What is our PG worth? SI takes a stab at it.
- Thread starter Chubbs
- Start date
Since I wasn't aware (nor do I really care 
) about the STR backstory, I simply posted the link to the article. It brings up some points that are, I think, worthy of discussion/debate. If Aykis is, in fact, that much of an IT jocker, there are at least a couple of participants in this thread who should be happy to have another positive IT take.
) about the STR backstory, I simply posted the link to the article. It brings up some points that are, I think, worthy of discussion/debate. If Aykis is, in fact, that much of an IT jocker, there are at least a couple of participants in this thread who should be happy to have another positive IT take.
Yes and it would also be akin to putting out an article about how impressive three guys averaging 20/20/20 is, without a backdrop and going into how unsuccessful that strategy is.
I don't mind stats, but context is always appreciated. What I do mind is concentrating on and marketing around stats on a losing/lottery team. The previous regime did that and we're seeing it now as well. Unless it's a far and away dominant talent like Boogie where the talent/statistical achievements are clear, I see it as trying to distract from the situation at large and meant to drum up excitement amid another losing season.
I don't mind stats, but context is always appreciated. What I do mind is concentrating on and marketing around stats on a losing/lottery team. The previous regime did that and we're seeing it now as well. Unless it's a far and away dominant talent like Boogie where the talent/statistical achievements are clear, I see it as trying to distract from the situation at large and meant to drum up excitement amid another losing season.
Since I wasn't aware (nor do I really care ) about the STR backstory, I simply posted the link to the article. It brings up some points that are, I think, worthy of discussion/debate. If Aykis is, in fact, that much of an IT jocker, there are at least a couple of participants in this thread who should be happy to have another positive IT take.
) about the STR backstory, I simply posted the link to the article. It brings up some points that are, I think, worthy of discussion/debate. If Aykis is, in fact, that much of an IT jocker, there are at least a couple of participants in this thread who should be happy to have another positive IT take.
All of that is to validate what we all see with our own eyes each game. IT is a talented scorer who shoots well from outside and gets to rim incredibly well. He's a sparkplug scorer, not really a facilitator or "true PG" and pretty poor defensively.
As a side note from 1985-2003 John Stockton AVERAGED a PER of 21.8, an assist percentage double that of the players in that list at an amazing 50% and a true shooting percentage of 60% with a much higher defensive rating, a defensive win share 3 times higher and 10.5 assists per game despite a USG% 4.5% LOWER than IT.
Is it unfair to compare IT to a HOFer like Stockton? Yep. Just as unfair as cherry picking stats to make it seem like he belongs alongside Magic Johnson, Walt Frazier, Chris Paul etc.
Isaiah Thomas is a very gifted scorer who plays with great hustle and heart. He's accomplished more than anyone ever thought he would in the NBA and is continuing to improve. But let's be realistic about what he is and isn't.
Last edited:
Clearly, you're the one looking to take the article out of context.
Stats are what you make them to be. Aykis isn't comparing IT to the players on the list. He's using the list as apart of a line of evidence for IT being a strong starter in the NBA. You know, the way it should be to back up an assertion.
Also, you want to talk about cherry-picking? PER, TS%, AST%, and TOV% are 4 of the best stats to measure an offensive player. Aykis used 3 of them. You on the other hand cherry-picked some of the worst ways of measuring a player with FG%, STL%, APG, defensive rating and even worse, defensive win shares.
Stats are what you make them to be. Aykis isn't comparing IT to the players on the list. He's using the list as apart of a line of evidence for IT being a strong starter in the NBA. You know, the way it should be to back up an assertion.
Also, you want to talk about cherry-picking? PER, TS%, AST%, and TOV% are 4 of the best stats to measure an offensive player. Aykis used 3 of them. You on the other hand cherry-picked some of the worst ways of measuring a player with FG%, STL%, APG, defensive rating and even worse, defensive win shares.
We can argue the validity of different stats all we want, that wasn't really the point of my post.
The evidence (statistical or observational) shows that IT is a strong scorer, a mediocre distributor/facilitator (as PGs go) and a poor defender. He's putting up great offensive numbers on a team that is near the bottom of the league in most defensive categories and has plummeted to the bottom of the league in assists in the last few months.
