The Kings may be saying Dragic or bust as well, and that may be why nothing is happening. By the way, I can't imagine Winslow playing PF. He's barely 6'7" in shoes. I think they'd put Gay at PF before Winslow. But, it's not my team so who cares? Hey, if Gay wants to go to the Heat then get him to agree to an extension before trading him. See how bad he really wants to go there.
Who Would You Want for Gay?
- Thread starter twslam07
- Start date
I like the idea, but I really don't want to see us bring in Knight. And considering you argue so much about how Gay doesn't help a team win, it befuddles me that you want to bring Knight here. Gay actually has data that shows he makes a positive impact while Knight has next to none.
I'm going to change your idea and instead try to bring Dragic & Beverley here.
Heat Get: Cameron Payne, Mitch McGary, Sam Dekker, Montrezl Harrel, & Kyle Singler
Heat Give: Goran Dragic & Josh McRoberts
PG - Payne / Johnson / Weber
SG - Richardson / Waiters / Ellington
SF - Winslow / Dekker / Singler
PF - Bosh / Harrell / McGary / Haslem
C - Whiteside / Reed
(Waive Johnson, Williams, & Babbit)
Heat unload the 30 year old Dragic during a time when they aren't going to be too competitive for a lot of young pieces to add around their core going forward (Johnson, Richardson, Winslow, & Whiteside)
Rockets Get: Darren Collison & Kosta Koufos
Rockets Give: Patrick Beverley, Sam Dekker, Montrezl Harrell, & Gary Payton II
PG - Collison / Prignoni / Brown / Taylor
SG - Harden / Gordon / McDaniels
SF - Ariza / Brewer
PF - Anderson / Nene / Beasley
C - Capela / Koufos / Onuaku
Rockets move Beverley who isn't really a D'Antoni PG for Collison who should help push the pace. they also acquire a solid backup C to give them a rim protector on the floor for 48 minutes.
Thunder Get: Rudy Gay, Ben McLemore, & Gary Payton II
Thunder Give: Cameron Payne, Mitch McGary, Anthony Morrow, & Kyle Singler
PG - Westbrook / Payton
SG - Oladipo / Abrines / McLemore
SF - Gay / Roberson / Huestis / Hamilton
PF - Ilyasova / Collison / Sabonis
C - Adams / Kanter
Thunder gets an added scorer at SF that helps with the departure of Durant while also picking up some bench pieces to help with depth.
Kings Get: Goran Dragic, Patrick Beverley, Josh McRoberts, & Anthony Morrow
Kings Give: Rudy Gay, Darren Collison, Kosta Koufos, & Ben McLemore
PG - Dragic / Beverley / Cousins
SG - Afflalo / Temple / Richardson
SF - Casspi / Barnes / Morrow
PF - Cauley-Stein / Tolliver / McRoberts / Labissiere
C - Cousins / Papagiannis
Kings get a couple PGs on some long terms deals. Dragic can fill in as the #2 scorer while Beverley gives us a 3 and D PG when we want the offense to go more through Cousins.
I'm going to change your idea and instead try to bring Dragic & Beverley here.
Heat Get: Cameron Payne, Mitch McGary, Sam Dekker, Montrezl Harrel, & Kyle Singler
Heat Give: Goran Dragic & Josh McRoberts
PG - Payne / Johnson / Weber
SG - Richardson / Waiters / Ellington
SF - Winslow / Dekker / Singler
PF - Bosh / Harrell / McGary / Haslem
C - Whiteside / Reed
(Waive Johnson, Williams, & Babbit)
Heat unload the 30 year old Dragic during a time when they aren't going to be too competitive for a lot of young pieces to add around their core going forward (Johnson, Richardson, Winslow, & Whiteside)
Rockets Get: Darren Collison & Kosta Koufos
Rockets Give: Patrick Beverley, Sam Dekker, Montrezl Harrell, & Gary Payton II
PG - Collison / Prignoni / Brown / Taylor
SG - Harden / Gordon / McDaniels
SF - Ariza / Brewer
PF - Anderson / Nene / Beasley
C - Capela / Koufos / Onuaku
Rockets move Beverley who isn't really a D'Antoni PG for Collison who should help push the pace. they also acquire a solid backup C to give them a rim protector on the floor for 48 minutes.
