Tony Parker
Why hasn't our perimeter defense improved one bit this season?
- Thread starter GoSACtown
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Tony Parker
Chubbs
Starter
Last edited:
Entity
Hall of Famer
Hadlowe
Starter
It does when it allows his man to stay in his jersey on the perimeter or for a rotation to cut off the passing lane to the wing when Korver is curling off screens. Strong interior defense allows perimeter players to actually guard the perimeter instead of just guarding against penetration.
The wide open 3s in the corner? Or the one on the break when the guys werent getting back on defense? Or the night before when both IT and Ben got lost chasing Kemba for wide open back to back 3s?
I see it both ways but I just dont see how getting a rim protector stops our guards from terrible bonehead defenders in a guard heavy, perimter heavy league
Not what you said. Parker and IT had similar games at the beginning of their career.
Chubbs
Starter
This is a senseless argument. There's just a difference between 6'2 and 5'8 no matter how similar their games may be. The spurs wouldn't go for someone with such a limited ceiling on the defensive side. Pun intended.
Its senseless because it debunks the crap out of your argument lol. Parker has never been more than an average defender. And he's possibly had the greatest defensive big of all-time behind him his whole career
But sure, good day
I swear you spent time during the tyreke evans debates arguing that Parker was a good defender.
Hmm not sure. From what I recall, i've always said Parker is average, and looks better than he really is, because he has had Duncan watching his back.
N0tmyfault
Bench
I have my moments where I despise IT, but he is a damn good player. And you are wrong, the Spurs consistently draft players that are defensively-weak players, but valuable in other areas...off the top of my head, Beno Udrih and Dejuan Blair come to mind. They have a great defensive system, along with great defensive anchor (Duncan) and coach (Pop) who have been running the same system for a decade. You just can't compare the two. It's unfair.
Chicago was a top 10 defensive team last year and they had an IT-like player (Nate Robinson).
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
The theory there is that a) the rim protector cleans up all the blown coverages by the guards; b) his presence deters other guards from even wanting to drive, thus saving us some more trouble, and c) because the rim protector is back there it clean up mistakes, the guards are able to crowd their men better on the perimeter, and make jumpers more difficult.
However, HOWEVER, I do have serious doubts any or all of that can fix all the things wrong with the way our guards play defense. Watching that series of snapshots of IT and Cuz defending the pick and roll there, and at 5'9" there is just no way for that to work. IT gets beat, Cuz stops the Teague drive, but IT is now either on Teague's hip, or behind him. If Cuz leaves to go after Horford, a 5'9" guy on Teague's hip isn't going to effectively challenge as Teague darts to the rim. If IT rotates to the big, in this case Horford, which is a common way to play that, well, IT is 5'9" and Horford is 6'10". Even if he played it perfectly do you think he is going to have any effect on Horford's resulting jumper?
A great rim protector can do many things, but at heart of course he is protecting that rim. Well on all those sequences Cuz managed to do that. Teague wasn't scoring at the rim. A longer shotblocking presence might be able to show more aggressively on Teague knowing he could still track him down from behind if he darted on by, but that still doesn't solve the problem of what to do with Horford. When your PG is 5'9" he just can't challenge a pop or a roll by a big guy.
Ben's a different issue. Ben is an epically bad defender. Its like somehow he's managed to go through a decade of organized basketball without ever actually having to defend anyone before. He does almost everything wrong at one time or another. But Ben is full sized for his position and extremely long/athletic. That is that defensive "potential" you hear about with him. IF he's smart enough, and dedicated enough, he should at least be able to defend a pick and roll effectively. He can challenge shots on another guard even if he's on their hip. He can challenge a big man's pick and pop jumper. He's really the only one of our guards where his defensive incompetence is not rooted in the physical (Marcus is ok physically, but not long).
Chubbs
Starter
Still waiting for the 5'8 guards they've drafted. That's all I meant. Name all those 5'8 POS selfish ballhogs the spurs have drafted through the years. There aren't any.
The more I think about it, the more I realize I just hate the players on this team right now. I miss the days of likable losers. This is just miserable. I need a break
Kingster
Hall of Famer
I'd like to know: Would a 5'10" pg challenge a pop or a roll by a big guy? How about 5'11"? 6'0"? 6'1"?
