What to do with Bagley?

What should we do with Bagley?

  • Give him big development minutes to best guide our course this summer

  • Play him in the hopes somebody will trade *something* for him

  • Give him minor rotation minutes, let him walk this summer

  • Bench him entirely, let him walk this summer

  • Just cut him now

Results are only viewable after voting.
Kingster said:
Giving a guy like Bagley minutes for salary cap reasons, not because his play is worth a sh**, would be so typical of this inept organization. Great message to send to guys on the team who still have some pride and integrity. Makes me sick.
Click to expand...
The suggestion was that he is NOT getting minutes because of cap implications.
 
funkykingston said:
Rebuilding with draft picks is pretty much the only way a small market team has a chance. The problems for the Kings are that (1) they've blown far too many picks and other than Bagley (another blown pick) they haven't been bad enough to have any other top 3 picks despite being awful for over a decade and a half.

If the Kings could trade Fox for Simmons and Holmes for Turner I'd be on board with it. You'd need more team focus on rebounding but

C Turner
PF Simmons
SF Barnes
SG Hali
PG Mitchell

is a strong defensive team with enough shooting to make up for Simmons. Swap Mitchell for Buddy if you need additional spacing/shooting.

But I don't know that either of those trades is realistic. Fox's value has dropped with his poor play to start this season and I'm not sure why Indiana would want a center that's a worse fit next to Sabonis, even if the price tag is cheaper.

Either way, this team needs to increase the overall talent level. Whether they can do that through trades and FA signings I don't know. They certainly should be able to do it through the draft (who wouldn't want Evan Mobley or Scottie Barnes right now - and the Kings were only a few more losses or lottery luck from having either) but that requires not just getting high picks, but making the right ones.
Click to expand...

I don't want to go through this "process" again. We'll continue to waste draft picks until we get a good coach and system in place.

During Geoff/Rick's time, virtually every draft pick was a success. Starting 1995, these were our first round picks

95: Corliss Williamson
96: Peja
97: Tariq Abdul Wahad (Played only two seasons with us)
98: Jason Williams
99: No pick
00: Hedo
01: Gerald Wallace
02: Dan Dickau (Traded to Atlanta)
03: No pick
04: Kevin Martin
05: Cisco
06: Quincy Douby

Jason Williams was the highest at 7. There were 3 other lottery picks (Corliss, Peja, Wahad), while all others were late first rounders.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramento_Kings_draft_history

Needless to say, we did exceedingly well with these picks, scoring with virtually every pick. There can be quibbles about picks (Jason at 7 was not the right pick in retrospect given the careers Dirk and Paul Pierce had, but he was still not a bust, and really helped the team during one phase).

Now compare the performance of the picks since Rick left the organization. We have been consistently picking in the lottery, and some of the initial picks were made by Geoff, who is credited (rightly) for the earlier success. It is important to note though, that we have had virtually no success with our high draft picks since Rick left. Even Cisco and Quincy saw little time with him. Perhaps their career would have been better had they played under him.

Every GM/organization will have hits/misses with picks. That's okay. However, it would be rare to see such exemplary success immediately followed by such extreme level of ineptitude. I think our only few successes have been DMC, IT, and Whiteside. None of the other players we drafted since Rick left have had success with us or any other organization. The book is still open on guys like Fox, Hali, and Davion of course. Fox has had moments, but has still to justify his high draft position and salary.

And it's not just the picks. The vets we hired at that time turned in impressive performance. Remember Jim Jackson? IIRC, he wasn't even playing in the league when we called him due to a spate of injuries, and he turned in an amazing performance. Guys like Bobby, Doug, Brad, all played some of their best ball with us. Contrast that with now, where we are constantly wondering why guys are underperforming with us. I think that except Holmes (and perhaps Shump for his leadership), we have not had players who came in and gave inspired performances.

So, tanking for high draft picks is not much of a solution, IMHO. Even if we draft well, we need to develop those picks into good players which will not happen till we get a solid coach and system in place. Is Gentry the right choice, or Bobby/Becky/some other names being mentioned, or someone who will emerge later. Hopefully Monte knows. However, such extreme incompetence shows a dysfunctional organization, the blame for which lies with Vivek more than anyone. Ultimately, he has to right the ship. Easier said than done though.
 
