Welcome Shaq!

If someone were to ask me the best way for Shaq to make up for his comments in the past, given the recent troubles of this organization, that buying a stake and helping out the organization in any way he could would be right up there.

I like the move, but Brick's argument has a lot of merit. The best organizations in sports are usually built on some continuity through tradition. As mentioned earlier, the Lakers are an excellent example. The Cetics had that going for them all the way up until the 90s. Conversely, look at how the Bulls jettisoned just about everyone involved in their title years in 1999, only recently getting back to the ECF.
 
As long as Shaq is not occupying Coachie's old seat every game behind team bench and tasked at practice with helping Kings shoot free throws better - I'm all in!
 
If someone were to ask me the best way for Shaq to make up for his comments in the past, given the recent troubles of this organization, that buying a stake and helping out the organization in any way he could would be right up there.

I like the move, but Brick's argument has a lot of merit. The best organizations in sports are usually built on some continuity through tradition. As mentioned earlier, the Lakers are an excellent example. The Cetics had that going for them all the way up until the 90s. Conversely, look at how the Bulls jettisoned just about everyone involved in their title years in 1999, only recently getting back to the ECF.


I think too many people take that kind of stuff too serious and let it dwell with them long after it should. It's fine to get into it when we were playing the Lakers and he was making those comments. Hell, I might have even called him a Jackass a few times. But it's long been over with and there is no reason any of us should hold a grudge if he's wanting to come to help us. He doesn't owe us anything, let alone an apology.
 
If someone were to ask me the best way for Shaq to make up for his comments in the past, given the recent troubles of this organization, that buying a stake and helping out the organization in any way he could would be right up there.

I like the move, but Brick's argument has a lot of merit. The best organizations in sports are usually built on some continuity through tradition. As mentioned earlier, the Lakers are an excellent example. The Cetics had that going for them all the way up until the 90s. Conversely, look at how the Bulls jettisoned just about everyone involved in their title years in 1999, only recently getting back to the ECF.
For every example of a best organization you can think of, there is an organization that hasn't gone this route. Spurs? Lakers have mostly remained good by having the resources to acquire some of the top players in the game. The Lakers most successful coach came from the Bulls. I think this argument has little to no merit.
 
For every example of a best organization you can think of, there is an organization that hasn't gone this route. Spurs? Lakers have mostly remained good by having the resources to acquire some of the top players in the game. The Lakers most successful coach came from the Bulls. I think this argument has little to no merit.

At the GM level the Lakers have had continuity going back a long time now. They are a stable organization and they breed the right people. The Spurs hadn't achieved much before Pop and Buford arrived, so there wasn't much to begin with there. The Heat have had Reilly as the constant for nearly two decades now, and how have they performed in that time? Of course not all title winners have that level of continuity, but most of the best organizations do.
 
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Shaq talks about the kings and I love how he says he is gonna teach cousins to want to kill his oppenets when they play.

He says at the end
"I don't want him to be giggling on the court like Dwight Howard"
 
I think you misunderstood my point, baja. A few people on a message board using hyperbole to complain about a move that they don't like does not mean the Maloof's have had a poisoning effect on the fans. When I don't take others' posts so seriously things don't seem so bad. Makes my reading and discussing easier that way.

Well, to some extent, I think were on the same page. At least about not taking it seriously. All I meant about the Maloofs and poison, is that when your on a ship headed in the wrong direction for a long time, and everything management does only makes it worse, you tend to put up fences, and always expect the worse. You become conditioned to a losing culture. That's one of the reasons I never thought tanking was a good idea. It can be a hard thing to reverse. After a while, you expect to lose. You mistrust anyone that try's to convince you otherwise. To many disappointments leads to low expectations.

You can only listen to so many promises of success that fail. Eventually, everyone looks like a snake oil salesman. You tend to mistrust everyone, and every move that's made. Now that may be a bit of an overstatement, but I do think a fan base can become jaded after a period of time, and its not their fault. Its a slow process that happens without you even realizing it. Instead of the happy, excited fan that was used to winning and cheering for Webber and Vlade, your now a somewhat bitter, and angry fan with low expectations. And you've forgotten what it feels like to expect success.

This isn't a description of everyone. Were all different, and we all react to things differently. Some people have addictive personalities, and some don't. Two people can witness a horrible accident. One can walk away with little effect, and the other may be scarred for life. Neither reaction is the right or perfect one. And strangely, both may be envious of each other. I think I've written far too much in a thread about Shaq. But hey, its something to do.
 
