What kind of player do you see Tyreke Evans as, 5+ years from now?

[Kingster]

Many players don't have a "bank off the glass". Tim Duncan is the only one who consistently comes to mind, and given that, I don't know any PGs who would have the need for such a shot. Evans also doesn't have a sky hook. That's a hole in his game then too, I suppose. The only player who had all (all) of what you mentioned seems to be someone like Magic Johnson.

It comes to a point where you're just reaching for things to be angry about. It's established that he needs to be more consistent with his outside shot. Everything else seems like you're just piling on to fan a fire.

Didn't I say "one or two of these holes over the summer"? Yeah, right. I want Tyreke to add every single thing I mention, and not only that I want him to do it over the summer. Can't wait.... Why don't you read the post and try to understand the other side before casting aspersions on a strawman

 

[mr. moustache]

Indeed. He's devastating with his right hand, so devastating he'll contort his body every which way to finish with his right.

He needs something in the mid-range, a stop n' pop, or more likely, a floater would be great.

His set 3pt shot is fine as far as I'm concerned. It could be better, but he'll make 35-40% of those open 3pt shots.

I wish he and Cousins could perfect the pick and pop.

 

[Bricklayer]

I've already elaborated and specified in several posts, as have many others. It's not a secret. It's really only a secret if others don't want to know.

Apparently now the debate has degraded to semantics - one giant hole vs several small holes (that make the one giant hole)... Maybe the one giant hole is the generalized term, "shot", and the smaller holes are: lack of a left hand, a floater, a consistent 3 pt shot when wide open, lack of a post up game, no bank off the glass, no pull up shot on the fast break. Those are the smaller holes that make up the big hole. And that doesn't end it because there are other non-shooting holes like moving without the ball and running a pick and roll, etc. It would be nice if next summer Tyreke fills one or two of these holes so that his game isn't so one-dimensional.

I might as well say that Steve Nash isn't just a poor rebounder, he's a poor offensive rebounder, a poor defensive rebounder, poor at blocking out, physically weak and has bad hands, hence he's a poor overall player. Just silly. Just how much basketball do you watch? Who exactly does all of that at Reke's age? Or any age? And does all of the other things Reke does? I don't think Jordan did all of that.

If you want to say Reke has low skill level compared to Jojo McPerfect, the mythical God of All That is Basketball, fine. So does everybody else. Back in rational land he's one of the best rounded of all the flawed non-Jojo McPerfect young players in the game.

 

[Kingster]

I might as well say that Steve Nash isn't just a poor rebounder, he's a poor offensive rebounder, a poor defensive rebounder, poor at blocking out, physically weak and has bad hands, hence he's a poor overall player. Just silly. Just how much basketball do you watch? Who exactly does all of that at Reke's age? Or any age? And does all of the other things Reke does? I don't think Jordan did all of that.

If you want to say Reke has low skill level compared to Jojo McPerfect, the mythical God of All That is Basketball, fine. So does everybody else. Back in rational land he's one of the best rounded of all the flawed non-Jojo McPerfect young players in the game.

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[RookieOfTheDay]

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If all this straw on this board ever caught fire you'd be able to see the flames from Anaheim.

 

[Bricklayer]

I don't think anyone is talking about an 18 footer off the glass from the wing, like Duncan. I've pointed out Reke lack of use of the glass, and what I was referring to since I can't speak for anyone else, is a floater/runner using the glass on the drives from an angle, when you can't get all the way to the hoop.

Many pg's have used that, when 5-8ft too far for a layup. Rose has it. GP had it. Nash has it. Parker has it. Billups has it. CP3 had it on display last night. Just basically referring to a runner/floater from the angle where using the glass is a higher % shot.

Similar to this, except using it in the halfcourt rather than transition

More examples for anyone who cares, of what Reke needs to add

One of the reasons those PGs had that shot was because they COUDLN'T do what Reke does, which is to say get all the way to the rim consistently (size is often an issue for most PGs). So while it would certainly be a useful thing for Reke to have, let's not talk about it like there have been these mythical PGs running aorund who could devastate you all the way to the rim, oh and also took the time to devlop a top floater just for the hell of it. For most of them its an either/or. Would love to dominate to the rim, but if I'm not capable of that, I gotta find another way.

