Well, Chad Ford says Ellis is available .. put me on that bandwagon

[Jespher]

Because they would never pass the ball to anyone else.

LOL at you trying to use Jordan as an example. Do you see a Jordan here? No, right? Do you see anyone Jordon-like? No. Then why do you use Jordan's team? Because there was an anomaly in that team, what, with arguably the best player to ever play, and a perennial all star/50 greatest player as his wingman? A wingman that was a defensive game changer, passer, ball handler, and setup man? I dont even know where to begin with you using that example...

The 25 free throws a game is also misleading. You are taking two independent statistics, and adding them up. Sorry, but it doesn't work ilke that. You have to account for the fact that while one has teh ball, the other... doesnt.

Also, it's not so much they play the same position, its moreso that they play the same game; drive, shoot. Neither is a floor visionary, neither is a dominant defender. What you have is duplication of skills. You have two players who are best being receivers of the ball, however, the way we play basketball currently is that only one person can receive the ball at a singular time. This in effect diminishes the advantage you get with two of these players.

What you are proposing only works in videogames (but it does work; I've tried it).

Our world is not static, and players games aren't static, especially young players such as Monta Ellis and Kevin Martin. They are not above average defenders now, and Kevin is showing he is pretty poor this season, but that doesn't mean they lack the ability, ceiling, or drive to improve their game in that regard. And no, they aren't superstar players but give me players with their skill, athleticism, and fire, and they'll find a way to put it together and win a lot of games in the NBA. With their combined speed and shot fakes there isn't a backcourt in the NBA that could stay in front of Kevin and Monta, and they would live at the free throw line.

I choose the Ron Harper example as a player who is traditionally a 2 guard (see his 25 ppg Cleveland years) who moved out of position and played well (championship level well) to accomodate a better player at that position. Look at Gary Payton and Sam Cassell with the Bucks, or Alex Rodriguez and Derek Jeter with the Yankees, Hakeem Olajuwan and Ralph Sampson with the Rockets, Rasheed Wallace and Ben Wallace with the Pistons, ect...Stars/Talented players can play together, even if they traditionally play the same position, if there is enough ability, drive, and chemistry to achieve success.

 

[Smills91]

If the Warriors took

Beno/Salmons/Douby for Monta/Buike/Williams (which works under BYC)....sure maybe I'd consider it. But the combinations to make it work are pretty unfirendly and Monta's risk + contract make it pretty bad to pursue hard.

 

[Packt]

They just signed him. If he's already available, there's probably something wrong.

He still needs to prove he was worth losing Baron.

 

[Warhawk]

I added a poll - we just can't have enough polls. Of course, that's probably why we haven't seen hide nor hair of HndsmCelt in quite a while. He hated polls with a hatred generally reserved for the Lakers ...

I think you forgot an option in the poll:

"Why?" - that is the one I would have chosen.








And if you chased the Celt away with your polls, you are in big trouble, lady!

 

[kingsnation]

but im starting to think some people here dont want us to get anyone ever. I dont understand the Boozer hate but whatever .. the Ellis hate I really dont get.

I don't understand people's fascination with wanting overpaid, undersized, oft-injured players for this team.

Especially, since we've been burned by overpaid, undersized and oft-injured before.

 

[Kingster]

If he's 100% healthy, then yes, I'd love to have him If there is doubt about his future health, absolutely not.

 

[Showtime]

1. He's got to prove he's the same player, and will get better after this injury.

2. He's overpaid.

3. He's played in Nelly's system, which doesn't help at all with how he might translate on the Kings won't aren't fast paced and who work mainly in the halfcourt.

4. Unless Martin is involved, that's a lot of salary tied up in the backcourt which could limit getting a better player in the future.

If logic = hate, then I'm an angry mofo.

 

[VF21]

ps. Dont compare douby to ellis.

Look again. In no way did I compare Ellis to Douby. I was countering what I feel is a ridiculous statement - "Ellis is a franchise player" - with what I felt was another ridiculous statement - "If you give Douby a chance, he'll prove he can be a good point guard."

It was the statements being compared, not the players named in the statements.

 

[Kingster]

I don't understand the excitement over Ellis. Sure he can score with the best of them, but what else can he do? We already have a scorer in Martin who plays the same position, and Ellis (unlike Martin) has shown good reason to question his maturity with the whole "lying about getting injured on a moped" incident which is the only reason the Warriors would be interested in moving him in the first place. No thanks. I like him just where he is: someone else's problem.

He can break down a defense like nobody's business (if he's 100% healthy). There is nobody in the league that is as quick as he is, maybe with the exception of Paul.

