his work place environment itself is detrimental to his health. Whether we like it or not, it's a valid medical argument that Philly would have a hard to disputing. Morey is a fool for thinking he has leverage and fool for not moving on from the situation ASAP. Free agents are going to look at how this situation went down and at least have to consider whether the coach, other players and GM will point the finger at them if the season doesn't end the way they all hope.

I truly hope that behind the scenes McNair isn't negotiating like Morey with other teams.
 
upinsmoke

upinsmoke

All-Star
#32
#32
Livinthedream said:
If Simmons is as valuable as Morey seems to think, the Sixers are fools for not doing what they could to get him back on the court to begin with.

Once a team signals through their actions that they don't value their own player, trade value is tanked.

Doc Rivers messed up. Embiid messed up. Simmons can claim that his work place environment itself is detrimental to his health. Whether we like it or not, it's a valid medical argument that Philly would have a hard to disputing. Morey is a fool for thinking he has leverage and fool for not moving on from the situation ASAP. Free agents are going to look at how this situation went down and at least have to consider whether the coach, other players and GM will point the finger at them if the season doesn't end the way they all hope.

I truly hope that behind the scenes McNair isn't negotiating like Morey with other teams.
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I dont think Imbiid or Doc messed up they went to bat for him soo many times and the one time they dont shower him with praise he melts like a snow cone at the state fair. Then to claim some form of "mental illness" is even worse b/c if its true that's not going to inspire confidence in any team trying to acquire him. Terribly played by Klutch IMO.
 
L

Livinthedream

All-Star
#33
#33
upinsmoke said:
I dont think Imbiid or Doc messed up they went to bat for him soo many times and the one time they dont shower him with praise he melts like a snow cone at the state fair. Then to claim some form of "mental illness" is even worse b/c if its true that's not going to inspire confidence in any team trying to acquire him. Terribly played by Klutch IMO.
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I'm speaking from a medical stand point on the mental health argument. Not on whether the average fan thinks Simmons should suck it up or be tougher. Whether fans thinks Simmons is faking it or not is irrelevant, because how in the world would we know what's going on in his head.

The response after the games from Embiid and Rivers were emotional, not smart and can be used in an argument by Simmons to point to a hostile environment. How that affects Simmons trade value, I don't know. But this started with Doc publicly questioning whether their 3x all star can lead their team. The end result after a series of missteps was Simmons demanding a trade and sitting out due to mental health.

As a GM and a coach, you have to know what you're working with and act accordingly. Some players respond to being publicly shamed. Other need to have tough discussions behind closed doors.
 
L

Livinthedream

All-Star
#38
#38
Warhawk said:
This is so overblown it is laughable. A hostile work environment? That's just hilarious.
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I'm not arguing for that one way or another. I'm saying that, sitting in front of say an arbitrator, prove that Simmons is lying. Sixers are on record making publicly disparaging remarks. Prove that had no impact mentally.

Saying he's soft is not a winning argument.
 
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D

dude12

Hall of Famer
#39
#39
Livinthedream said:
I'm not arguing for that one way or another. I'm saying that, sitting in front of say an arbitrator, prove that Simmons is lying. Sixers are on record making publicly disparaging remarks. Prove that had no impact mentally.

Saying he's soft is not a winning argument.
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I think if it came to an arbitrator, which I personally view as absurd, the 76ers would probably have no shortage of material to hold against Simmons. He quit on his team
 
L

Livinthedream

All-Star
#42
#42
dude12 said:
Huh…..he’s quit on this team. Why would I go to something before he quit. It’s about the NOW. This is when he quit.
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That's the point. The now is the result of the previous incidents. He didn't arbitrarily "quit."

Doesn't matter. He's soft. He's a quitter, etc. Kings are currently out of the trade discussions. My nearly year long stance that Kings fans would despise Simmons remains.
 
whozit

whozit

Starter
#43
#43
dude12 said:
Huh…..he’s quit on this team. Why would I go to something before he quit. It’s about the NOW. This is when he quit.
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That would be part of the problem and why a arbitrator could be necessary. Did he quit because of disorder or is the "disorder" to cover for him quitting? Or is the truth somewhere in between? Now is only relevant because they are at an empasse. Chicken or the egg, what came first? As time passes, I personally am less willing for the risk unless at bargain prices.
 