Its much like the left hand boondoggle. Many of us on this board have a more useful left hand than Reke...and yet he would kick the living crap out of anyone here if we played him. Destroy us. So again its the same thing. Having a left to have a left is irrelevant. Its a good thing to have for most of us because it opens up doors that we can't open otherwise. If those doors are largely just open, you can get places on the floor that 95% of your compatriots cannot, all done with one hand, it becomes a minor issue. He would be better with a left. But with a right alone he accomplishes more with the ball than all but a handful of ambidextrous sorts. Some people are just naturally very right (or left) hand dominant. If your coordination with your right hand rates 100, and your coordination with your left hand rates 50, you might be better off letting the right sub for the left rather than fumbling about with a weak hand.

 

[Dime Dropper]

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You make silly posts, and your only response to refutations is to whinge and cry about strawman. Stop trolling.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

You make silly posts, and your only response to refutations is to whinge and cry about strawman. Stop trolling.

Nope, he's calling it right. This board is littered with straw man arguments, mostly from the same suspects over and over. i've been saying the same thing since I got here. Half the time I wonder if people are even reading my posts at all before responding with straw man nonsense that has nothing to do with anything I said.

 

[Dime Dropper]

Nope, he's calling it right. This board is littered with straw man arguments, mostly from the same suspects over and over. i've been saying the same thing since I got here. Half the time I wonder if people are even reading my posts at all before responding with straw man nonsense that has nothing to do with anything I said.

It's also littered with arguments which indicate a complete lack of NBA knowledge. If it helps you to deal with it, continue to call posts which completely refute your argument straw man.

 

[Bricklayer]

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You are the one claiming Reke is lacking skills not me. I don't need strawmen to make that look foolish.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

It's also littered with arguments which indicate a complete lack of NBA knowledge. If it helps you to deal with it, continue to call posts which completely refute your argument straw man.

I don't need help dealing with anything. I'm not here to posture or take part in pissing contests to try and out "expert" other posters. The fact is, many people use "complete lack of NBA knowledge" as a WEAK dismissal of views they do not agree with. It's intellectual laziness. Anyone can just say to their opponent "you don't know what you're talking about" but it has no substance. Nor does refuting claims that were never made, i.e. straw man arguments.

 

[Glenn]

Nope, he's calling it right. This board is littered with straw man arguments, mostly from the same suspects over and over. i've been saying the same thing since I got here. Half the time I wonder if people are even reading my posts at all before responding with straw man nonsense that has nothing to do with anything I said.

I don't read any of your posts except this as a quote showed up. Maybe the use of the "Ignore" feature is why you don't think people read your posts. They don't. That feature saves a lot of wasted time.

 

[Dime Dropper]

I don't need help dealing with anything. I'm not here to posture or take part in pissing contests to try and out "expert" other posters. The fact is, many people use "complete lack of NBA knowledge" as a WEAK dismissal of views they do not agree with. It's intellectual laziness. Anyone can just say to their opponent "you don't know what you're talking about" but it has no substance. Nor does refuting claims that were never made, i.e. straw man arguments.

Strawman!



In any case, it is often true that people are talking out of their rear ends, admittedly unbeknownst to themselves. I won't get into it further, no point. One thing is clear, people have very skewed visions of Tyreke, and make weak arguments in order to create problems that aren't there. The dislike is very strange.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

I don't read any of your posts except this as a quote showed up. Maybe the use of the "Ignore" feature is why you don't think people read your posts. They don't. That feature saves a lot of wasted time.

So the people who are responding to my posts have me on ignore. Haha. The funny part is, you just provided an excellent example of exactly what i was talking about. Though, you clearly don't realize it.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Strawman!

LOL. I know you are but what am I?