ShastaKingsFan said:
It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, when they have Maxey going at a high level now. He looks like he might end up being better than Fox and Simmons
Click to expand...

yep the time to do this trade was after summer league when you had a clear idea what you had in Mitchell. But as typical with Monte he waits too long and the opportunity is gone. Dude is bad as Vlade but horrible in a different dimension. Too bad they couldn’t work together. As a single entity, they would be a competent GM.
 
kingsfan101 said:
I don't want to go through this "process" again. We'll continue to waste draft picks until we get a good coach and system in place.

During Geoff/Rick's time, virtually every draft pick was a success. Starting 1995, these were our first round picks

95: Corliss Williamson
96: Peja
97: Tariq Abdul Wahad (Played only two seasons with us)
98: Jason Williams
99: No pick
00: Hedo
01: Gerald Wallace
02: Dan Dickau (Traded to Atlanta)
03: No pick
04: Kevin Martin
05: Cisco
06: Quincy Douby

Jason Williams was the highest at 7. There were 3 other lottery picks (Corliss, Peja, Wahad), while all others were late first rounders.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramento_Kings_draft_history

Needless to say, we did exceedingly well with these picks, scoring with virtually every pick. There can be quibbles about picks (Jason at 7 was not the right pick in retrospect given the careers Dirk and Paul Pierce had, but he was still not a bust, and really helped the team during one phase).

Now compare the performance of the picks since Rick left the organization. We have been consistently picking in the lottery, and some of the initial picks were made by Geoff, who is credited (rightly) for the earlier success. It is important to note though, that we have had virtually no success with our high draft picks since Rick left. Even Cisco and Quincy saw little time with him. Perhaps their career would have been better had they played under him.

Every GM/organization will have hits/misses with picks. That's okay. However, it would be rare to see such exemplary success immediately followed by such extreme level of ineptitude. I think our only few successes have been DMC, IT, and Whiteside. None of the other players we drafted since Rick left have had success with us or any other organization. The book is still open on guys like Fox, Hali, and Davion of course. Fox has had moments, but has still to justify his high draft position and salary.

And it's not just the picks. The vets we hired at that time turned in impressive performance. Remember Jim Jackson? IIRC, he wasn't even playing in the league when we called him due to a spate of injuries, and he turned in an amazing performance. Guys like Bobby, Doug, Brad, all played some of their best ball with us. Contrast that with now, where we are constantly wondering why guys are underperforming with us. I think that except Holmes (and perhaps Shump for his leadership), we have not had players who came in and gave inspired performances.

So, tanking for high draft picks is not much of a solution, IMHO. Even if we draft well, we need to develop those picks into good players which will not happen till we get a solid coach and system in place. Is Gentry the right choice, or Bobby/Becky/some other names being mentioned, or someone who will emerge later. Hopefully Monte knows. However, such extreme incompetence shows a dysfunctional organization, the blame for which lies with Vivek more than anyone. Ultimately, he has to right the ship. Easier said than done though.
Click to expand...

the league is different and a lot of Jeff’s success was being ahead on Europeans entering the league. Two of his best picks were foreign born players. That doesn’t exist anymore. You aren’t getting Peja, Giannis, or Jokic late in the draft. Luka went high for a reason. Giddey failed to fall to us for a reason. Teams are adjusting.
 
sactowndog said:
the league is different and a lot of Jeff’s success was being ahead on Europeans entering the league. Two of his best picks were foreign born players. That doesn’t exist anymore. You aren’t getting Peja, Giannis, or Jokic late in the draft. Luka went high for a reason. Giddey failed to fall to us for a reason. Teams are adjusting.
Click to expand...

I do agree that Geoff was ahead of the game on that count, but he had success with virtually every pick, even late first rounders during Rick era, and since that time, it's been a litany of busts, and underperfoming vets. No reason to believe it will not continue till we identify and fix the issue.
 
kingsfan101 said:
So, tanking for high draft picks is not much of a solution, IMHO
Click to expand...

Even if we once drafted well, the odds are still very clear with the fact that its so much more likely to draft top level talent top 3 compared to 7-10. Its a big statistical difference so if the objective is to get top level talent via draft, then you just have to accept those statistical facts and consider them while forming your strategy moving forward.
 
sactowndog said:
yep the time to do this trade was after summer league when you had a clear idea what you had in Mitchell. But as typical with Monte he waits too long and the opportunity is gone. Dude is bad as Vlade but horrible in a different dimension. Too bad they couldn’t work together. As a single entity, they would be a competent GM.
Click to expand...