Thunder Get: Rudy Gay, Ben McLemore, & Gary Payton II
Thunder Give: Cameron Payne, Mitch McGary, Anthony Morrow, & Kyle Singler
PG - Westbrook / Payton
SG - Oladipo / Abrines / McLemore
SF - Gay / Roberson / Huestis / Hamilton
PF - Ilyasova / Collison / Sabonis
C - Adams / Kanter
Thunder gets an added scorer at SF that helps with the departure of Durant while also picking up some bench pieces to help with depth.
Kings Get: Goran Dragic, Patrick Beverley, Josh McRoberts, & Anthony Morrow
Kings Give: Rudy Gay, Darren Collison, Kosta Koufos, & Ben McLemore
PG - Dragic / Beverley / Cousins
SG - Afflalo / Temple / Richardson
SF - Casspi / Barnes / Morrow
PF - Cauley-Stein / Tolliver / McRoberts / Labissiere
C - Cousins / Papagiannis
Kings get a couple PGs on some long terms deals. Dragic can fill in as the #2 scorer while Beverley gives us a 3 and D PG when we want the offense to go more through Cousins.
I think you are right about expectations having a lot to do with peoples dissatisfaction with Gay...However, for me the expectation has to do with effort and caring about what you put on the floor. Last season i thought no player played with less husle or passion than Rudy. He has no fire and gives poor effort on a regular basis. When he does try he is pretty good. When he doesn't, which was vast majority of games, he is less than starter material. Which Gay would you put your money on will show up next year? Id think the poor version so id trade him for pretty low value in return such as Beverly or Porter
K
I like that trade as well and me putting Knight in the trade does not make me a fan of his game at all (am I fan of PJ/Pat).
But here's why I would prefer Knight over Gay:
Knight can play 2 positions (I don't believe Rudy can play PF after watching him this year) in SG/PG and can play with or without the ball
Knight is 24, Rudy is 30
Knight by todays contracts and with the cap increase is on a very decent contract while Rudy could get a massive increase in pay in the next 2 seasons
Knight during the 2014-15 season with veteran leadership (Zaza/Dudley) took the Bucks to a 30-23 (a sample size nearly 4 times bigger than the greatest Mike Malone Kings run, nor has Cousins ever been 7 games over 500.)as a #1 option playing at a near All-Star level when they made a horrific trade for MCW and the Bucks finished 41-41 and were garbage this season benching MCW. This years the Suns flopped badly with Knight who had a number of injuries as did Bledsoe so he was a part of that failure no doubt which should be noted.
Knight also adds another guy who on a regular basis can get into the lane which we have badly lacked since we let go off both IT/Reke
I also made the Knight deal because it my mind it was the most realistic but I could be wrong. Would Knight/Cousins take us to the playoffs probably not but I've seen enough of Rudy at this point where I don't believe he would either and at least this way your getting a young hunger chucker for one that's older.
The thing that really worries me with Dragic is he's looked awful in the half court since coming to Miami he was a beast in Phoenix due to the transition points but with Cousins/DJ your playing a half court game where he struggled hard.
Ideally I would have wanted a 3 way deal where we got Wilson Chandler/Pat Beverley but I didn't check to see if it's doable and Chandler's injury history now is pretty damn lengthy.
But here's why I would prefer Knight over Gay:
Knight can play 2 positions (I don't believe Rudy can play PF after watching him this year) in SG/PG and can play with or without the ball
Knight is 24, Rudy is 30
Knight by todays contracts and with the cap increase is on a very decent contract while Rudy could get a massive increase in pay in the next 2 seasons
Knight during the 2014-15 season with veteran leadership (Zaza/Dudley) took the Bucks to a 30-23 (a sample size nearly 4 times bigger than the greatest Mike Malone Kings run, nor has Cousins ever been 7 games over 500.)as a #1 option playing at a near All-Star level when they made a horrific trade for MCW and the Bucks finished 41-41 and were garbage this season benching MCW. This years the Suns flopped badly with Knight who had a number of injuries as did Bledsoe so he was a part of that failure no doubt which should be noted.
