What you see is what you get.......

[CruzDude]

Too many fans seem to place all the blame on the vets for the lousy season last year. I put 80% of the blame on Musselman. The vets had stability under Adelman (we and he needed a change, but that is a different story) and knew their roles, but not under Musselman. Rookies and 1-2 year guys need to know exactly what is their role and what is expected of them. My view was tha neither of those to critical items existed last year.

Sure we have a bunch of vets and some possible dead wood (KT, SAR mainly) but the vets world changed 100% last year and they appeared to have no direction. My excitement, and the spouse's as well, is wanting to see what new Coach T can do, especially with the new blood that can get up and down and rebound.

No, this year promises much more than any of the the last 2-3 years.

 

[VF21]

repeated mistaken assumption made on here btw.

Essentially Muss has become a boogeyman, so that in the face of rampant incompetence and inaction from the front office, we merely blame all the woes of the team, and likely world, on Muss, and make him ito the worst of everything. That way all we have to do is replace him and its magic! Woohoo!

While I follow what you're saying and I'm not proposing replacing Muss will solve all our woes, I do think Musselman WAS a boogeyman. He lost the respect of the team before the season even got underway, regardless of the public "togetherness" they showed. Then, once the season began, it became more and more obvious all those slides and notebooks were not going to help him because he had the people skills of road kill.

His substitution patterns defy description; his stubbornness could rank right up there with that of a Georgia mule.

He simply didn't bring what a lot of us hoped he would bring, and I think I even recall you - before his hiring - predicting it could end up that way.

One good thing Musselman might have done is get the Maloofs to step back just a little from the basketball ops part of MSE. Their fingerprints were all over a couple of things and none of them went well...

I do agree that Reggie's arrival isn't going to magically double anyone's scoring averages but I do have the firm belief his presence and the resulting change in attitude and environment could have a definable positive effect.

 

[dude12]

While I follow what you're saying and I'm not proposing replacing Muss will solve all our woes, I do think Musselman WAS a boogeyman. He lost the respect of the team before the season even got underway, regardless of the public "togetherness" they showed. Then, once the season began, it became more and more obvious all those slides and notebooks were not going to help him because he had the people skills of road kill.

I do agree that Reggie's arrival isn't going to magically double anyone's scoring averages but I do have the firm belief his presence and the resulting change in attitude and environment could have a definable positive effect.

Exactly!! Relating to the players may be the most important characteristic of an NBA head coach. Apparently Muss has failed twice now with 2 different organizations. X's and O's are important as is organization and attention to detail but if your players don't buy in to the head coach.....well, we know what happens. I'm guessing that Theus' people skills will be better.

Rick Adelman's strength is probably his ability to get along with the players and a wide range of personalities. Hope theus can do the same.

 

[Gary]

Wow.. Petrie just gave us another year to look forward to..


This just sucks.. We STILL have no identity. We are not young. We are not old...

If Petrie cannot get rid of KT, SAR, Miller, or Artest I say we bench Miller, play Artest, but limited minutes.. Buyout SAR, and KT..

We can still come out of this summer if the right players are played this year as havin that "young/rebuilding" look..

C - Hawes/Miller - This will give us a youthful look at center w/ veteran backup..

PF - Moore/Williams - This will give us a energetic PF who has the size to compete at this position, plus a youngster who can come in and play some D, and rebound the ball. Also give us some interior D.

SF - Artest/Garcia - An Artest-Garcia SF rotation is a good one. I prefer Artest gone w/ Garcia starting, but if Artest is here I am OK with it. At least we will have some kind of lock down D rotation at this position.

SG - Martin/Salmons - Another position we are fine. Salmons is a good bench player, and Martin is a great scorer who is actually about average defensively so we are losing anything on the other end of the floor.

PG - Bibby/Douby-Shakur-Salmons-Garcia - After Bibby we have a bunch of guys come in who cannot play pure PG except Shakur.. And he is a rookie.... UNDRAFTED lol.. So this year I see the Kings picking a PG in the lottery..


So people.. Technically we can have a youthful team as long as we play Hawes, Williams, Martin, Garcia, and Douby.. If Shakur pans out as a backup PG than all the better. I really hope Theus sees this and gets these boys some PT.. We are not goign to compete for a PO spot so might as well.

I predict 25-30 wins.

 

[Kingster]

Well, it looks like there's nothing to wait for, unless you count the mid-season trade deadline. Terrible, terrible summer. I'm hearing through the grapevine that ticket sales are waaay down. Big surprise. I would have notified every team in the league that Artest is going to be traded and that if interested they had a week to give it their best shot. Then I would have taken the best deal. That is market value. Saying you're not going to take crappy offers on Artest is like saying you want the same value on your house as two years ago. Good luck.