I don't feel as strongly about this either way as some of you. You don't have a career like Shaqs without having some wisdom to impart. Yeah, he's an idiot sometimes but are people seriously saying arguably the most dominant big man in history isn't going to be able to help DeMarcus? People worried about Shaqs attitude, I doubt he's going to come in here with a bad attitude. It would defeat the whole purpose of even working with Cuz. Shaq really isn't as dumb as he makes out.

Now that doesn't mean I love the hiring. But it's really unlikely that it's going to do any harm. I know it's strange due to the rivalry and comments made by him in the past, but if he helps us now, and helps Cuz reach stardom, I can move on from the past. Nothing is going to change it anyway. No point being bitter, it's small time mentality.

Also, as an aside, I think Shaq is not getting half enough credit for the skill he possessed by some. Of course his work ethic wasn't the best due to his physical dominance, but Shaq had fantastic footwork, was an excellent passer, had good hands and had an unstoppable assortment of little hooks and bank shots around the rim. His ball-handling was actually pretty good for a big, too. It's ignorant to say he was only as dominant as he was due solely to his physical freakishness. Just not true.
 
At the GM level the Lakers have had continuity going back a long time now. They are a stable organization and they breed the right people. The Spurs hadn't achieved much before Pop and Buford arrived, so there wasn't much to begin with there. The Heat have had Reilly as the constant for nearly two decades now, and how have they performed in that time? Of course not all title winners have that level of continuity, but most of the best organizations do.

Based on where we are, we are more or less like the Spurs then. Before the new regime took over, we were a broken franchise, no? Ever since the Magoofs dumped Adelman, it's been downhill, Petrie had his hands tied or just lost it and the Maloofs had ulterior motives rather than winning. Sometimes you have to start over. I mean we were not a stable organization at the point of sale of the franchise. Lets hope that everything in place leads to what we all want.
 
Well, to some extent, I think were on the same page. At least about not taking it seriously. All I meant about the Maloofs and poison, is that when your on a ship headed in the wrong direction for a long time, and everything management does only makes it worse, you tend to put up fences, and always expect the worse. You become conditioned to a losing culture. That's one of the reasons I never thought tanking was a good idea. It can be a hard thing to reverse. After a while, you expect to lose. You mistrust anyone that try's to convince you otherwise. To many disappointments leads to low expectations.

You can only listen to so many promises of success that fail. Eventually, everyone looks like a snake oil salesman. You tend to mistrust everyone, and every move that's made. Now that may be a bit of an overstatement, but I do think a fan base can become jaded after a period of time, and its not their fault. Its a slow process that happens without you even realizing it. Instead of the happy, excited fan that was used to winning and cheering for Webber and Vlade, your now a somewhat bitter, and angry fan with low expectations. And you've forgotten what it feels like to expect success.

Only in a few cases. The poison has worked in largely the opposite way. The problem is its easy and sloppy mentally to personify evil. Oh, they're the evil ones over there, and over here are the good ones. Ironically being a fan of an irrelevant ball bouncing exhibition is one of the few places where such simplistic thinking ever has legitimate cause -- you are relieved of nuanced thinking when they wear red, and you wear purple. Then its obvious they are evil and you are good. Many sports fans embrace sports fandom for exactly that simple release.

But even fan thinking should not apply as its happened here. Here the Maloofs were evil you see. Its easy, and quick, and simple and doesn't tax the brain much to make it out that way. The Maloofs just were evil. And now the new ownership is good. And that provides all the answers that are needed. That's the poison. That's the effect of all the Maloof antics.

The truth of course is that people aren't all good, and they aren't all evil. There are murderers who love their mom, their are philanthropists who had to step on necks to get in a position to help. And there were Maloofs, who from a basketball operations standpoint were the owners of the very best teams in franchise history...as well as later the owners during another dark age as they tried to steal it. What made their recent decisions "evil" was not that it was the Maloofs making those decisions, it was that the decisions sucked and/or had slimy motives. That's the "evil" as it applies to an NBA front office. And Vivek and Co. now making the current decisions has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the quality or "good/evil" of those decisions. Unless of course you have been poisoned, conditioned by the Maloof is evil chant, which was necessary to save the team, and the Vivek is good response natural to lavish upon a savior. Then its simple. Maloofs made evil moves. Vivek makes good ones. Which doesn't make you so much a Kings fan at the moment as a Vivek and Co. fan.