No wonder Kings fans can't enjoy anything. They can't see a good exec when it's slapping slapping in the face
 
kingsfan101 said:
I do agree that Geoff was ahead of the game on that count, but he had success with virtually every pick, even late first rounders during Rick era, and since that time, it's been a litany of busts, and underperfoming vets. No reason to believe it will not continue till we identify and fix the issue.
Click to expand...

Petrie was a very good scout of talent and made good picks, when he wasn't handcuffed by the owners. I really believe he would have picked Giannis A if he had been retained as the GM that first year that Ranadive took over. I know that he would have picked Doncic
 
sactowndog said:
the league is different and a lot of Jeff’s success was being ahead on Europeans entering the league. Two of his best picks were foreign born players. That doesn’t exist anymore. You aren’t getting Peja, Giannis, or Jokic late in the draft. Luka went high for a reason. Giddey failed to fall to us for a reason. Teams are adjusting.
Click to expand...
What? Giannis was the 15th pick in 2013, way after every team was scouting world wide.
 
ShastaKingsFan said:
I give him credit for making competent draft picks. We'll see how any strategy plays out over time
Click to expand...
Agreed. I think his talent/draft acquisition has been phenomenal. One of Vlade's big downfalls was he never invested in 2nd round/UDFA guys that could potentially spike and become rotation players down the line. McNair has made that a priority where we now have a pretty decent farm system (King, Metu, Woodard, Ramsey, Queta) of guys who could be something someday. And obviously, I think he's nailed the first round picks getting 2 starters (at a minimum) in Hali/Mitchell with some upside for more.

Moving forward is where he'll make his cheese. He doesn't have Walton not being his coach as a fall-back anymore and it's clear the Vlade core is pretty broken with nearly 2+ seasons of Fox/Buddy/Barnes/Holmes just not clicking for whatever reason and failing to win games. So we'll see if he thinks this core was just being held back by the coach and he ties all his eggs to them, or if we shift into a firesale and expediate a quick rebuild. All 4 of them should get you some solid assets with everyone rebuilding their value pretty solidly over the past year.
 
kingsfan101 said:
I don't want to go through this "process" again. We'll continue to waste draft picks until we get a good coach and system in place.

During Geoff/Rick's time, virtually every draft pick was a success. Starting 1995, these were our first round picks

95: Corliss Williamson
96: Peja
97: Tariq Abdul Wahad (Played only two seasons with us)
98: Jason Williams
99: No pick
00: Hedo
01: Gerald Wallace
02: Dan Dickau (Traded to Atlanta)
03: No pick
04: Kevin Martin
05: Cisco
06: Quincy Douby

Jason Williams was the highest at 7. There were 3 other lottery picks (Corliss, Peja, Wahad), while all others were late first rounders.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramento_Kings_draft_history

Needless to say, we did exceedingly well with these picks, scoring with virtually every pick. There can be quibbles about picks (Jason at 7 was not the right pick in retrospect given the careers Dirk and Paul Pierce had, but he was still not a bust, and really helped the team during one phase).

Now compare the performance of the picks since Rick left the organization. We have been consistently picking in the lottery, and some of the initial picks were made by Geoff, who is credited (rightly) for the earlier success. It is important to note though, that we have had virtually no success with our high draft picks since Rick left. Even Cisco and Quincy saw little time with him. Perhaps their career would have been better had they played under him.

Every GM/organization will have hits/misses with picks. That's okay. However, it would be rare to see such exemplary success immediately followed by such extreme level of ineptitude. I think our only few successes have been DMC, IT, and Whiteside. None of the other players we drafted since Rick left have had success with us or any other organization. The book is still open on guys like Fox, Hali, and Davion of course. Fox has had moments, but has still to justify his high draft position and salary.

And it's not just the picks. The vets we hired at that time turned in impressive performance. Remember Jim Jackson? IIRC, he wasn't even playing in the league when we called him due to a spate of injuries, and he turned in an amazing performance. Guys like Bobby, Doug, Brad, all played some of their best ball with us. Contrast that with now, where we are constantly wondering why guys are underperforming with us. I think that except Holmes (and perhaps Shump for his leadership), we have not had players who came in and gave inspired performances.

So, tanking for high draft picks is not much of a solution, IMHO. Even if we draft well, we need to develop those picks into good players which will not happen till we get a solid coach and system in place. Is Gentry the right choice, or Bobby/Becky/some other names being mentioned, or someone who will emerge later. Hopefully Monte knows. However, such extreme incompetence shows a dysfunctional organization, the blame for which lies with Vivek more than anyone. Ultimately, he has to right the ship. Easier said than done though.
Click to expand...
It has been pointed out that teams like the Blazers and Warriors have consistently picked behind us during the drought, one is a realistic option and the other is a dream scenario. Blazers also blew their best pick and completely tore down and rebuilt with only a few down years.