 

[Superman]

I don't know. I'm still not sold on the "Geoff Petrie is useless" train of thought. I'm not happy with the team, or what we've done this offseason, but realistically speaking I don't know what else we could have done that would make us significantly better, either talent-wise or cap-wise.

We improved by getting rid of Musselman, but did we get better with Theus? We'll know in April.

I assume Petrie's strategy had something to do with trying to move up in the Draft, which is pretty hard to do in the NBA, so that didn't work given our current "assets".

What ticked me off, though, is not the lack of action, though that is troubling. What concerns me most is the Mikki Moore signing, not for it's merits alone, but for what it may represent. Geoff says "we won't be giving out any MLE contracts for middling players, we're going to concentrate on getting under the cap for the 2009 off-season," and then he goes out and does exactly what he said he wouldn't do. Now I know Geoff can be a cryptic person and he plays it pretty close to the vest, but come on. That bothers me.

And as I said in an older thread, I am concerned that this mess we are in is either due to Geoff's inability to rebuild a team, or it's due to the Maloof's handcuffing him and not allowing him to do his job. Either way, the team isn't getting any better, and we are going to have to something about the GM position soon, and there are no better options out there right now.

Either way, get ready for another lame 35 win season. That's what we're going to have with the "talent" we currently have on the roster. What could be worse, though, is guys like Bibby and Miller playing their hearts out for the sake of their careers, and we wind up with a 41 win season, pushing us further down in the Draft, and still miss the playoffs.

 

[LPKingsFan]

What could be worse, though, is guys like Bibby and Miller playing their hearts out for the sake of their careers, and we wind up with a 41 win season, pushing us further down in the Draft, and still miss the playoffs.

If that happens, and they get their trade value out of the toilet, Geoff better be on the phones for some promising youth and picks.

 

[Superman]

If that happens, and they get their trade value out of the toilet, Geoff better be on the phones for some promising youth and picks.

Then we make some deadline deals, and we go from being on pace for 40+ wins and fighting to make the playoffs, to our season "apparently" going down the toilet, to the casual observer.

That would be the ideal course to follow, though. If we could shed Miller's contract, then that makes it easier to deal with the SAR and KT contracts, though I still want to see those gone more than anything.

 

[dude12]

I would have notified every team in the league that Artest is going to be traded and that if interested they had a week to give it their best shot. Then I would have taken the best deal. That is market value.

Yeah....we'd be much better off by doing things this way.

 

[SacTownKid]

Your pessimist may be correct, although we will see.

But he would also be missing the obvious -- we didn't actually gain any size/length. Or at least none that actually plays like size/length. You could have an 8ft tall player out there, but if he grabbed 3rebs a game and blocked less than a shot it would be of marginal utility. The whole point of size is to be able to do things that normally only very big people are able to do -- rebound, block shots, intimidate around the rim, don't allow people to shoot over you etc. Justin can do that, but his prospects for significant minutes look very poor at this time with 4 contracted vets ahead of him as well as a lottery pick. Hawes is 19, was a lousy rebounder and insignificant shotblocker in college, and repeated that performance in summer league. He should be able to score inside, but then so can Reef and so could Corliss, and you can see how many wins that adds once its divorced from rebounding and defense.

And then there is our big FA acquisition. A 32 year old man coming off a career year in a contract year. Big flashing warning lights may go up now. And his numbers during the banner year:

19.7min 9.1pts 3.3reb 0.6ast 0.4stl 0.2blk 1.4TO

Oh wait, damn....those were Corliss's numbers. My bad, I meant:

25.2min 9.9pts 5.0reb 1.4ast 0.7stl 0.5blk 1.5TO

Oh...

Crap, those were Shareef's numbers! Damnit! I really meant:

26.4min 9.8pts 5.1reb 0.9ast 0.6stl 0.8blk 1.4TO

Yeah, that's the ticket. Obviously changes everything.

In all fairness Moore put up those numbers from a true role player standpoint. The others were more option types that sort of highlighted as #1 options at times bogging down the offense with one on one play.

 

[Kingster]

Yeah....we'd be much better off by doing things this way.

It's amazing to me that someone would be quizzical about unloading insanity.

 

[dude12]

It's amazing to me that someone would be quizzical about unloading insanity.

Your overexaggerating the Artest situation. If you start "unloading" guys at far below market value, then you get a reputation for being an easy mark. Despite what some of the fellow members of the forum think, Petrie is no fool. He's not an easy mark. He's patient and waits for the right deal to come along. If he unloaded Bibby and Artest for crap, then you would be unhappy with the guy for making below market trades.

What this is is the beginning of a rebuilding era. You may not agree with what he's doing but you can't grade him on the rebuild until its complete.