 

[rainmaker]

One of the reasons those PGs had that shot was because they COUDLN'T do what Reke does, which is to say get all the way to the rim consistently (size is often an issue for most PGs). So while it would certainly be a useful thing for Reke to have, let's not talk about it like there have been these mythical PGs running aorund who could devastate you all the way to the rim, oh and also took the time to devlop a top floater just for the hell of it. For most of them its an either/or. Would love to dominate to the rim, but if I'm not capable of that, I gotta find another way.

Its much like the left hand boondoggle. Many of us on this board have a more useful left hand than Reke...and yet he would kick the living crap out of anyone here if we played him. Destroy us. So again its the same thing. Having a left to have a left is irrelevant. Its a good thing to have for most of us because it opens up doors that we can't open otherwise. If those doors are largely just open, you can get places on the floor that 95% of your compatriots cannot, all done with one hand, it becomes a minor issue. He would be better with a left. But with a right alone he accomplishes more with the ball than all but a handful of ambidextrous sorts. Some people are just naturally very right (or left) hand dominant. If your coordination with your right hand rates 100, and your coordination with your left hand rates 50, you might be better off letting the right sub for the left rather than fumbling about with a weak hand.

I understand your point, but Reke doesn't get to the rim every time he wants. He gets into the paint when he wants. He's an elite penetrator, but that doesn't get you a layup more then 3-4 times per game. Just as often as Reke gets to the rim and gets a layup, he gets into the paint and is cut off before getting to the rim. Right now his best option is either trying to draw contract and get ft's, or to kick it to a shooter or dump it off.

It's when he gets into that inbetween zone that I'd like to see something he can go to, which at this point he doesn't have. Those videos were just examples of what I'd like to see him add, as well as one of the areas on the floor he's least effective at finishing.

Obviously he wouldn't have to rely on it the same way TP does. However Rose on the other hand, while not as big as Reke, also is an elite penetrator. What does Rose do when that final 5-7ft is taken away? He either kicks it out, or puts of a floater which he's mastered, off one foot, two feet or a spin.

I could have just as easily have posted clips of Joe Johnsons floater, or Wades. The whole point is what does Reke have in his arsenal when that final step, that final 5-7ft is taken away?

 

[Henkel]

Rehashing of the same arguments, take those arguments to the extreme, end in butt hurt. Lets give it a week and meet back here for round 572 of this fascinating debate.

 

[Glenn]

Rehashing of the same arguments, take those arguments to the extreme, end in butt hurt. Lets give it a week and meet back here for round 572 of this fascinating debate.

Sarcasm duly noted. I'd like to see such a detailed discussion about Cuz but as long as he doesn't lose his temper, he's no fun to discuss.

 

[Tetsujin]

If you want to say Reke has low skill level compared to Jojo McPerfect, the mythical God of All That is Basketball, fine. So does everybody else. Back in rational land he's one of the best rounded of all the flawed non-Jojo McPerfect young players in the game.

Is Jojo McPerfect a free agent? Because we could really use him at SF

 

[Glenn]

Is Jojo McPerfect a free agent? Because we could really use him at SF

and center. Why limit him to one position at a time?

 

[uolj]

You know... if you think someone is arguing against a strawman, then a good idea would be to carefully explain what you really are trying to say and how the strawman misses the point.

Similarly, if you're being accused of creating a strawman, then a good idea would be to try to clarify the point that is being made so you can better respond to it.

It's really not that hard.

In this case, it sounds like everybody agrees there are quite a few small things that Evans doesn't do well (as is the case with nearly every player). Some think the totality of those "holes" makes Evans a limited player, and without improving on a few of them, he won't be able to be a #1 or #2 guy on a contending team. Others think that the rest of what Evans does well is enough to give him the talent to be that #1 or #2 guy, possibly with the caveats that he needs to improve his jumpshot, needs experience, and needs better roleplayers/coaching around him than he has gotten so far.

Did I get someone's argument wrong? Anybody want to clarify?

 

[IfAt1st]

Anybody want to clarify?

Sure thing.
I can clarify.

But it won't stop people on this board from ignoring points and observations that are made, and then making up a simplistic straw man to reply to.

