Where Have All The Roleplayers Gone?

Bricklayer

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
...Long time Pas-sing?

So hopefully most, but unfortunately not all, Kings fans should be feeling a lot better about the team's young star trio post-Smart. Thornton did off and on struggle through the game and a half he had under the new regime, but he also exploded for a 25pt half, so I'm not too worried. And Reke and Cousins have been blowing up. So potentially big steps forward. However the team still has a major problem, namely this:

The "Other" Guys 2011-12

Fredette 24.2min 8.5pts .354FG% Career: N/A (.452 senior yr in college)
Salmons 29.5min 7.7pts .365FG% Career: .440
Hickson- 24.1min 7.0pts .382FG% Career: .491
Thomas- 12.5min 5.8pts .353FG% Career: N/A (.445 senior yr in college)
Thomps- 16.5min 5.8pts .571FG% Career: .492
Hayes__ 25.4min 5.6pts .419FG% Career: .515
Outlaw_ 13.3min 3.2pts .250FG% Career: .427
Greene__ 8.1min 3.1pts .375FG% Career: .405
Garcia_- 12.3min 2.6pts .261FG% Career: .440
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TEAM: .402 (29th in NBA)


The problem speaks for itself. Some have got there because they insist on gunning up one on one shots ala the Big Three, but without their talent. Some have gotten there because they know they are not good enough to create on their own but nobody is creating for them. Some look younger than their years, others look older than their years. Everybody is missing open shots.

3Pt Shooters
Fredette 11-12: .311 Career: N/A (.396 senior yr in college)
Salmons 11-12: .222 Career: .365
Thomas- 11-12: .267 Career: N/A (.349 senior yr in college)
Outlaw_ 11-12: .118 Career: .339
Greene_ 11-12: .267 Career: .319
Garcia_- 11-12: .231 Career: .366
------------------------
TEAM: .280 (26th in NBA)
 
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Our stars have to play consistently in order for our role players to be consistent imo. Cousins is a star on and off the ball, but he's still pretty raw. Nonetheless i think our roleplayers know what to expect from Cousins. Thornton is a scoring role player which isnt bad considering he's our 3rd option right now. Still raw, and seems to have tunnel vision at times. But our role players seem to know what he's going to do when he gets the ball. Reke has flashes but he needs to be more confident if he wants to be a star. He's the toughest one imo to predict. How are our roleplayers going to get consistent if they dont know what he's going to do. It's not particularly inspiring when he's supposed to be one of our best players, and he goes invisible for certain stretches of games. On offense that is.

My point is until all of our 3 main guys start playing consistently, our roleplayers will find their role and know what to expect.
 
Westphal's biggest failing here in Sacramento has long been understood to be the definition of roles. And when I say roles, I mean clear cut, as in X is the #1 option, Y is the #2 option, Z needs to spot up and defend, etc. Thus, when you put a boatload of natural gunners on the same team, and don't have a coach defining a clear role for them, what are they going to do? They are going to GUN. Its obvious.

Smart's challenge is washing all of these gunners (Jimmer, IT, Salmons, Hickson; thats 40% of our 10 man rotation!) free of their natural desire to create their own offense. Thats why you see so much confusion so often, when a guy gets an open shot off of Reke/Cousins, they hesitate, put the ball on the floor, and try to do what they've always done. Not to mention instead of finding the truly talented playmakers on the floor, when a play breaks down, they play hero ball. Its not selfishness, its their natural inclination. Its been that way their whole careers.

My solution would be to put all of those guys on the bench and bring out the guys who you know will bust their butts on defense, take shots only when the opportunity is right, and play well off the ball. I'm talking about Donte and JT. The starting lineup needs to be IT (more confident than Jimmer right now, at least until THornton gets back)/Reke/Greene/Thompson (until Hayes gets back)/Cousins. Putting Jimmer/Salmons/Hickson off the bench lets them be their own creative selves off the bench instead of forcing square pegs into round holes.

I don't envy Smart's position. Salmons is a vet and a known pouter off the bench. There is significant hype with Jimmer. We traded a first rounder for Hickson. Benching these guys will take guts and needs to be handled with finesse and care. But it needs to be done because without some kind of emphasis on guys who do things well other than create their own shot next to Reke and Demarcus, this team will never succeed.
 
A lack of play making for guys who can't find shots for them self explains some of it. It could also be that Salmons, Outlaw, and Garcia are just washed up at this point. Still it's hard to fully explain shooting that bad.
 
On paper I think their role players are sufficient. Once the "stars" start playing better, the team starts to get more organized, etc. I'd be surprised if that doesn't trickle down to the role players improving as well.
 
As far as shooting goes, yep. Not looking good. I pointed this out in another thread, albeit in a less organized manner.