Knight also adds another guy who on a regular basis can get into the lane which we have badly lacked since we let go off both IT/Reke
I also made the Knight deal because it my mind it was the most realistic but I could be wrong. Would Knight/Cousins take us to the playoffs probably not but I've seen enough of Rudy at this point where I don't believe he would either and at least this way your getting a young hunger chucker for one that's older.
The thing that really worries me with Dragic is he's looked awful in the half court since coming to Miami he was a beast in Phoenix due to the transition points but with Cousins/DJ your playing a half court game where he struggled hard.
Ideally I would have wanted a 3 way deal where we got Wilson Chandler/Pat Beverley but I didn't check to see if it's doable and Chandler's injury history now is pretty damn lengthy.
Last edited by a moderator:
I agree with most of that assessment. Age & contract is advantage Knight. The multiple position thing is really just your opinion, so I won't challenge it. However, Milwaukee was actually better with Knight off the floor during the stretch you speak of (-3.0 points per 100 possessions when Knight was on the court).
K
Than they would have been better without him according to that stat which they were not since they still had the same veteran leadership and Khriss Middleton by than was in full form after being benched at the the start of the season. That stat holds no weight when they won more games with him playing significant minutes and as soon as he left they were a sub 500. team. W/L > +/-. As soon as Knight left the supporting cast got weaker since they didn't have a go to guy (or a floor spacer @ PG) meaning teams could key in on Giannas/Middleton/OJ and company which therefore made them worse so he therefore made them a better team.
Of course it holds weight. What's foolish is to try and attribute a NBA outcome to only one thing. The NBA is not that simple. You should know that by now. This is the same thinking that gets you into trouble with Gay and his impact.
Besides, the players who replaced Knight in the trade have absolutely nothing to do with the statistic I provided.
Besides, the players who replaced Knight in the trade have absolutely nothing to do with the statistic I provided.
K
Are you not doing the same thing with the stat itself? (would him not being on the floor mean the oppositions best players are not on the floor or maybe that the bench unit the Bucks had was better than the starting unit and he therefore was carrying the starting unit against tougher opposition?) What's the name of that stat your using so I can see other examples of players.
K
But were they really? What variables does that stat take into account other than raw numbers? Could the Bucks getting blown out in losses and narrowly winning games (i don't know if this was the case just asking) mean that his net on/off could be negatively affected? Does it take into account who he's playing against? It just seems like a strange stat to me that a team could be better with a guy who at the time was averaging career numbers on healthy shooting %'s (44% from 2 and 41% from 3) and were 7 games over 500. (when there talent was not supposed to be there). I just don't believe the Bucks were better off without him.
And I'm not too against the idea of bringing aboard Knight. I think we can find some middle ground here. There are players that are certainly ahead of Knight that I would much rather go after like Dragic or Porter, but if it came down to it, I would trade Gay straight up for Knight mainly due to contract situation (Knight being locked up and with Gay being able to walk next year for nothing).
If we do bring Knight aboard, I have theories about how it could actually work, but again, I hesitate because of his track record for helping teams win. Knight is obviously not a #1 option that is going to take a team far. He's a secondary scorer. That was his role in Phoenix. However, the primary scorers were also PGs. I don't think the fit was that good. In Milwaukee (like you have mentioned) he was the top option. In Detroit, he had Monroe as the #1 option to work off. I'd be interested to see how Knight would do as a secondary scorer with the primary scorer being a big man. He experienced it in Detroit in his first 2 years, but again, I'd be interested to see how he does now with the player he is today.
I also think that if we do trade for him it doesn't necessarily mean he is our PG of the future. Personally, I'd like to see him accept a sixth man, combo guard role off the bench as I think that's where he'll be best on a team that can go far.