Your defense is that the stats chosen are great for measuring offensive productivity. And I'm saying that offensive productivity isn't what I want out of the starting PG on a team featuring DeMarcus Cousins and Rudy Gay.
The evidence (statistical or observational) shows that IT is a strong scorer, a mediocre distributor/facilitator (as PGs go) and a poor defender. He's putting up great offensive numbers on a team that is near the bottom of the league in most defensive categories and has plummeted to the bottom of the league in assists in the last few months.
Your defense is that the stats chosen are great for measuring offensive productivity. And I'm saying that offensive productivity isn't what I want out of the starting PG on a team featuring DeMarcus Cousins and Rudy Gay.
Last edited:
Please stop the hypocrisy. So stats aren't useful (for IT) unless you deem them useful (for Cousins)? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you want to make the "losing team argument", then great, let's get rid of them ALL, including Cousins. Every single last one. But don't put Cousins' stats in some super special secret category because, well, you know, he's Cousins, and you like Cousins, so he's special and therefore his stats should be viewed as credible, whereas IT, you know, is not special, and therefore his stats shouldn't be viewed as credible. That's pure BS.
The only statistic that matters to me is that we simply don't win. If IT was really that good we should have at least 35-40 wins right now. Well we don't and that is a telling sign. He's a great offensive player and has achieved much more than I thought he ever could, but his game is not suited for on court chemistry or winning, at least as a starter. I'm not at all pinning all of our losses on IT but considering his self proclaimed I'm a leader role and his usage rate, he certainly is a big part of the problem.
You're main issue is after months of debating this issue, you still fail to understand the argument. People have tried to hold your hand and walk you through it, but at this point I think there's little hope. If you can't tell the difference between the talent which is DeMarcus Cousins, in comparison to the talent which is Isaiah Thomas and why comparing stats between them isn't an apple to apple comparison, you'll never get it.
I'm not regurgitating this entire debate yet again.
I'm not regurgitating this entire debate yet again.
I can't believe that this discussion is still going on. I'm not sure I have the mental endurance for it. That's assuming that I have a mind at all.
I think we'd all love something else to talk about at this time of year. This lottery crap pisses me off. But, it's also on the FO and the team to give us something else to talk about. Royce White doesn't do it for me. When they produce a winner, I'd guess we'd all be talking post season basketball and not having these same, tired debates.
The FO did take over a very bad team last year, and it hasn't even been a full year since they did.
This team is playing much better following the acquisition of gay. This is a franchise that hasn't had a 30 win season since the 2007-2008 season, so it's certainly going to take more than one off season to fix all of that.
This team is playing much better following the acquisition of gay. This is a franchise that hasn't had a 30 win season since the 2007-2008 season, so it's certainly going to take more than one off season to fix all of that.
Which is what makes the IT situation all that more important. Offering a guy who's one leg injury away from being utterly useless a large above-his-paygrade contract is something that could potentially torpedo the franchise (which is kinda the same reason that I was fine with not matching Reke's contract, though that was to a lesser extent as he at least offers length and defense).
I can't believe that this discussion is still going on. I'm not sure I have the mental endurance for it. That's assuming that I have a mind at all.
It's not entirely about ppg and assists. It's about game flow. Knowing when to try to take over a game and knowing when to get other players the ball so they have the confidence late in the game when you need them.
That's the major issue. If the Kings can retain Thomas for cheap, great, but that's far from guaranteed. Do the QO and wait to see what the market is for Thomas.
If you lose Thomas, you sign D.J. Augustin, who is on Thomas' tier for scoring point guards and should be available for a mini-MLE level contract as long as you offer him a couple of years. If we had better wing ball-handlers, I would suggest chasing Mario Chalmers, but I don't trust him to run an offense with McLemore and the turnover prone Gay.
If you lose Thomas, you sign D.J. Augustin, who is on Thomas' tier for scoring point guards and should be available for a mini-MLE level contract as long as you offer him a couple of years. If we had better wing ball-handlers, I would suggest chasing Mario Chalmers, but I don't trust him to run an offense with McLemore and the turnover prone Gay.