It might be useful to add career percentages to the regular shooting (like you did for 3PT%), but other than that, the numbers speak for themselves. Nobody is shooting well. Most are shooting far worse than they are capable. Good shots seem to be happening at a decent pace but still aren't falling. Hopefully either the hex gets lifted or we figure out how to work our way out of the slump.
 
It has everything to do with the kind of shots they're taking. It's like every player has turned into that catch, dribble, dribble shoot assist killer that Beno was last year. When you don't shoot it quickly defenses know they have an extra few feet to play off of their man. The only answer is a coach that puts guys in the right places and tells them what to do, if that happens and these guys start recognizing the open shots, those percentages will climb. You're starting to see guys turn down open shots or delay for a half of a second because they seem like they're in shock that they are open.
 
The roleplayers are not looking good. Salmons and Outlaw are the worst. Greene is not too far off. One would hope the rookies will come around. Barbosa looked great in Toronto as did Miller in Denver. Why can't the Kings have a solid Vet who can score the ball? Oh yes, they won't sign here:(

KB
 
dear god those stats are like acid on my iris's .. take them down!!! dear lord son of a mother duck!

We should look to trade every one of those players for defensive role players that can pass and knock down an open shot.

Keep Cousins,Tyreke,Thornton, IT.

I'm a Jimmer fan but i'd be willing to give him up for defense.
 
As has been mentioned previously, shooting percentages are in freefall around the league. Much of this can be attributed to infrequent practices and shootarounds because of the condensed schedule.

As for the lack of roleplayers, well, we are a very young team. Other than Salmons, Outlaw, Garcia, and Hayes, the rest of the team is still growing and still getting to know each other. It's tough to go to 22 and 23 year old professional ballers who have always been the best guys on their teams and tell them "You are pick-setter guy. Do that and nothing else." It's the best thing for the team and the reality of the game, but we shouldn't be surprised to see any of the youngsters forcing up garbage, attempting to prove that they deserve to be on the team. They will settle down, probably by the end of the season if Smart is worth his salary.

Donte seems to relish the idea of being corner three and long defender guy. For team purposes that's promising, at least.
 
While I don't think that group of role-players are very good to begin with, I think they will end up playing better as the season progresses once Smart gets them to start playing his system. If they really do start running more the percentages should go up a lot because guys will be getting more layups and dunks. Early on in the season most of the shots these guys got were under heavy duress so it's not surprising the numbers are down (except for Salmons -- that guy couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat!).
 
Hadlowe said:
As has been mentioned previously, shooting percentages are in freefall around the league. Much of this can be attributed to infrequent practices and shootarounds because of the condensed schedule.

As for the lack of roleplayers, well, we are a very young team. Other than Salmons, Outlaw, Garcia, and Hayes, the rest of the team is still growing and still getting to know each other. It's tough to go to 22 and 23 year old professional ballers who have always been the best guys on their teams and tell them "You are pick-setter guy. Do that and nothing else." It's the best thing for the team and the reality of the game, but we shouldn't be surprised to see any of the youngsters forcing up garbage, attempting to prove that they deserve to be on the team. They will settle down, probably by the end of the season if Smart is worth his salary.

Donte seems to relish the idea of being corner three and long defender guy. For team purposes that's promising, at least.
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The fact that he's actually rebounding this year makes me okay with this.
 
RookieOfTheDay said:
On paper I think their role players are sufficient. Once the "stars" start playing better, the team starts to get more organized, etc. I'd be surprised if that doesn't trickle down to the role players improving as well.
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I tend to agre, ROTD. while most of those poor shooting stats for the "role players" came from a period when the big three couldn't be consistent. When our best become consistent I think the rest will follow or at least improve.
 
OptimusRhyme said:
dear god those stats are like acid on my iris's .. take them down!!! dear lord son of a mother duck!

We should look to trade every one of those players for defensive role players that can pass and knock down an open shot.

Keep Cousins,Tyreke,Thornton, IT.

I'm a Jimmer fan but i'd be willing to give him up for defense.
Click to expand...

Maybe defense is improving faster than these shooting percentages, at least I hope so. None of out guys are over the (shooting) hill. Once it calms down a little and our young stars become more consistent producers, defense and shooting improvements will follow.
 
GP seems to like scorers who cant shoot. If he went out to get players whose role is to "jack and miss 3pt shots", then mission accomplished.

Kind of why I wish we went for Leonard this past draft, dude has glue guy written all over him (and while Jimmer stinks it up over here, Leonard is now starting and playing heavy minutes for the Spurs, with coach Pop stating that he can "be their new Bowen").

ANYWAYS....With Worstphool's firing, I'm a bit more optimistic about the future. I'm thinking we didnt have roleplayers because this team didnt have roles. ISO ISO ISO!!!
 