As for maturity, young guys do tend to make mistakes; that's the deal. If it's just a mistake, fine. If there's really a character issue of greater proportions, then yeah, I'd stay away.

 

[TaxMan]

1. He's got to prove he's the same player, and will get better after this injury.

2. He's overpaid.

3. He's played in Nelly's system, which doesn't help at all with how he might translate on the Kings won't aren't fast paced and who work mainly in the halfcourt.

4. Unless Martin is involved, that's a lot of salary tied up in the backcourt which could limit getting a better player in the future.

If logic = hate, then I'm an angry mofo.

Assuming he is over his injury (still too early to tell), then he is clearly not overpaid. The guy is a dynamic player in the same vicinity talent wise was Martin. It's the going rate. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned the comparison to Tony Parker, and it really is a pretty good comparison. Smallish; extremely quick, great mid-range and penetrating game (but below average 3 point range). Parker clearly has the better PG instincts at this point in his career; however, he's also playing with potentially the greatest PF in history. Further, he's in a very structured offense that I would imagine hides some of his deficiencies in this area.

Living in the Bay Area, i see virtually all of the warrior games. The guy really is an outstanding talent. I agree with some posts that in the short run he's likely going to be less effective without Baron Davis, but I do think in the long run he'll be a fringe all star caliber player (as a combo gaurd), with decent PG skills. That doesn't mean he's necessarily the perfect player for the Kings, but I wouldn't turn down the right deal for him.

By the way, I seriously question the assertion that he's on the trading block. He brings a tremendous amount of excitement to the warriors (see the fan reaction in his first game back from his injury.) He's not what's wrong with the team.

 

[bajaden]

Well, I'll start of by saying that I dont know who you guys want if you dont want Monta ellis .. get real, we arent getting Lebron, Howard, Wade, Paul or Williams.

Next, I never said give up martin, a pick and a big man, I said 2 of those things ( 2 of 4 , big men including hawes or thompson ... and also getting one back btw )

Thats besides the point anyways, we dont know who the kings could/would trade for ellis .. but im starting to think some people here dont want us to get anyone ever. I dont understand the Boozer hate but whatever .. the Ellis hate I really dont get.

Ellis is still very young ... you cant say that he cant play the point and then go over on another thread and claim teague, rubio, curry, jennings or whoever you get in the draft can. I really think his assist numbers were low last year because he didnt play the point all that much ( remember baron davis? ) .. He's quicker and taller than any point guard in the league AND he has an above average handle .. I dont know about his court vision, but I bet its better than any rookie your going to draft.

WE have to take chances on guys like ellis. Thats how we need to operate .. I love martin ( I have his jersey ) but he is a horrible defensive player and really doesnt do anything but score. I dont think ellis is a fanchise player yet, but he has a shot .. something I really dont think Martin has. I guess we'll see how he does now that he is back from injury running the point .. maybe im wrong and maybe he cant play it or he doesnt want to play it .. but thats how I feel at the moment, especially because of how poor this draft is .. if rubio doesnt come out we should probly go with another position ( griffin most likely, if we land #1 ) and we'll still be needing a point guard.


anyways .. I would like to hear what players you guys think we should go after .. keep in mind Jordan is retired ..

Well you said a lot here and most of it is pure nonsense. We drafted Hawes and Thompson. They both show promise of becoming very good players. Maybe in Thompson's case, even a great player. And you want to trade one of them and a first round pick and Martin for a player thats just came back from an injury and really has no true postion. This dude is not a point guard. He's a 6'3" shooting guard.

This is not how you build a team. You build through the draft and keep the players that show promise and let them grow together. You don't build a team by having a revolving door of players and coaches. What your looking for is a quick fix, and it doesn't exist. Years ago the Kings front office traded Mike Woodson, Larry Drew and a couple of first round picks to the Clippers for Derek Smith. Another player coming back from a knee injury. A quick fix! It set the franchise back a couple of years. Then they traded for Ralph Sampson. Another player coming off injuries. Another quick fix! It set the franchise back another couple of years. In both of these deals the Kings gave up draft picks and good young players. Thorpe went on to win a championship with Houston.

Also! Just because someone doesn't like your trade, it doesn't mean that they hate the players that you proposed we trade for. It just means we don't like the deal. I don't hate Boozer or Ellis. I wouldn't mind having either of them on my team. Just not at the price you propose.

 

[Larry89]

After reading some stuff in this thread I had a nose bleed

 

[AriesMar27]

if you guys want ellis why dont you pray that the kings draft jrue holiday... it'll save the team millions for the exact same type of player....