I made my description of Tyreke's weaknesses clear on Page 1 - that doesn't stop people from ignoring them and making believe it's all about Reke's shooting.
I'll even save people the trouble of going back and actually reading - I'll quote:

Combined with his lack of bball IQ and mental weakness, as proven by his mom having to come to Sac to smack him out of his mental funk (it wasn't physical then), and in 5 years I see him as a roleplayer on a winning team (i.e. not the Kings) or a centerpiece of a losing team.

As far as defensively?
He's got skills, but they are eviscerated by his lack of focus & bouts of laziness on defense. He'll get his team some points on defensive steals, but he gives up more by gambling, letting his man by and poking it from behind, and simply losing his man to give up a bucket.

I'll add another key weakness, too:
He either doesn't know HOW to box out and put a body on his man, or he thinks that's what OTHER people have to do.
I lose track of how often he loses track of his man on rebounds.
There are times when he just stands still for a good second and a half after the ball is shot by the opposing team and when is bounces off the rim - he has no reaction whatsoever.
It's at these times when his man has reacted to the shot, ran around him, gotten the rebound and makes a play.

That's a weakness. A glaring one if you know basketball.

But I'll list another, potentially more crippling weakness of Tyreke's:

He has proven unwilling (or unable) to even start learning how to run a pick and roll.

Are those enough clarification of weakness that aren't shot-related with Tyreke?
Or are those just not weaknesses somehow?

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Sure thing.
I can clarify.

But it won't stop people on this board from ignoring points and observations that are made, and then making up a simplistic straw man to reply to.

I made my description of Tyreke's weaknesses clear on Page 1 - that doesn't stop people from ignoring them and making believe it's all about Reke's shooting.
I'll even save people the trouble of going back and actually reading - I'll quote:
I'll add another key weakness, too:
He either doesn't know HOW to box out and put a body on his man, or he thinks that's what OTHER people have to do.
I lose track of how often he loses track of his man on rebounds.
There are times when he just stands still for a good second and a half after the ball is shot by the opposing team and when is bounces off the rim - he has no reaction whatsoever.
It's at these times when his man has reacted to the shot, ran around him, gotten the rebound and makes a play.

That's a weakness. A glaring one if you know basketball.

But I'll list another, potentially more crippling weakness of Tyreke's:

He has proven unwilling (or unable) to even start learning how to run a pick and roll.

Are those enough clarification of weakness that aren't shot-related with Tyreke?
Or are those just not weaknesses somehow?

You just don't know basketball. Tyreke is one of the most complete players in the league...

 

[Bricklayer]

I understand your point, but Reke doesn't get to the rim every time he wants. He gets into the paint when he wants. He's an elite penetrator, but that doesn't get you a layup more then 3-4 times per game.

Actually its 6.3 layups a game, 11th in the league, sandwiched right in between Rose at 6.2 and Westbrook at 6.4, and both of those guys take a lot more shots than he does.

That's the thing. Last year he was hurt at still at 6.2, good for 9th in the league. In his rookie season he was at 8.4 and #1 in the entire league. He gets to that rack better than just about anybody in the league, and has since he set foot in the league. More weapons are always greater than fewer weapons, but when people argue he has to develop such and such a weapon to be effective going toward the hoop I have to ask how many non-Kings games they are watching. Because basically nobody gets their anymore than Reke as it already is. Throw in a great floater and you might actually be talking about the greatest penetrating guard in the history of the NBA, and accordingly, basketball. Would love to have the greatest penetrating guard in the history of basketball on our team, but the guy is already devastating going to the rack as it is.

 

[Glenn]

Sure thing.
I can clarify.

But it won't stop people on this board from ignoring points and observations that are made, and then making up a simplistic straw man to reply to.

I made my description of Tyreke's weaknesses clear on Page 1 - that doesn't stop people from ignoring them and making believe it's all about Reke's shooting.
I'll even save people the trouble of going back and actually reading - I'll quote:
I'll add another key weakness, too:
He either doesn't know HOW to box out and put a body on his man, or he thinks that's what OTHER people have to do.
I lose track of how often he loses track of his man on rebounds.
There are times when he just stands still for a good second and a half after the ball is shot by the opposing team and when is bounces off the rim - he has no reaction whatsoever.
It's at these times when his man has reacted to the shot, ran around him, gotten the rebound and makes a play.