How much do we attribute this to a compressed season? Anyone feel up to compiling some more of these numbers from around the league? :p

Even with this season's schedule being a contributing factor to the low %, its more likely a mental issue with our "roleplayers". This means we not only have the potential to get better, but we are already better than our record suggests.

I've always liked JT and I think he should be our starting power forward. He has shown nothing but proffesionalism and a willingness to be a roleplayer. I've noticed he has made huge strides with MOST of the problems that have plagued him since his rookie season. Unforunately I cannot say the same thing about Donte. I feel that Donte has too much to prove and is not able to just be a roleplayer. He will always want to be a scorer and we already have enough spark off the bench.

Trading either Salmons or Donte should be the next step. They are both good defenders, can hit an open 3, but neither are good roleplayers. I'd rather keep Donte for the rebounding and team chemistry.
 
IMHO, the compressed season, legacy of Westphal, 7 new players, and no real set plays until Coach Smart came aboard is the crux of the "role player" issue. Now with so many games so quickly, there has been virtually no practice time to begin to correct the problem and establish role players. Like it or not, we have to cool it for awhile and let Coach Smarts "smarts" begin to get implemented. Almost all NBA players likes to know where they need to be for basic sets and plays and where the others should be as well. The Kings have not had that benefit and are only now beginning to get the inputs. It takes time folks. And with 2 rookies as the only real PGs and off the bench it will take a bit longer. The pieces are there. When the sets and plays come in everyone can stop pushing so much to try to make shots from anywhere at anytime.
 
For whatever reason, bad shooting seems to be contagious. Don't know why for sure, but maybe its because when one player is shooting badly, the other players try and make up for it, and therefore press, and start shooting badly as well. How many games have you seen where the first few freethrows are missed, and then everyone starts missing. All I know, is that there are guys that are career decent to good shooters that are all shooting badly right now. I'd like to attribute it to taking bad shots, and there is some of that. But were missing wide open shots as well. When a good outside shooter starts missing for a period of time (slump), its usually because they've either developed a hitch in their shot, or they're pressing instead of being relaxed and just shooting the ball.

I hate to say it, but the best way for a good shooter to come out of a slump, is to keep shooting the ball. Work on it between games, but in the game, if you have an open shot, you take it. The worse thing a good shooter can have is a conscience and a memory.
 
While overall our shooting has been poor, it is still too early in the season to completely give up on these guys especially with the much talked about shortened pre-season, etc.

Here is something a little interesting to chew on:

From Brick's post above about 3 pt % compared to career stats I wondered how far off they really are from their career average since the season is so young and they have such few attempts.

What I found surprised me.

Fredette 11-12: .311 Career: N/A (.396 senior yr in college)

If he had made 3.82 of those misses, or just 4 more makes, he would be at (actually above) his career average. Difference between those 2 averages is less than 4 baskets total for the year.


Salmons 11-12: .222 Career: .365

If he had made 5.14 of those misses, or just 6 more makes, he would be at (actually above) his career average. Difference between those 2 averages is less than 6 baskets total for the year.


Thomas- 11-12: .267 (really .333) Career: N/A (.349 senior yr in college)

If he had made .376 of those misses, or just 1 more make, he would be at (actually above) his career average. Difference between those 2 averages is less than 1 basket total for the year.


Outlaw_ 11-12: .118 Career: .339

If he had made 3.763 of those misses, or just 4 more makes, he would be at (actually above) his career average. Difference between those 2 averages is less than 4 baskets total for the year.


Greene_ 11-12: .267 Career: .319

If he had made .785 of those misses, or just 1 more make, he would be at (actually above) his career average. Difference between those 2 averages is less than 1 basket total for the year.


Garcia_- 11-12: .231 Career: .366

If he had made 1.758 of those misses, or just 2 more make, he would be at (actually above) his career average. Difference between those 2 averages is less than 2 baskets total for the year.



Sobering, huh? :)
 
Fireplug said:
Sobering, huh? :)
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I think we can expect Fredette, Garcia, and Salmons to start hitting their shots. As baja wrote, there seems to be a team psychology or something of that nature that goes with shooting. If anyone starts hitting, it is likely the rest will start hitting.

I don't think anyone would be surprised that these guys have had a lot on their minds other than shooting a basketball.
 
Glenn said:
I think we can expect Fredette, Garcia, and Salmons to start hitting their shots. As baja wrote, there seems to be a team psychology or something of that nature that goes with shooting. If anyone starts hitting, it is likely the rest will start hitting.

I don't think anyone would be surprised that these guys have had a lot on their minds other than shooting a basketball.
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In that vein, Donte could, for all we know, have one of his patented streaks of insanity where he scores 20 in a quarter and can't miss to bring his average back up.
 
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