 

[nbrans]

if you guys want ellis why dont you pray that the kings draft jrue holiday... it'll save the team millions for the exact same type of player....

They're completely different types of players.

 

[AriesMar27]

a pretty good but not great undersized sg is a pretty good but not great undersized sg...

ellis is good but he isnt great and he's short at his position. iverson is/was a great undersized sg. dwayne wade is a great undersized sg(not by much though)...

martin is just as good but is actuall a full sized sg, kinda frail but at least he is just as tall as his opponent. neither are great defenders so i dont see the point of trading for ellis unless martin thinks that he can handle playing sf for 40 minutes a game.

holiday will probably become a better player than ellis. its amazing how players cant learn to play different positions effectively. who tells them that they should be shooting guards when they are only 6'3? someone should have told them to learn how to play the point. if i were in college playing ball and was only 6'3 i would want to learn to play the point.

 

[MassachusettsKingsFan]

Well you said a lot here and most of it is pure nonsense. We drafted Hawes and Thompson. They both show promise of becoming very good players. Maybe in Thompson's case, even a great player. And you want to trade one of them and a first round pick and Martin for a player thats just came back from an injury and really has no true postion. This dude is not a point guard. He's a 6'3" shooting guard.

This is not how you build a team. You build through the draft and keep the players that show promise and let them grow together. You don't build a team by having a revolving door of players and coaches. What your looking for is a quick fix, and it doesn't exist. Years ago the Kings front office traded Mike Woodson, Larry Drew and a couple of first round picks to the Clippers for Derek Smith. Another player coming back from a knee injury. A quick fix! It set the franchise back a couple of years. Then they traded for Ralph Sampson. Another player coming off injuries. Another quick fix! It set the franchise back another couple of years. In both of these deals the Kings gave up draft picks and good young players. Thorpe went on to win a championship with Houston.

Also! Just because someone doesn't like your trade, it doesn't mean that they hate the players that you proposed we trade for. It just means we don't like the deal. I don't hate Boozer or Ellis. I wouldn't mind having either of them on my team. Just not at the price you propose.

well, I didnt say martin, our 1st and thompson or hawes .. so thats that.

I said two of those four .. but thats not even the point I was trying to make.. the point is that, In my opinion, many kings fans dont want us to acquire anyone. And your wrong about one thing, Ellis is by no means a quick fix .. he is still very young.

Im not saying you, but certain people even started a thread about Cisco at the point .. cmon now, Ellis can play it better than Cisco at the least .. can he play it? I dont know .. but I deffinetly believe he has time to develope some pg skills and be as good as a Iverson when it comes to playing point .. sand saying Jrue Holliday is going to be a better player is foolish .. he hasnt proved a thing yet.

hate to break it to yah, but the chances of hawes/greene/thompson becoming all stars is slim .. not saying they arent good players, but we need more than just having those guys develope and I think the next big piece we aquire has to come through trade rather than free agency, because the bigger market teams are going to snag all the good players right up..

 

[Prince_XY]

#5 - Hawes ( 7' 0" )
#4 - Thompson ( 6' 11' )
#3 - Greene ( 6' 11 )
#2 - Martin ( 6' 7" )
#1 - Ellis ( 6' 3" )

Hmmm.

Young, tall, and athletic. All 5 are very promising young players talent-wise.

This can be a very good team - possibly an elite team in the future. Especially true if the team can develop good chemistry, poise, and everyone commits to giving their best effort in every game ( especially in defense ) to win. Ellis doesn't have to be a pure point guard if everyone plays good teamwork.

My only concern with Ellis is his health.

 

[ParniValjak]

#5 - Hawes ( 7' 0" )
#4 - Thompson ( 6' 11' )
#3 - Greene ( 6' 11 )
#2 - Martin ( 6' 7" )
#1 - Ellis ( 6' 3" )

Hmmm.

Young, tall, and athletic. All 5 are very promising young players talent-wise.

This can be a very good team - possibly an elite team in the future. Especially true if the team can develop good chemistry, poise, and everyone commits to giving their best effort in every game ( especially in defense ) to win. Ellis doesn't have to be a pure point guard if everyone plays good teamwork.

My only concern with Ellis is his health.

Each and every member of that team would break out into a macarena dance every time the team gets to double digit assist count because that phenomenon would be as rare as rocking horse ****!

 

[mac]

well, I didnt say martin, our 1st and thompson or hawes .. so thats that.

I said two of those four .. but thats not even the point I was trying to make..

Err you do realise that with Ellis' salary we'd definitely have to give up Martin right?