D

dude12

Hall of Famer
#44
#44
Livinthedream said:
That's the point. The now is the result of the previous incidents. He didn't arbitrarily "quit."

Doesn't matter. He's soft. He's a quitter, etc. Kings are currently out of the trade discussions. My nearly year long stance that Kings fans would despise Simmons remains.
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What are the previous incidents then?
 
pdxKingsFan

pdxKingsFan

So Ordinary That It's Truly Quite Extraordinary
Staff member
#45
#45
I'm not defending Simmons who did quit on his team but I don't understand those who want to say it all happened in a bubble. I've never seen players on a team blame one single guy for their loss. Nobody was like "Can't believe Fox missed two free throws to win and we lost by one" or "That dumas Vlade tipped the ball right to an open man". It DOESN'T HAPPEN. Keep that shhh inside the org.

Oh wait, I've seen it happen exactly one other time with Peyton Manning and it was bush league then too, although a hell of a lot more true.
 
L

Livinthedream

All-Star
#48
#48
dude12 said:
Doc was asked if Ben could lead them to a championship and he said he wasn’t sure right now. Not the answer Ben wants to hear but also not like he came out and said Ben is terrible, or he cost us a championship, etc. tough to hear for Ben but also, a fair response.
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Doc should never have answered that question.

If the media asked Monte if Fox was capable of leading this team to the playoffs, Monte better say yes. Because if he answers "I don't know," then Monte better be in the process of trading Fox, because the trust is lost.

This is player management 101. In public, praise individuals. If you're going to be negative, put it on the team. If the individual player wants to take responsibility for his mistakes, that's on him.
 
D

dude12

Hall of Famer
#49
#49
Livinthedream said:
Doc should never have answered that question.

If the media asked Monte if Fox was capable of leading this team to the playoffs, Monte better say yes. Because if he answers "I don't know," then Monte better be in the process of trading Fox, because the trust is lost.

This is player management 101. In public, praise individuals. If you're going to be negative, put it on the team. If the individual player wants to take responsibility for his mistakes, that's on him.
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All true but also not a reason for a grown man to take his ball and go home. Be pissed off sure, quit on your team? Looks like Doc was right when he wasn’t sure.
 
L

Livinthedream

All-Star
#50
#50
dude12 said:
All true but also not a reason for a grown man to take his ball and go home. Be pissed off sure, quit on your team? Looks like Doc was right when he wasn’t sure.
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Doc all but guaranteed it with that comment.

But I agree that Simmons should have handled his side differently. Who knows what happened behind closed doors after that. Whatever went down, it wasn't enough to bring Simmons back on board.
 
LPKingsFan

LPKingsFan

All-Star
#51
#51
dude12 said:
Doc was asked if Ben could lead them to a championship and he said he wasn’t sure right now. Not the answer Ben wants to hear but also not like he came out and said Ben is terrible, or he cost us a championship, etc. tough to hear for Ben but also, a fair response.
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it wasn’t even that, though? Wasn’t it just whether Simmons could be the point guard of a championship team? Pretty mild, to be honest.
 
Warhawk

Warhawk

Give blood and save a life!
Staff member
#54
#54
Livinthedream said:
Doc should never have answered that question.

If the media asked Monte if Fox was capable of leading this team to the playoffs, Monte better say yes. Because if he answers "I don't know," then Monte better be in the process of trading Fox, because the trust is lost.

This is player management 101. In public, praise individuals. If you're going to be negative, put it on the team. If the individual player wants to take responsibility for his mistakes, that's on him.
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But it wasn't a playoffs question, it was "can this player be the PG for a championship team". Doc didn't say "no", he said "I don't know". That's a VERY high bar built into the question, and Ben certainly wasn't meeting it. What's Doc going to do, say, "You know, I look at shooting 25 of 73 from the stripe and his complete inability to even try taking a shot in the 4th quarter in 7 games, and that just really screams out 'championship-level point guard' to me". (Ben took 3 shots total, in the 4th quarters, in an entire 7 game series.) Doc would have been laughed out of the room. You don't bald-faced lie. You brush off the question with an "I don't know", because as soon as you say "Yes" everyone knows you are lying out your ***.

