What is our PG worth? SI takes a stab at it.

VF21

Super Moderator Emeritus
SME
#4
...Point guards such as Curry, Ty Lawson and Wall have signed rookie extensions for an average of more than $10 million annually, and while Thomas might not quite be in their category, his offensive ability should command well over mid-level money if guards like Monta Ellis, Brandon Jennings and Jeff Teague each pulled down at least $7 million per year in free agency last summer. A starting salary in the $8 million to $9 million range would represent a massive raise for Thomas and it might actually still be a good value...
Depending on what other roster moves we make, I don't have a problem with that.
 

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#8
I'd offer 4/16-18M as a 6th man. I do think he could be very valuable as a 6th man and with a contract like that he's somewhat near contracts Jamal Crawford and JR Smith have received although they both have better resumes(ignoring JR being a complete nutcase). But he simply doesn't see the game the way a starting PG needs to. He just doesn't have a grasp of the flow of a game.

Problem is I don't see IT going for that which is why I think he might be moved. Likely moved actually by the deadline. Too big a gamble to think we can sign him to a new contract in a 6th man role for under 5M this July. So we use that asset to get something while we can. I also think that's both PDA's and Malone's intent and I personally never bought into the talk that IT is part of our big 3.
 
#9
6-8 million is the range for IT in my view and that's about the most sensible spending the Kings can do this off-season unless they trade Thornton or JT for salary dumps
 

Glenn

Hall of Famer
#10
6-8 million is the range for IT in my view and that's about the most sensible spending the Kings can do this off-season unless they trade Thornton or JT for salary dumps
Then we can't afford him. We have a maxed out Rudy and Cuz, we have MT and his ridiculous contract, we have Landry, and JT. We must be coming near luxury tax land without filling out a full squad.
 

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat
#11
We can afford a $6-$8mil PG. In fact we have to be able to if we want to field a serious talent there. Whether it will be IT? Well that I don't know.

What we can't afford to do though is pay 2 PGs real money. It was why IT going back to 6th man was such a problem. Can't pay him, send him back to 6th man, without having to just start a scrub over him.
 

CruzDude

Senior Member sharing a brew with bajaden
#13
All around PG eh? Seems we have someone nearer to that than what IT brings: Jimmer. (I am not a JimmerLieber but a basketball fan.) With each game now he is improving his defense and taking more open shots and seeing the floor and passing rather than over dribbling. Give him more minutes. The SI article makes me wonder if the PER includes TO's or one-on-one play......
 
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#14
6-8 million is the range for IT in my view and that's about the most sensible spending the Kings can do this off-season unless they trade Thornton or JT for salary dumps
I approve this message. I wouldn't pay him the Jrue/Curry extension, but I do think he's better than the Jennings extension group. So a happy medium is around that range
 
#17
For an undersized, defensively deficient pg that plays more like a sg? I'd be shocked if any gm pays anything close to that. I think 4-6m is his ceiling.

Hopefully our management looks at things closer to my perspective than yours.
Slightly off-topic, but what do u think of the Lawson extension? Worth it or no?
 
#18
Slightly off-topic, but what do u think of the Lawson extension? Worth it or no?
I think it's a relevant question. I thought Lawson's was a few million too high but as the best player on their team, I understand why they did it. Personally I don't like overpaying for one way players unless there is a clear reason to do so.
 

rainmaker

Hall of Famer
#19
Saying what you think he's worth and/or should get means crap unless you also say starter or 6th man.

If you're paying him 6-8M, even 10M per year, you sure as **** better be convinced he's a starting PG who can lead us well into the playoffs. If you want to pay him close to that to come off the bench, you probably need to make an appointment to get your head checked at your doctor's office in the morning.

As Brick brought up and anyone who actually considers the salary cap for more the two secs realizes, if you pay IT 8M or 10M as a 6th man, then you only have room for a not so good starting PG. Or do you guys think we'll also get a starting PG, a good one worth 8-10M and pay both IT/new PG 16-20M, on top of Gay/Cuz? Could be more. That won't work, not to mention if we got a legit PG upgrade and a PG worth at least 8-10M, that PG is playing 35 mins a night, so you're essentially paying IT what you guys are suggesting to play 15 min per night off the bench.