That's a weakness. A glaring one if you know basketball.

But I'll list another, potentially more crippling weakness of Tyreke's:

He has proven unwilling (or unable) to even start learning how to run a pick and roll.

Are those enough clarification of weakness that aren't shot-related with Tyreke?
Or are those just not weaknesses somehow?

I will tell you my problem with this note in particular. You present opinions as if they are facts and then complain when people do not respond in whatever way you think they should respond. I won't accept your opinions as facts and then be expected to come up with my own set of facts to debate with you.

For example, your idea that he has a poor basketball IQ but I'm sure people will disagree. I frankly wouldn't know if he does or doesn't considering he has played for a coach who seemingly has one of the lowest coaching IQs in the league.

Saying he has a mental weakness because of what? I don't recall the incident but a mother visiting her son at an age where many sons are still living at home doesn't strike me as odd and certainly is not proof of a mental weakness.

He has proven unwilling or unable to even start learning how to run a pick and roll. Are you at practices. And if we accept the idea he doesn't run a pick and roll, show me another King who does.

In some ways you are claiming to know what is going on inside his head and that is unarguable. No one knows.

Then you kind of finish it off by implying that if people don't know what you know, they simply don't know basketball.

Well, then, I don't know basketball and won't waste my time discussing such things to someone who has such disdain for the rest of us mere mortals.

Now I haven't followed the responses to your posts as closely as you have so maybe I have missed the inadequacies of those around you. I'm certainly not going to take tiume out of my life to check back over the thread.

Now I will guarantee you I will not debate this endlessly. If it satisfies you that I am misinformed, that's fine. There is no winning or losing a discussion of opinions as I must say is a fact of most discussions on this forum.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

I will tell you my problem with this note in particular. You present opinions as if they are facts and then complain when people do not respond in whatever way you think they should respond. I won't accept your opinions as facts and then be expected to come up with my own set of facts to debate with you.

For example, your idea that he has a poor basketball IQ but I'm sure people will disagree. I frankly wouldn't know if he does or doesn't considering he has played for a coach who seemingly has one of the lowest coaching IQs in the league.

Saying he has a mental weakness because of what? I don't recall the incident but a mother visiting her son at an age where many sons are still living at home doesn't strike me as ofdd and certainly is not ptoof of a mental weakness.

He has proven unwilling or unable to even start learning how to run a pick and roll. Are you at practices. And if we accept the idea he doesn't run a pick and roll, show me another King who does.

In some ways you are claiming to know what is going on inside his head and that is unarguable. No one knows.

Then you kind of finish it off by implying that if people don't know what you know, they simply don't know basketball.

Well, then, I don't know basketball and won't waste my time discussing such things to someone who has such disdain for the rest of us mere mortals.

Now I haven't followed the responses to your posts as closely as you have so maybe I have missed the inadequacies of those around you. I'm certainly not going to take tiume out of my life to check back over the thread.

People on both sides "present opinions as facts". No snese calling folks out for what you do yourselves.

 

[Bricklayer]

Sure thing.
I can clarify.

But it won't stop people on this board from ignoring points and observations that are made, and then making up a simplistic straw man to reply to.

I made my description of Tyreke's weaknesses clear on Page 1 - that doesn't stop people from ignoring them and making believe it's all about Reke's shooting.
I'll even save people the trouble of going back and actually reading - I'll quote:
I'll add another key weakness, too:
He either doesn't know HOW to box out and put a body on his man, or he thinks that's what OTHER people have to do.
I lose track of how often he loses track of his man on rebounds.
There are times when he just stands still for a good second and a half after the ball is shot by the opposing team and when is bounces off the rim - he has no reaction whatsoever.
It's at these times when his man has reacted to the shot, ran around him, gotten the rebound and makes a play.