That said, without going full process, this should be a selling year and we should focus on talent evaluation not Ws.
Should have been last year, but we are where we are. Although I think that the benefit of this year is that Buddy's value should be up and Fox should be on the table.
 
Section 101 said:
What? Giannis was the 15th pick in 2013, way after every team was scouting world wide.
Click to expand...

and Lillard. At least he was brought in for a workout. Ranadive and company didn't even bring in Giannis for a workout, after Petrie went over seas and scouted him...then told Vivek that he should bring him in for a full look. That's incompetence, pride, arrogance, etc
 
pdxKingsFan said:
The suggestion was that he is NOT getting minutes because of cap implications.
Click to expand...

And that's absurd. He doesn't deserve a minute, based on his play. And my suggestion is that you don't add or subtract minutes based on what your freaking accountant is telling you. That's the epitome of a ridiculously run franchise if that would be the case.
 
Kingster said:
And that's absurd. He doesn't deserve a minute, based on his play. And my suggestion is that you don't add or subtract minutes based on what your freaking accountant is telling you. That's the epitome of a ridiculously run franchise if that would be the case.
Click to expand...
It wasn't about our accountant. Did you read the "reports"?

It's that other teams are interested in trading for Bagley if his QO can be kept down to the lower figure, ie if he has low minutes and has gone half the season without starting, his deadline value goes way up.

I think it's all made up BS, but at least understand what is being argued. It's not about saving bucks. It's about how to get the most out of him in trade return.
 
ShastaKingsFan said:
I give him credit for making competent draft picks. We'll see how any strategy plays out over time
Click to expand...

did he? Adding Mitchell is part of the fit problem we have. His job isn’t running a fantasy team. The players on the team have to mesh together as a whole and their skills must complement one another. Clearly that point has been a failure so far.
 
The_Jamal said:
We've done this like 15 times already. Not wasting my time again. You can go back and read any of those interactions why I think Monte is good
Click to expand...

Yep and the data he is poor keeps piling up. Tell me why someone I knew on another team knew Monte was being used in the Laker trade and Monte had no clue?
 
pdxKingsFan said:
It has been pointed out that teams like the Blazers and Warriors have consistently picked behind us during the drought, one is a realistic option and the other is a dream scenario. Blazers also blew their best pick and completely tore down and rebuilt with only a few down years.

That said, without going full process, this should be a selling year and we should focus on talent evaluation not Ws.
Should have been last year, but we are where we are. Although I think that the benefit of this year is that Buddy's value should be up and Fox should be on the table.
Click to expand...

Wiseman and Kuminga????
 
The_Jamal said:
You very well know I feel about your "sources"
Click to expand...

this isn’t a “source” thing. The person told me directly Monte was being played and it turned out to be true. Explain why that is because I told this person no way at the time and I was wrong so let’s see if your explanation was better than mine.
 
Too soon to make a call either way on Monte as far as I’m concerned, but aside from solid drafting he certainly hasn’t wowed me.

Then you have the Vivek problem. Who knows how much he still influences decisions, both directly via meddling, and indirectly via his infatuation with having too many cooks in the FOs kitchen (Dumars).

Just the fact that McNair can draft makes me open to a tank though. You couldn’t even bet on that in the Vlade days, since he was bottom of the barrel in terms of talent scouting (and everything really).
 
miltonap said:
He needs to play. Bagley is extremely talented and by the looks of it someone willing to learn.

Wasn't Brandon Ingram awful under Luke ?

Maybe Luke was horribly mis-managing him ?

Why are we never running pick and roll with Bagley ? I think him and Fox would basically be unstoppable in the pick and roll.

Instead it's the other big that gets the pick and roll opportunities. I get it that the other bigs can't shoot at all but still I think you need to mix it up from time to time.

Is he perfect on defense ? No, but he's trying.
Click to expand...

Does Fox run PNR with anybody?
 
sactowndog said:
Wiseman and Kuminga????
Click to expand...
Are you seriously going to go there and pretend I wasn't talking about the team that won 3/4 championships?
Also note the Kuminga pick came from Minnesota. So they had one down year after 5 straight trips to the finals where Klay and Steph were injured.
 
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