Let's just imagine everything works out for the Kings for once in our lives and say that all of our young guys end up becoming NBA contributors and live up to the hype, this would be our future roster
??? (starting caliber PG) / Knight (elite 6th man)
Richardson (3 & D) / Knight (elite 6th man) / Bogdanovic (Ginobli-esque)
??? (starting caliber SF) / Bogdanovic (Ginobli-esque)
Cauley-Stein (elite defender/rim protector) / Labissiere (shotblocking, strech 4)
Cousins (#1 scorer) / Papagiannis (solid defensive, rebounding big w/ stretch ability)
Again, this is super ambitious, but if you squint hard enough, you start to see the framework & potential.
If we do bring Knight aboard, I have theories about how it could actually work, but again, I hesitate because of his track record for helping teams win. Knight is obviously not a #1 option that is going to take a team far. He's a secondary scorer. That was his role in Phoenix. However, the primary scorers were also PGs. I don't think the fit was that good. In Milwaukee (like you have mentioned) he was the top option. In Detroit, he had Monroe as the #1 option to work off. I'd be interested to see how Knight would do as a secondary scorer with the primary scorer being a big man. He experienced it in Detroit in his first 2 years, but again, I'd be interested to see how he does now with the player he is today.
I also think that if we do trade for him it doesn't necessarily mean he is our PG of the future. Personally, I'd like to see him accept a sixth man, combo guard role off the bench as I think that's where he'll be best on a team that can go far.
Let's just imagine everything works out for the Kings for once in our lives and say that all of our young guys end up becoming NBA contributors and live up to the hype, this would be our future roster
??? (starting caliber PG) / Knight (elite 6th man)
Richardson (3 & D) / Knight (elite 6th man) / Bogdanovic (Ginobli-esque)
??? (starting caliber SF) / Bogdanovic (Ginobli-esque)
Cauley-Stein (elite defender/rim protector) / Labissiere (shotblocking, strech 4)
Cousins (#1 scorer) / Papagiannis (solid defensive, rebounding big w/ stretch ability)
Again, this is super ambitious, but if you squint hard enough, you start to see the framework & potential.
Well RPM is supposed to do a better job at accounting for who he plays with/against but it typically takes into account 2 seasons worth of data (so it would include the 2013-2014 season as well). It also doesn't split it out for the Milwaukee stretch of 2014-2015 so I didn't post it.
But RPM shows that Knight's teams are better with him off the floor: -2.36
There are issues with any of these stats, but generally, these are both saying that Knight's teams find more success when he is sitting on the bench. That's what makes me hesitant to bring him aboard.
But RPM shows that Knight's teams are better with him off the floor: -2.36
There are issues with any of these stats, but generally, these are both saying that Knight's teams find more success when he is sitting on the bench. That's what makes me hesitant to bring him aboard.
I guess a similar idea with less moving parts would be...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heat Get: Brandon Knight & Kosta Koufos
Heat Give: Goran Dragic & Willie Reed
Why for Heat? Dragic (30) is getting up there in age and considering the Heat aren't in a position to compete (and maybe begin retooling around Whiteside & their young guys), moving Dragic for a younger guard in Knight (24) gives them a larger window to get their roster back to a point where they can compete in the East. Koufos gives them a solid backup C who can log 16-20 minutes a night behind Whiteside, and he's at an age that continue to grow with the core (27).
PG - Knight / Johnson / Weber
SG - Richardson / Waiters / Ellington
SF - Winslow / Johnson / Williams / Babbit
PF - Bosh / McRoberts / Haslem
C - Whiteside / Koufos
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Suns Get: Rudy Gay & Ben McLemore
Suns Give: Brandon Knight
Why for Suns? Moving Knight and allowing Booker to start should be their go-to move as Booker has a lot of potential and is a better fit next to Bledsoe. In return, they get a solid starting SF who can give them another scorer but at a different position (rather than all of their scoring coming from their backcourt). They also get McLemore who could use a change of scenery and good find some success coming off the bench for them.