You can't worry too much about that sort of thing for a 25yr old guy with no injury history. Tough little nut too. We do have to quit plying him 40min a night though. That's just asking for it eventually.
Now IT's next contract when he's 29 will be the interesting one for somebody. Little guys always begin slowing down in their early 30s and you don't want to be caught holding the bag.
Now IT's next contract when he's 29 will be the interesting one for somebody. Little guys always begin slowing down in their early 30s and you don't want to be caught holding the bag.
Its always amusing to hear this kind of stuff about more well-known commentators coming from people inside their comfy little echo chambers. Especially when its hyperbolic horse doodoo like the above.
Now, its really easy to start exaggerating about someone or another's opinions about a certain player or another. Easy to say someone "slobbers" over IT when that person isn't around to defend himself. I have to say though, its rather cowardly. Sounds like someone doesn't want their opinion challenged.
Now, its really easy to start exaggerating about someone or another's opinions about a certain player or another. Easy to say someone "slobbers" over IT when that person isn't around to defend himself. I have to say though, its rather cowardly. Sounds like someone doesn't want their opinion challenged.
now this sounds hyperbolic to me; there are certainly more than enough individuals "slobbering" over IT right here on this forum to challenge the opinions of those who aren't nearly as taken by the public representative of a fairly mediocre local pizza chain...
now this sounds hyperbolic to me; there are certainly more than enough individuals "slobbering" over IT right here on this forum to challenge the opinions of those who aren't nearly as taken by the public representative of a fairly mediocre local pizza chain...
Saying there are more than enough individuals slobbering over IT on this forum is hyperbole.
Ah, if all posters were created equal you would have a point. But I think you know as well as I do that they aren't.
compare that grant- and jerry-sponsored narrative for isaiah thomas to a full-sized, strong, physical talent like tyreke evans, whose tunnel-visioned drives to the basket were often characterized as bull-headed and selfish during his time in sacramento. yet both players are strong finishers at the rim, and both prefer to make that play at the rim rather than pass out of it, though evans' size has always been an underrated asset in those drive-and-kick situations. but one of these two has "heart," and the other is "selfish."
my point is simply that the passionate rah-rah'ing of the "RUDY" narrative will always drown out a more sensible discussion about how an overabundance of offensively-inclined talent fits together on this defensively-deficient roster, and that is why we see the backlash to IT-mania. that is why we see so many at kf.com overstepping in their criticism of IT, however warranted that criticism may be. when one is met with unproductive hyperbole, one often responds in kind...
this would be a start:
http://www.kingsfans.com/threads/grades-v-wizards-3-18-2014.56243/#post-1068515
http://www.kingsfans.com/threads/grades-v-wizards-3-18-2014.56243/#post-1068515
It's not as prevalent as it used to be. His rookie season, the slobbering was pretty bad, in part because Tyreke wasn't making serious progress and Jimmer was bad, so any ray of hope was something to latch on to. I still think that Smart moving Tyreke to the 3 and starting IT and letting him dominate the ball was the biggest (of many) mistakes that he made while coaching here.
Most posters here like IT, but don't like the constant rah-rah for the little guy that comes with him. It's especially tiresome because the team's announcers are the two biggest culprits, with a few of the Sacramento beat writers chiming in as well. He is a good to very good offensive guard who pounds the ball more than anyone in the NBA not named John Wall and is a defensive liability because of size and inconsistent effort. People who build him up by making Chris Paul comparisons and talking about how he shut down John Wall (serious, you guys) make the rest of us roll our eyes so hard that it requires surgical correction.
Most posters here like IT, but don't like the constant rah-rah for the little guy that comes with him. It's especially tiresome because the team's announcers are the two biggest culprits, with a few of the Sacramento beat writers chiming in as well. He is a good to very good offensive guard who pounds the ball more than anyone in the NBA not named John Wall and is a defensive liability because of size and inconsistent effort. People who build him up by making Chris Paul comparisons and talking about how he shut down John Wall (serious, you guys) make the rest of us roll our eyes so hard that it requires surgical correction.