 

[CruzDude]

One piece of deadwood??

What you see is what you get also applies to off-season workouts by players in the practice facility. And nearly the entire team is at the practice facility as Sam Amick wrote on Sunday 9/16. He also stated that Quincy Douby ".. is working his butt off" to play both guard positions as new Coach T wants. But the last sentence in Sam's article sorta supports one piece of deadwood the Kings have to deal with:

"We've had everybody in (practice facility) except Kenny (Thomas) and John (Salmons), and they've been coming in consistently," Theus said. "I think that builds immediate camaraderie that's necessary. "

 

[Kingster]

Your overexaggerating the Artest situation. If you start "unloading" guys at far below market value, then you get a reputation for being an easy mark. Despite what some of the fellow members of the forum think, Petrie is no fool. He's not an easy mark. He's patient and waits for the right deal to come along. If he unloaded Bibby and Artest for crap, then you would be unhappy with the guy for making below market trades.

What this is is the beginning of a rebuilding era. You may not agree with what he's doing but you can't grade him on the rebuild until its complete.

The NBA market has had 3 months to determine market value for Artest. There is no, "if you are 'unloading' guys at far below market value." That's ridiculous.

 

[AriesMar27]

The NBA market has had 3 months to determine market value for Artest. There is no, "if you are 'unloading' guys at far below market value." That's ridiculous.

the only way that we can get rid of artest is to take back a hideous contract... but since artest makes so little we would have to package him with one of our bad contracts...

though its longer than what we want id be down for trading artest and thomas to denver for kenyon martin and jr smith... martins contract is 1 year longer than thomas' but atleast we would get rid of thomas. im not the biggest fan of martins unless he's playing with jason kidd but he is a good rebounder... if he has any athleticism left he'd be a better starting pf than what we have right now... and if he gets injured again hawes, williams and moore will just take his minutes...

and we get jr smith... he's a bonehead but damn can that boy throw it down...

 

[VF21]

though its longer than what we want id be down for trading artest and thomas to denver for kenyon martin and jr smith... martins contract is 1 year longer than thomas' but atleast we would get rid of thomas. im not the biggest fan of martins unless he's playing with jason kidd but he is a good rebounder.

Okay, I'm gonna try really hard not to be disrespectful, but are you out of your freaking mind?



We trade KT away for someone whose contract lasts a year longer just to get another headcase as a replacement for Artest?

Sorry, dude, that doesn't make even the beginning of a hint of a smattering of sense.

 

[CruzDude]

I think KingsFans have to face up to reality. Ron Ron isn't going anywhere and maybe not for a few years if new Coach T gets the vets to buy into his style and his roles for everyone. Ron Ron can be candidate for Defensive Player of the year under the right guidance and buying into the new coaches philosophy. That can be the leadership we can hope for outta Ron Ron, lead by defensive demonstration. Leave the ball handling to the ball handlers.

Jury is out on Brad so lets wait and see a week or two into pre-season. Bibbs IMHO becomes the big mystery man. If he gets pushed by the kids thru training camp then, well who knows, if he gets outplayed and outdefended by one of the kids then according to new Coach T, the better defender (and more consistent, my comment) will get the playing time. That should be the interesting element of training camp. I don't think Bibbs can step up the defense anymore than what we've seen the past years.

 

[VF21]

CruzDude -I think you're gonna have to abandon the "Coach T" moniker for Reggie, with or without the "new". "Coach T" has been used for so long to refer to Tom Abatemarco of the Monarchs that I have to stop every time I see "new Coach T" and remember you're not talking about Abatemarco.

http://www.kingsfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19868

Theus has always been Reggie to me and I don't think I'm going be changing.

 

[CruzDude]

Yeah, your right!! Coach Reggie it is!! I used it once to solve the confusion with a friend then forgot. Coach Reggie I like ! And how different the two people are, eh? Gotta love another actor making it big in California!!

 

[HndsmCelt]

Personally about as friendly as I am willing to get abou him is to abreviate New Coach Guy - NCG.

 

[CruzDude]

Following the original vein of this thread "what you see is what you get", today (Sun 9/23) a Miami article talked about a deal that was on the table (and went nowhere) between the Kings and the Heat (Bibbs for our original JWill/White Chocolate plus Haslem plus draft choice(s)) and lamented that they could not get Ron Ron based on a Kings comment (not named) that Ron Ron will be here in the fall and was not available.

That then pretty much puts to bed any deals for Bibbs for the forseeable future and likely until December.