I'm just curious what size of a guard you think can challenge a pop or a roll by a big guy.
We took IT as the last pick in the draft.
He's the best 2nd round pick in Sacramento Kings history.
He's the best final pick in the draft ever taken since the NBA went to 2 rounds back 25 years ago or so.
If that draft could be done again right now, it's a no doubter that IT goes in the top 10.
You bet San Antonio would have taken him in the 2nd round. Even if he didn't fit in their scheme, he's easily 10x more valuable than his place in the lottery. Now if you want to talk about Fredette, that's fine. But IT is one of the best picks we've made.
This aggressive line of baiting really doesn't need to go any further. Since you're so adamant, I'll answer your question for you.
First, Isaiah Thomas measured officially at the NBA Combine as 5'8/75" in bare feet which makes him 5'10" in shoes. NBA heights are always, without exception, reported as height in shoes because everybody plays in shoes. So when you refer to Thomas' height, you should call him 5'10", not 5'8".
Second, the list of players at 5'10" in shoes and lower that have been drafted since 2000 (when we have pretty good info for official measurements) is very short:
Nate Robinson (5'9", New York, 2005)
Khalid El-Amin (5'9.75", Chicago, 2000)
Isaiah Thomas (5'10.25", Sacramento, 2011)
That appears to be the entire list. San Antonio did not draft any of those players. I hope this satisfies your question so you don't need to raise it again.
At the same time, the question doesn't really make any sense. San Antonio has drafted a large number of players over the past ten years who have either underperformed (Nando de Colo, James Anderson), downright flopped (Damir Markota, Marcus Williams), or never made it to the NBA and likely won't (Giorgos Printezis, James Gist, Jack McClinton, Ryan Richards). Of their last seven draft picks, only two have ever even seen time on an NBA court. Does San Antonio still deserve to be held up as a paragon of draft acumen?
In the 2011 draft, the Spurs selected two players (Adam Hanga, who has yet to play in the NBA, and Cory Joseph) while passing on Thomas. Do you not think in hindsight that they would have preferred to draft Thomas? Thomas is far from a perfect player, but he would appear to be far better than any player the Spurs have drafted since at least DeJuan Blair in 2009, and that includes three first-round picks.
Yeah, maybe so.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
When I was at the rally when Vivek was introduced, I stood about 5-10ft away from IT at one point and he was clearly a good 4-5" shorter than I am, and I'm 5'11 3/4" in shoes. Even my wife remarked how she was surprised someone a decent amount shorter than me could be an NBA player and how he was shorter than just about everyone standing near us. Standing right there he actually looked slightly shorter than my wife who's just below 5'7" in shoes. No she wasn't wearing heals. Weather was warm.
I take draft measurements with a grain of salt. My eyes told me something completely different. Now maybe I'm actually 6'3" or 6'4" and every doctor who's ever measured be as well as various basketball coaches I had were all off by 4 or more inches, but I somehow doubt it.
There is simply no way he's 5'10" in shoes. He wasn't walking around the rally barefoot. No measurements will tell me something different than my eyes witnessed standing right next to the guy.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Well if he's 5'8.75" w/o shoes, and you are 5'11.75 without shoes, then that is a 3 inch difference right there, without any conspiracy. if your shoes were thicker than his, maybe even 4.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
That's my height with shoes. I was wearing shoes, as was IT. Difference was greater than 3". If I'm just under 6' with shoes, a 3" difference would put IT at just under 5'9" with shoes, and it looked greater than a 3" difference to both the wife and I. Even when IT walked off others were talking about how short he looks in person.
We all know what 5'9"-5'10" looks like in person when standing right next to them. IT isn't it.
We all know what 5'9"-5'10" looks like in person when standing right next to them. IT isn't it.
T
Tom Bays
Guest
They aren't very good at help side defense so they don't show aggressively. They know their fellow players don't have their backs.