My standards for judging moves have never nudged once. They didn't nudge in 2002 when I lauded our front office's moves, in 2005 when I mocked them, in 2009-10 when I lauded them again, or the last few years when I have attacked them relentlessly. And they certainly haven't moved an inch just because a new rich guy stuck his name over the door. Off the court for Sacramento that's all nifty and good news. For the Sacramento Kings as a basketball team, that's irrelevant. All that matters is the moves. Make moves like the Kings have the last few years and you will suck, whether the Maloofs make them, Vivek makes them, Pat Riley makes them, or The Great Spaghetti Monster comes down from on high to make them. Make moves like the Kings did in the early 2000s and you will be great. And I don't care whether the Maloofs make them, Vivek, makes them, or whoever. But a great many putative Kings fans do.

In the classic logic square:

Maloof Move Vivek Move
Good Move Bad Move

There are a lot of people almost flat out denying the possibility of 2 of the 4 outcomes: Good Maloof Move (which is irrelevant) or Bad Vivek Move. There is your poison. Its a poison to the ability to reason.
 
I don't feel as strongly about this either way as some of you. You don't have a career like Shaqs without having some wisdom to impart. Yeah, he's an idiot sometimes but are people seriously saying arguably the most dominant big man in history isn't going to be able to help DeMarcus? People worried about Shaqs attitude, I doubt he's going to come in here with a bad attitude. It would defeat the whole purpose of even working with Cuz. Shaq really isn't as dumb as he makes out.

Shaq is obviously not going to come in with a bad attitude...intentionally.

It could work as: Shaq plays buddy, urges DeMarcus to dominate the skinny punks, joins him in an understanding me/us against the big man hating world fest.

But here is how it might not work:

1) Shaq is lazy, as usual, and loses interest/focus. Given a 4% ownership share that may or may not be less likely, who knows.

2) Remember Shaq's response to Dwight Howard? Remember the poison of the Shaq/Kobe relationship? Shaq is a big self promoting child. He has embarrassed himself over the Dwight thing time and time again simply because he felt threatened by Dwight. An all time great reduced to silly pettiness because Dwight might steal his Orlando thunder, or nickname etc. Kobe he pats on the head and call his sidekick. So here's how Shaq, without meaning it, can create tension: Shaq, who loves to be in the limelight, takes to talking for DeMarcus, to taking credit for his improvement, for making him the center he is today, introduces him as his little brother or project etc. etc. I don't guarantee that outcome, but man you would have to blind to not see that possibility out there. Shaq has never mentored anybody effectively in his life, because there is no room for anybody else around his giant ego.


I will say this too. Shaq as owner, if he does not **** up with Cousins, could virtually assure Cousins stays. That would be a very good thing. But now what does petulant Shaq do if there is tension with Boogie? If he feels threatened or dissed by him. I don't know the rest of the front office well enough yet to know if they let Shaq run Cousins out of town, but he's certainly the sort of ego/presence who could if its misapplied.
 
Shaq is obviously not going to come in with a bad attitude...intentionally.

It could work as: Shaq plays buddy, urges DeMarcus to dominate the skinny punks, joins him in an understanding me/us against the big man hating world fest.

But here is how it might not work:

1) Shaq is lazy, as usual, and loses interest/focus. Given a 4% ownership share that may or may not be less likely, who knows.

2) Remember Shaq's response to Dwight Howard? Remember the poison of the Shaq/Kobe relationship? Shaq is a big self promoting child. He has embarrassed himself over the Dwight thing time and time again simply because he felt threatened by Dwight. An all time great reduced to silly pettiness because Dwight might steal his Orlando thunder, or nickname etc. Kobe he pats on the head and call his sidekick. So here's how Shaq, without meaning it, can create tension: Shaq, who loves to be in the limelight, takes to talking for DeMarcus, to taking credit for his improvement, for making him the center he is today, introduces him as his little brother or project etc. etc. I don't guarantee that outcome, but man you would have to blind to not see that possibility out there. Shaq has never mentored anybody effectively in his life, because there is no room for anybody else around his giant ego.


I will say this too. Shaq as owner, if he does not **** up with Cousins, could virtually assure Cousins stays. That would be a very good thing. But now what does petulant Shaq do if there is tension with Boogie? If he feels threatened or dissed by him. I don't know the rest of the front office well enough yet to know if they let Shaq run Cousins out of town, but he's certainly the sort of ego/presence who could if its misapplied.


I don't disagree with any of that, I just think it's more on the unlikely side of the spectrum. That doesn't mean I think success is likely either. In all honesty, how many big men actually benefit hugely from these mentors? Not too many. It's more about things mentally clicking for a star level talent. Now I have no idea whether Shaq can get DeMarcus to realise what it takes to be a legit star. I'm just not going to panic overly about this until red flags start popping up, because having Shaq in the background, if he develops a good relationship with Cuz, makes it much more likely that Cuz stays here long term. Shaq and Cuz have similar personalities in that they're goofy/child-like, so they could be a good match. Problem is it could back-fire as they're both emotionally charged. And Shaq needs to be prepared not to over-react when Cuz challenges him and/or gets pissed.
 