I'll give you guys the benefit of the doubt and assume you think IT is our starting PG going forward and can help lead us well into the playoffs 2-3 years from now and he should be paid as such. I sure hope PDA isn't thinking the same way.
 

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude
#20
For an undersized, defensively deficient pg that plays more like a sg? I'd be shocked if any gm pays anything close to that. I think 4-6m is his ceiling.

Hopefully our management looks at things closer to my perspective than yours.
If David Kahn were still in the league, he probably would. Nellie too. Brian Colangelo as well. Pretty much, every guy stupid enough to offer 10 million dollars a year to a vastly undersized scorer is out of the league.
 

dude12

Hall of Famer
#21
If they didn't pay Tyreke the 10-11 mill contract, there is no way they pay 8-10 for IT....nor is IT worth it. Defense counts and for all the good things he does on offense, because being able to score counts as well, his overall game as a starting PG is not worth that. Next time our backcourt gets lit up for a career night by a PG again, which happens often, ask yourself if he's worth that 10 mill range.
 
#22
I personally like IT but for $8-$10 million.....thats a bit steep. If you end up paying him close to that to be are starting PG you definitely need to fill your SG and PF spots with some very very good defensive players. I like the offensive numbers are 3 headed monster is putting up but if you keep them together you need lots of defense to surround them.
 
#23
All around PG eh? Seems we have someone nearer to that than what IT brings: Jimmer. (I am not a JimmerLieber but a basketball fan.) With each game now he is improving his defense and taking more open shots and seeing the floor and passing rather than over dribbling. Give him more minutes. The SI article makes me wonder if the PER includes TO's or one-on-one play......
Jimmer is doing reasonably well in the backup spot, but I am still wary of matching him up against top tier point guards. I do think that Jimmer is a better fit with the starting five than IT in temperament if not overall ability. I have no doubt that he would defer to Cousins and Gay before trying to get his own looks. Defensively, he's not enough of an upgrade over IT (if he is an upgrade at all) to make it worth the team's while.

I am upset about the game last night, so I'm trying to rein in my criticism of IT until I can be a little more detached. Still, I don't think I would go over the MLE to retain him. I'm not fully convinced he is a better player than C.J. Watson to be perfectly honest.

The way I see it, you can run with non-defenders in, at-most, 2 positions. Right now we are doing that in four positions: PG, SG, PF, C. Gay isn't the best defender in the world, but he is generally an above-average defender. If you can find absolute defensive studs at the 2 and 4, maybe, MAYBE, you can get by with IT at the point. I think it would be cheaper and easier to go after Hinrich in the offseason. He's not half the player Isaiah is on offense, but he is easily twice the defender even as an old man. He should also be pretty cheap coming off a bad year in tanktastic Chicago.
 
#25
He won't get more than 7mill from us or anyone else for that matter. Most teams with cap space have pgs on there team already and won't break the bank for a back up.

Atlanta: 47mill (have Teague)
Boston: 42mill (have rondo)
Bobcats: 40mill (have kemba)
Dallas: 40mill (Calderon/Larkin)
Detriot: 40mill (billups/jennings)
Bucks: 46mill (knights)
Orlando: 35mill (oladipo)
Philadelphia: 25mill (MCW)
Raps: 45mill(before resign lowery)

Philly, Orlando, Milwaukee are the only teams with space that need a pg but they are rebuilding and in philly and Orlando's case they already have there pg.
 
#26
He won't get more than 7mill from us or anyone else for that matter. Most teams with cap space have pgs on there team already and won't break the bank for a back up.

Atlanta: 47mill (have Teague)
Boston: 42mill (have rondo)
Bobcats: 40mill (have kemba)
Dallas: 40mill (Calderon/Larkin)
Detriot: 40mill (billups/jennings)
Bucks: 46mill (knights)
Orlando: 35mill (oladipo)
Philadelphia: 25mill (MCW)
Raps: 45mill(before resign lowery)

Philly, Orlando, Milwaukee are the only teams with space that need a pg but they are rebuilding and in philly and Orlando's case they already have there pg.
Great point. this basically proves that Isaiah will not get starters money. However it is not completely unreasonable to believe the someone views him like the pelicans did with Tyreke. I doubt he gets 10 to 11 million but I can see someone giving him eight and a half or maybe even 9 in a Manu role.