That's a weakness. A glaring one if you know basketball.

But I'll list another, potentially more crippling weakness of Tyreke's:

He has proven unwilling (or unable) to even start learning how to run a pick and roll.

Are those enough clarification of weakness that aren't shot-related with Tyreke?
Or are those just not weaknesses somehow?

More ridiculousness. Its kind of sad really some of these arguments. NO WONDER you don't like Reke with silly stuff like that.

Name me one guard, ANY guard, who consistently boxes out his man on rebounds. ANY of them. Boxing out is a key skill for a big man rebounder. But guards almost never do it, for the simple reason that there is too much space out where they play and finding and holding the guy out from that many angles is impossible. Its like saying Shaq sure was weak at shooting three pointers. Its ridiculous.

Reke is and has been one of the very best defensive rebounding PGs in the entire league. Its one of his, and our, STRENGTHS. Which maybe is why there is an attempt to attack it. Curious pattern I have noticed amongst the Reke-hunters around here. Let's try to deny his strengths. Then we got him! So silly.

here's Reke's defensive rebounding:

11-12: 3.9 5th amongst PGs (Lowry, Wall, Rubio, Kidd, Evans)
10-11: 4.0 2nd amongst PGs (Wall)
19-10: 4.4 2nd amongst PGs (Kidd)


Again, people simply do not know what they are watching. No wonder they hate on the kid. They think everybody else has Jordan.

 

[Section 101]

More ridiculousness. Its kind of sad really some of these arguments. NO WONDER you don't like Reke with silly stuff like that.

Name me one guard, ANY guard, who consistently boxes out his man on rebounds. ANY of them. Boxing out is a key skill for a big man rebounder. But guards almost never do it, for the simple reason that there is too much space out where they play and finding and holding the guy out from that many angles is impossible. Its like saying Shaq sure was weak at shooting three pointers. Its ridiculous.

Reek is and has been one of the very best defensive rebounding PGs in the entire league. Its one of his STRENGTHS. Which maybe is why there is an attempt to attack it. Curious pattern I have noticed amongst the Reke-hunters around here. Let's try to deny his strengths. Then we got him! So silly.

here's Reke's defensive rebounding:

11-12: 3.9 5th amongst PGs (Lowry, Wall, Rubio, Kidd, Evans)
10-11: 4.0 2nd amongst PGs (Wall)
19-10: 4.4 2nd amongst PGs (Kidd)


Again, people simply do not know what they are watching. No wonder they hate on the kid. They think everybody else has Jordan.

Bet you hade to cringe to write that.

Maybe he's this high because he's a SG and not a point guard.

 

[Henkel]

People on both sides "present opinions as facts". No snese calling folks out for what you do yourselves.

Good argument bro. I know "straw man", even when not appropriate, is all the rage right now, but there are other logical fallacies you might wanna try to avoid. Or not. Also, straw man.

 

[Dime Dropper]

More ridiculousness. Its kind of sad really some of these arguments. NO WONDER you don't like Reke with silly stuff like that.

Name me one guard, ANY guard, who consistently boxes out his man on rebounds. ANY of them. Boxing out is a key skill for a big man rebounder. But guards almost never do it, for the simple reason that there is too much space out where they play and finding and holding the guy out from that many angles is impossible. Its like saying Shaq sure was weak at shooting three pointers. Its ridiculous.

Reke is and has been one of the very best defensive rebounding PGs in the entire league. Its one of his, and our, STRENGTHS. Which maybe is why there is an attempt to attack it. Curious pattern I have noticed amongst the Reke-hunters around here. Let's try to deny his strengths. Then we got him! So silly.

here's Reke's defensive rebounding:

11-12: 3.9 5th amongst PGs (Lowry, Wall, Rubio, Kidd, Evans)
10-11: 4.0 2nd amongst PGs (Wall)
19-10: 4.4 2nd amongst PGs (Kidd)


Again, people simply do not know what they are watching. No wonder they hate on the kid. They think everybody else has Jordan.

Once again, boom pow. And from now on, the ignore function is my friend.