To me, Ron Ron is more valuable to the current Kings and what they need to do than is Bibbs. This has nothing to do with either one being better than the other, it has to do with the hand the Kings have dealt themselves a week before training camp opens and who can contribute from the get-go under a new, agressive coach. For the 7th or 8th time, if Coach Reggie can get Ron Ron to buy into the new program and be the defensive stopper, and Keving continues as the 22+ ppg scorer and we find who will be the 15-20 a night 2nd and 3rd scorers that are needed so badly. Bibbs would only take away time from the young guys who now need to step up: Cisco, QD, Watkins/Williams, Salmons/Shakur, etc.

 

[Bricklayer]

Following the original vein of this thread "what you see is what you get", today (Sun 9/23) a Miami article talked about a deal that was on the table (and went nowhere) between the Kings and the Heat (Bibbs for our original JWill/White Chocolate plus Haslem plus draft choice(s)) and lamented that they could not get Ron Ron based on a Kings comment (not named) that Ron Ron will be here in the fall and was not available.

That then pretty much puts to bed any deals for Bibbs for the forseeable future and likely until December.

To me, Ron Ron is more valuable to the current Kings and what they need to do than is Bibbs. This has nothing to do with either one being better than the other, it has to do with the hand the Kings have dealt themselves a week before training camp opens and who can contribute from the get-go under a new, agressive coach. For the 7th or 8th time, if Coach Reggie can get Ron Ron to buy into the new program and be the defensive stopper, and Keving continues as the 22+ ppg scorer and we find who will be the 15-20 a night 2nd and 3rd scorers that are needed so badly. Bibbs would only take away time from the young guys who now need to step up: Cisco, QD, Watkins/Williams, Salmons/Shakur, etc.

Ron continues to be the player most directly in the way of the young guys. Specifically Cisco, but by extension Douby as well since Ron's presence forces extra Cisco minutes to come from OG as well as SF, thus eating inot those OG miunutes for Douby.

Neither should interfere much if any with Justin or Watkins (if he even makes the team). But if either did it would clearly be Ron again in a smallball swing to PF.

And neither guy belongs on this team. And as suspected, what makes them unmoveable is not the rest of the league, its Geoff, who is so far ahead of the rest of the league that he is brilliantly pioneering the theory that the veteran core of a 33win team is a valuable keepsake.

 

[John Galt]

Brick are you trying to say, in so many words, in a roundabout way, in a manner of speaking, subtly, that you're dissatisfied with how Geoff has conducted business this summer?

 

[Rockmeister]

Brick are you trying to say, in so many words, in a roundabout way, in a manner of speaking, subtly, that you're dissatisfied with how Geoff has conducted business this summer?

This cracked me up.

 

[ninjabiscuit]

Ron continues to be the player most directly in the way of the young guys. Specifically Cisco, but by extension Douby as well since Ron's presence forces extra Cisco minutes to come from OG as well as SF, thus eating inot those OG miunutes for Douby.

Neither should interfere much if any with Justin or Watkins (if he even makes the team). But if either did it would clearly be Ron again in a smallball swing to PF.

And neither guy belongs on this team. And as suspected, what makes them unmoveable is not the rest of the league, its Geoff, who is so far ahead of the rest of the league that he is brilliantly pioneering the theory that the veteran core of a 33win team is a valuable keepsake.

Given the special circumstances involving both of these players (Bibby's off year and Ron's general...uh, issues), is it possible that Geoff didn't see a deal that he liked for either of them? And if that's the case, are you saying that he should have taken garbage in return? There have been two (2) deals that I have read about on these boards that sounded decent, maybe: (a) David Lee and some other stuff for Artest, and (b) Drew Gooden and some other stuff for Bibby.

That's it.

Obviously there are a lot of trades bandied about that we aren't aware of, but isn't it possible that Geoff didn't make any moves because he didn't like anything that was offered in return? Why does this have to be Geoff Petrie's fault? This is exactly the kind of thinking that lead to Adelman's departure...we aren't winning enough, and no one's doing anything, so let's make a knee-jerk decision that makes things worse.

 

[dude12]

Given the special circumstances involving both of these players (Bibby's off year and Ron's general...uh, issues), is it possible that Geoff didn't see a deal that he liked for either of them? And if that's the case, are you saying that he should have taken garbage in return?
That's it.

Obviously there are a lot of trades bandied about that we aren't aware of, but isn't it possible that Geoff didn't make any moves because he didn't like anything that was offered in return? Why does this have to be Geoff Petrie's fault? This is exactly the kind of thinking that lead to Adelman's departure...we aren't winning enough, and no one's doing anything, so let's make a knee-jerk decision that makes things worse.

Yes...he continues to want garbage in return apparently.

It's not Petrie's fault but rather the way he goes about business. If he gives in to taking crap deals then he becomes a GM who will be labeled by other GM's as a guy you have to wait out to get a better deal for their franchise.

A well-written post by ninja-biscuit!!!