PG - Bledsoe / Barbosa / Goodwin / Ulis
SG - Booker / McLemore / Jenkins
SF - Gay / Tucker / Warren
PF - Dudley / Bender / Chriss
C - Chandler / Len
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kings Get: Goran Dragic & Willie Reed
Kings Give: Rudy Gay, Kosta Koufos, & Ben McLemore
Why for Kings? Dragic helps shore up their PG situation while maintaining a good secondary scorer. Dragic is also on a 3 year deal so we don't have to worry about him walking next year.
PG - Dragic / Collison / Cousins
SG - Afflalo / Temple / Patterson
SF - Casspi / Barnes / Richardson
PF - Cauley-Stein / Tolliver / Labissiere
C - Cousins / Reed / Papagiannis
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heat Get: Brandon Knight & Kosta Koufos
Heat Give: Goran Dragic & Willie Reed
Why for Heat? Dragic (30) is getting up there in age and considering the Heat aren't in a position to compete (and maybe begin retooling around Whiteside & their young guys), moving Dragic for a younger guard in Knight (24) gives them a larger window to get their roster back to a point where they can compete in the East. Koufos gives them a solid backup C who can log 16-20 minutes a night behind Whiteside, and he's at an age that continue to grow with the core (27).
PG - Knight / Johnson / Weber
SG - Richardson / Waiters / Ellington
SF - Winslow / Johnson / Williams / Babbit
PF - Bosh / McRoberts / Haslem
C - Whiteside / Koufos
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Suns Get: Rudy Gay & Ben McLemore
Suns Give: Brandon Knight
Why for Suns? Moving Knight and allowing Booker to start should be their go-to move as Booker has a lot of potential and is a better fit next to Bledsoe. In return, they get a solid starting SF who can give them another scorer but at a different position (rather than all of their scoring coming from their backcourt). They also get McLemore who could use a change of scenery and good find some success coming off the bench for them.
PG - Bledsoe / Barbosa / Goodwin / Ulis
SG - Booker / McLemore / Jenkins
SF - Gay / Tucker / Warren
PF - Dudley / Bender / Chriss
C - Chandler / Len
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kings Get: Goran Dragic & Willie Reed
Kings Give: Rudy Gay, Kosta Koufos, & Ben McLemore
Why for Kings? Dragic helps shore up their PG situation while maintaining a good secondary scorer. Dragic is also on a 3 year deal so we don't have to worry about him walking next year.
PG - Dragic / Collison / Cousins
SG - Afflalo / Temple / Patterson
SF - Casspi / Barnes / Richardson
PF - Cauley-Stein / Tolliver / Labissiere
C - Cousins / Reed / Papagiannis
Once again, I think it depends on what type of system your going to run. If the Kings are intent on running something similar to the Princeton offense that they ran when Vlade and Webb were here, then Knight is the better fit. He's better at playing off the ball than Dragic is. However, I'm nit picking a bit. Dragic isn't the ball stopper that Rondo is, so I think he would be capable of adapting to that system. It's just that Knight is already used to playing that way. Kentucky ran the dribble drive system that required ball movement and player movement. Knight is a little better three point shooter, and Dragic has a little better assist to turnover ratio.
I was mote looking at it from the ability to play both ways. Dragic is probably a little more of a traditional PG but not as good defensively as Knight. Both can break teams off the dribble and are sold to good 3 pt shooters.
Given that we have targeted players who are good or scrappy defenders all off-season long, I can see Knight fitting a bit better, especially if as you say we are looking to implement a bit more of the Princeton offense where the PG brings the ball up the court, gives it to the big and plays off him. I do like the fact that Knight is younger and signed up for a longer term which gives us a bit more certainty going forward. He is only 24 so you would think that he is yet to enter his prime basketball years.
Given that we have targeted players who are good or scrappy defenders all off-season long, I can see Knight fitting a bit better, especially if as you say we are looking to implement a bit more of the Princeton offense where the PG brings the ball up the court, gives it to the big and plays off him. I do like the fact that Knight is younger and signed up for a longer term which gives us a bit more certainty going forward. He is only 24 so you would think that he is yet to enter his prime basketball years.
http://nba.nbcsports.com/2016/08/16...-rubio/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Timberwolves owner Glen Taylor said not to expect a Ricky Rubio trade. But Rubio comes up so frequently in trade rumors, and Minnesota just drafted Kris Dunn.