Maybe, just maybe, the coach knows Ben better than you or I or anyone else here, and maybe Doc thought that's what Ben needed to hear to actually work to improve. He certainly hasn't improved from his rookie year to his last year played. His PPG have dropped by 1.5 from his rookie year with just one less minute per game. His FG% has improved only 1%. His rebound #s dropped by about 1 per game. His assists dropped by over 1 per game. Steals didn't improve. His blocks went down by about 1/3. And he's committing more fouls.

Here's a summary of the whole situation: Ben Simmons' beef with 76ers explained: A complete timeline of ongoing drama between both sides - CBSSports.com

When asked if he thought Simmons could be a championship-level point guard, Rivers replied "I don't know the answer to that."

Rivers didn't wait too long to qualify the comments he made after Game 7. "I'm very bullish on Ben still," he said to media members during his end-of-season media availability. "But there's work. There is. And Ben will be willing to do it, and that's the key. Sometimes you have to go through stuff to see it, and to be honest with it." Rivers went on to say that the team had a plan in place to help Simmons improve as a shooter over the offseason.
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I mean, WOW. That's enough right there to make anyone curl up in the fetal position and quit on their team, am I right? :rolleyes:
 
KainLear

KainLear

Starter
#55
#55
davebuzz said:
30-19 kinda karma?
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No, the "using up your superstar's prime years to argue semantics instead of really finding the pieces to give your superstar the best chance to win a ring" kinda karma.

I don't need to give anyone a reminder of one Joel "never played a full season" Embiid. I hope they don't waste this year because of setting a too stingy asking price for Simmons. Imagine if they go deep and fall short this season with Simmons on the sideline, then Embiid keeps getting dinked up throughout the rest of his Playoffs career (Not trying to jinx him but his health, the lack thereof, has been on record), how would you feel as a Sixers fan?
 
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T

Turgenev

Starter
#56
#56
Warhawk said:
Maybe, just maybe, the coach knows Ben better than you or I or anyone else here, and maybe Doc thought that's what Ben needed to hear to actually work to improve. He certainly hasn't improved from his rookie year to his last year played. His PPG have dropped by 1.5 from his rookie year with just one less minute per game. His FG% has improved only 1%. His rebound #s dropped by about 1 per game. His assists dropped by over 1 per game. Steals didn't improve. His blocks went down by about 1/3. And he's committing more fouls.
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I enjoyed this point from the guardian a little while ago. Sure, Philly has handled this pretty poorly and have been pretty obnoxious plus kind of dumb. But, aside from the baseline value of a middle finger, Ben hasn't won any points either.
What makes Simmons’s decision to walk away jarring is that his father, a player of much more modest skills than his son, battled just to have any kind of basketball career at all. Dave Simmons made it the hard way. He came from the South Bronx and was recruited off the playgrounds by a school called Oklahoma Baptist. He played a year, transferring to a nearby junior college for a year to improve his grades, then returned to Oklahoma Baptist. Later he transferred to Oklahoma City University, where he played for the colorful Abe Lemons. Then he travelled halfway across the globe Australia to carve out a professional basketball there for 13 years. He was a league all-star, and his jersey number, 25 (the same as his son’s), was eventually retired by the Melbourne Tigers.
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link
 
kb02

kb02

All-Star
#57
#57
Turgenev said:
I enjoyed this point from the guardian a little while ago. Sure, Philly has handled this pretty poorly and have been pretty obnoxious plus kind of dumb. But, aside from the baseline value of a middle finger, Ben hasn't won any points either.


link
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I don't know, man. Ben's father struggled to give his son a better life. Props to him for that. But no matter how well the dad tried to convey his upbringing, Ben grew up in a different environment than him--as the son of a star player in the Aussie league. And since we're discussing hindsight stuff, if you're his dad, Ben is an undeniable success. Dad gave him enough genes, structure, discipline, and habits to develop into a global talent. As a parent, that's pretty much the only thing that I can really hope for--find something that my kid loves, hope he develops enough discipline and habits to thrive in that something, and if it doesn't work out, hope the discipline and habits carry over to every other part of his life.
 
Kingster

Kingster

Hall of Famer
#58
#58
The team that makes sense for a Simmons trade destination is Minni. They actually have a center who is a legit threat from the outside and who therefore can deal with the Simmons' inadequacy on offense. He also fits their need for defense. I am very curious where Simmons ends up. Just don't make it the Kings.
 
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