Also, not to start yet another Tyreke debare but two huge differences between Tyreke and Isaiah are: Tyreke was a poor 3-shooter, Isaiah is excellent. Isaiah is a horrible defender, Tyreke is a very good one.
 
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#27
We need to play this card right regarding IT but on that list Phili worries me the worst, that said I still think things are looking up on resigning him to a reasonable deal.
 
#28
I don't see anybody paying over $10 million for Isaiah. There's never been a sub-6' player who's ever earned that much except for Allen Iverson. That being said, a team like Orlando scares me. They could throw a huge chunk of cash at Isaiah if they see Oladipo as a SG moving forward. IT/Oladipo is a good looking backcourt moving forward. Then again, they might not want to shortcircuit their rebuild so quickly, so it remains to be seen.

I'd hazard a guess at IT getting a $7-$8 million type of deal, which works for me. When you consider the production he's giving you, that's a bargain. There's more than enough offense between the IT/Gay/Cousins trio to the point where you can spend the savings on higher-priced defenders, like a rim protector, without worrying too much about offense.

The Kings are stuck in luxury tax territory next year regardless because of Gay's max salary and Cousins getting his pay raise. But with Gay either opting out this year or expiring next year, we will have breathing room eventually since there's no way he's getting that kind of max deal again. Thornton and Outlaw expire in 2015, but Derrick will need his extension that year. Landry and Thompson are locked in long-term (for better or for worse). McLemore has four years before a non-rookie salary will kick in.

So, if we resign IT at say $8 million per year this offseason, we’re probably looking at this in 2014-2015:

Cousins – 13.7m
Thomas – 8m (estimated)
Thompson – 6m
Landry- 6.5m
McLemore – 3m
McCallam - .8m

Gay – 19.3m (needing an extension)
DWill – 4m (needing an extension)

Thornton – 8.6m (expiring)
Outlaw – 3m (expiring)
Acy -0.9m (expiring)

Needs:
1. Rim protector
2. Starting SG? (if McLemore doesn’t pan out)
3. Backup PG (Maybe we can retain Jimmer on a reasonable deal, but he needs to be someone Malone trusts)
4. Backup C (Less important than Backup PG since we can go small for periods of time, perhaps Aaron Gray will be up to the task)

There’s a lot of flexibility and buffer for luxury tax purposes. The luxury tax is really harsh on repeat offenders, so a one year dip into the tax won’t kill us, especially with our shiny new ownership group. Meanwhile, we have 12 million in expirings to play with and some nice young prospects if anyone wants to give up a defensive anchor type player. Lots of different ways PDA can go with this. We don't know who will be on the roster when our main needs are addressed.

What jumps out to me is Thompson and Landry’s salaries, both of whom are really third bigs. Need to shed one or the other. Thompson’s been important to our mini-surge, but he’s likely going to be the one to go. JT’s been building trade value quite nicely so its possible we could swap him for an expiring to a team needing a big (I’m looking at the Clippers in particular). Eventually we are going to need a rim protector next to Cousins so it’s a short-term loss for a long-term gain salary-wise.
 
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#30
He won't get more than 7mill from us or anyone else for that matter. Most teams with cap space have pgs on there team already and won't break the bank for a back up.

Atlanta: 47mill (have Teague)
Boston: 42mill (have rondo)
Bobcats: 40mill (have kemba)
Dallas: 40mill (Calderon/Larkin)
Detriot: 40mill (billups/jennings)
Bucks: 46mill (knights)
Orlando: 35mill (oladipo)
Philadelphia: 25mill (MCW)
Raps: 45mill(before resign lowery)

Philly, Orlando, Milwaukee are the only teams with space that need a pg but they are rebuilding and in philly and Orlando's case they already have there pg.
Nice breakdown. I could see Orlando interested because Oladipo could be the primary ball handler but guard SGs, while IT could play off the ball on offense but guard PGs on the other end. They also have Nelson, though, but he's only on the books for one more year after this, I believe.