Everyone expects the Timberwolves to shop Rubio eventually.
When they do, the Kings apparently want to talk.
Darren Wolfson of ESPN 1500:
As Glen Taylor said on this podcast a couple episodes ago, Ricky Rubio will start the season with the Wolves. But I can tell you, as I’ve said a number of times, the Sacramento Kings are a team to watch. Vlade Divac, George Karl, now George Karl into Dave Joerger. Keep an eye on the Sacramento Kings if slash when the Wolves decide to make a move on Ricky. But, again, nothing is imminent. Ricky Rubio will be with the Wolves opening night.
So all it says is Kings are interested , but Rudy is not enough, minny is gonna open season with Rubio, so where is the Rumor?
Timberwolves owner Glen Taylor said not to expect a Ricky Rubio trade. But Rubio comes up so frequently in trade rumors, and Minnesota just drafted Kris Dunn.
Everyone expects the Timberwolves to shop Rubio eventually.
When they do, the Kings apparently want to talk.
Darren Wolfson of ESPN 1500:
As Glen Taylor said on this podcast a couple episodes ago, Ricky Rubio will start the season with the Wolves. But I can tell you, as I’ve said a number of times, the Sacramento Kings are a team to watch. Vlade Divac, George Karl, now George Karl into Dave Joerger. Keep an eye on the Sacramento Kings if slash when the Wolves decide to make a move on Ricky. But, again, nothing is imminent. Ricky Rubio will be with the Wolves opening night.
So all it says is Kings are interested , but Rudy is not enough, minny is gonna open season with Rubio, so where is the Rumor?
http://fansided.com/2016/08/16/nba-trade-rumors-sacramento-kings-eyeing-ricky-rubio/
Darren Wolfson of ESPN 1500 said that Rubio might end up getting moved to another Western Conference team: the Sacramento Kings.
Wolfson knows that Rubio will start the season as the Timberwolves’ starting point guard, but when Dunn elevates his play by midseason, Rubio could very well be shipped to lowly Kings of Northern California
Sure, Minnesota will part ways with Rubio when Dunn is ready, but will the Kings have anything of value to offer an on-the-rise Timberwolves team in return? Sacramento has an absurd number of big men, so maybe that’s what Thibodeau will want to help solidify his defense in exchange for Rubio.
how about Koufos and Ben? LOL There is your big men Thibs LOL - What a jerk this John Buhler is! "Sacramento’s decade plus of dysfunction has made them a running joke in NBA circles." Lowly? Really? Bite Me! Buhler!
Darren Wolfson of ESPN 1500 said that Rubio might end up getting moved to another Western Conference team: the Sacramento Kings.
Wolfson knows that Rubio will start the season as the Timberwolves’ starting point guard, but when Dunn elevates his play by midseason, Rubio could very well be shipped to lowly Kings of Northern California
Sure, Minnesota will part ways with Rubio when Dunn is ready, but will the Kings have anything of value to offer an on-the-rise Timberwolves team in return? Sacramento has an absurd number of big men, so maybe that’s what Thibodeau will want to help solidify his defense in exchange for Rubio.
how about Koufos and Ben? LOL There is your big men Thibs LOL - What a jerk this John Buhler is! "Sacramento’s decade plus of dysfunction has made them a running joke in NBA circles." Lowly? Really? Bite Me! Buhler!
1. Decade Plus of dysfunction - Well last season was 2015-2016 go back decade plus 11yr min puts us at 2004-05 Gee We won 50-32 games 2nd in the nba
2. Lowly ? - not a matter of truth more of a nasty adjective used in poor taste -gee there were 7 teams with records as bad as ours - Are they all "Lowly" too?
3 Buhler is a Jerk? sorry I see no basis for any untruth here
2. Lowly ? - not a matter of truth more of a nasty adjective used in poor taste -gee there were 7 teams with records as bad as ours - Are they all "Lowly" too?
3 Buhler is a Jerk? sorry I see no basis for any untruth here