Glenn
Hall of Famer
IT is nowhere near 5'10". That's 2 inches shy of 6 feet, folks, and that's simply NOT TRUE. When KG4 and the little princesses were lucky enough to sit in press row, Isaiah stood directly in front of them on several occasions. KG4 said he's barely taller than she is - and she's only 5'6".
bajaden
Hall of Famer
You can't, but you can get in the passing lane and prevent the pass to Horford. Many times IT just stands and watches. A lot of the breakdowns come because there's no help defense. If Cuz gets stuck stopping the ball, then JT or whomevers responsibility it is, has to rotate to the basket to stop Horford. There's no way he should be allowed to go uncontested to the basket.
Kingster
Hall of Famer
I don't disagree with you. What I disagree with is the simplistic "he's too short argument" to defend pops and rolls (of big men) that Brick was postulating. How many pgs are tall enough to defend bigs on pops and rolls? Maybe there are two or three pgs in the NBA who are tall enough to do that, so it's basically a strawman.
I was listening to Malone on the radio. I didn't hear that anyone was exonerated from the poor defense. The guards and the big men were all in the pool. He also said that playing IT 40 minutes a game wasn't fair to IT and that IT was tired at the end of the last game. This goes back to what I've said repeatedly: You can't play him 40 minutes. Last year they said he was a 30 minute guy, kind of like Stockton. I agree with that. If you want him pressuring the D with his penetration and pressuring the ball on D you have to limit his minutes. Malone said he was going to trust in his team, just like he tells them they've got to trust in their teammates, and play Jimmer more. So come hell or high water Jimmer's going to get more pt. Better be ready, Jimmer. Miami is next.
ShastaKingsFan
All-Star
Still didn't sound like Ray Mac is going to get any consistent look
Sure makes it seem like they're not very confident in him based on practices, etc. doesn't it?
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Hardly a strawman, I ignored your query because it was simply dumb. Every inch matters. By the time guys are hitting 6'5" or so they can actually challenge to the point of blocking. Somewhere maybe a long 6'1" or 6'2" can have some distracting effect on shorter bigs. 5'9" guys don't even enter the field of vision.
You know why IT jockers look ridiculous? Because they are as insecure as the little man himself. Even the most obvious and glaring defects are feverishly denied, the most glaring facts pointedly ignored, because any cracks in the ole armor could lead to doubts. And we can't have those. 5'9" is 5'9". It makes it physically impossible to do certain things.
Entity
Hall of Famer
Something simple like the opposing guard holding the ball straight over his head. Isaiah can't even touch it without jumping. If he jumps guy goes around him. And standing there with hands up the player can pass the ball at any angle he wants. If Isaiah was tall enough for his hands to be at ball level or higher. #1 the opposing guard has to move the ball around to keep him from slapping #2 those two hands waiving around at or above ball level cuts off two angles that he can't pass to.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
Defense starts on the perimeter. A good shotblocking defender is insurance against perimeter breakdowns. However, a good shotblocker isn't going to do a thing to stop a Korver, or any other good three point shooter. Look, there are very few players in the league that can keep the Chris Paul's of the world in front of them. Its what happens after Paul beats his man off the dribble or the screen that matters. There are times when a shotblocker isn't going to be able to help, because he becomes the ball stopper off the pick. Thats when help defense has to be there, and that's when our PG has to recover his position after getting in the passing lane. On the Kings, in many cases, neither happens.
JT is very good in one on one situations near the post. But he gets caught out of position on rotations at times. There was an instance in the last game where he went to help McLemore on Korver. After rewatching, I decided that McLemore didn't really need help in that situation, but none the less he did. They essentially had Korver trapped on the right foul line near the corner. As soon as Korver picked up his dribble, JT should have gotten back to Millsap, but he didn't. And, he didn't trap either. Korver made the right pass and Millsap had a clear lane to the basket. Its just stupid little stuff like that that kills you. Once a game you can live with, but unfortunately it happens too often. Another example happened on the left side of the court and once again involved Korver. Korver came off a screen going to his left. Gay who was the one fighting through the screen saw JT heading toward Korver and so he headed toward Millsap. Suddenly, JT changed his mind and stopped and started back toward Millsap leaving Korver wide open in the corner. Of course he hit the open shot. The Hawks kept running the same play over and over again, and it kept working.
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