Maybe people don't blindly say that because its Vivek and the new ownership, all their moves are great and maybe people give it more in depth thought than you think. I don't believe there is enough credit given by you to others on this forum if they don't agree with your point of view. So be it, in the end it doesn't matter but others are ready for change, and are very happy with the moves. All moves are fluid. It's a fluid process when rebuilding or transforming a franchise. There will be moves that don't work and then there will be moves that help. I just can't help but feel that everything you post is based on the assumption that Tyreke Evans was or is going to be a superstar or the answer and he was irreplaceable. Since that move in the Summer it's been a constant barrage of calling the owners, GM, and others low grade morons or something similar.

That's my rant for the day.
 
Maybe people don't blindly say that because its Vivek and the new ownership, all their moves are great and maybe people give it more in depth thought than you think. I don't believe there is enough credit given by you to others on this forum if they don't agree with your point of view. So be it, in the end it doesn't matter but others are ready for change, and are very happy with the moves. All moves are fluid. It's a fluid process when rebuilding or transforming a franchise. There will be moves that don't work and then there will be moves that help. I just can't help but feel that everything you post is based on the assumption that Tyreke Evans was or is going to be a superstar or the answer and he was irreplaceable. Since that move in the Summer it's been a constant barrage of calling the owners, GM, and others low grade morons or something similar.

That's my rant for the day.

If they have a good number of them haven't shown it to be so. There have been a lot more "You think a guy who came to the States with nothing and became a billionaire is not going to hire a good GM who makes the right moves?" posts or "You can't expect the FO to turn everything around in one offseason" or "the FO isn't done yet. More moves are coming, book it!" than there have been "This is why Carl Landry will work with us this time when he didn't the last time ... explanation. This is why I think our SF hole is filled for now ... explanation." posts. At least, that's what I've observed.

Anyway let's keep this about Shaq.
 
Yes you SHOULD care, and I find it blatantly offensive if you don't.

Where's the ****ing pride in being the SACRAMENTO Kings. In your own history. In YOUR significance?

Now frankly it doesn't effect me. I blew that little berg long ago. In some ways I fully understand how outsiders could come in and look down their noses at you and put you in the corner while they colonized your franchise and made it their own. Lots of big city folks to show you little bumpkins how its done and what a real NBA legacy looks like.

Or are there? Or should there be? What exactly does it mean to be a Sacramento King fan after all? If your own history and significance is denied or forgotten then who are you? Might as well just go become a Laker fan. Lots of pretty stars to pretend are yours there.


jeez, someone crap in your cereal?
 
Shaq is obviously not going to come in with a bad attitude...intentionally.

It could work as: Shaq plays buddy, urges DeMarcus to dominate the skinny punks, joins him in an understanding me/us against the big man hating world fest.

But here is how it might not work:

1) Shaq is lazy, as usual, and loses interest/focus. Given a 4% ownership share that may or may not be less likely, who knows.

2) Remember Shaq's response to Dwight Howard? Remember the poison of the Shaq/Kobe relationship? Shaq is a big self promoting child. He has embarrassed himself over the Dwight thing time and time again simply because he felt threatened by Dwight. An all time great reduced to silly pettiness because Dwight might steal his Orlando thunder, or nickname etc. Kobe he pats on the head and call his sidekick. So here's how Shaq, without meaning it, can create tension: Shaq, who loves to be in the limelight, takes to talking for DeMarcus, to taking credit for his improvement, for making him the center he is today, introduces him as his little brother or project etc. etc. I don't guarantee that outcome, but man you would have to blind to not see that possibility out there. Shaq has never mentored anybody effectively in his life, because there is no room for anybody else around his giant ego.


I will say this too. Shaq as owner, if he does not **** up with Cousins, could virtually assure Cousins stays. That would be a very good thing. But now what does petulant Shaq do if there is tension with Boogie? If he feels threatened or dissed by him. I don't know the rest of the front office well enough yet to know if they let Shaq run Cousins out of town, but he's certainly the sort of ego/presence who could if its misapplied.


It's all "what ifs" as it stands now. Personally, I don't think it has a chance in hell to go sour. Your whole argument is based off of this .00001% chance that this is a disaster ect ect ect. I don't think it's enough of a % to even worry about let alone spend days and days with post after post trying to convince others of my argument when it's as far fetched as yours.
 
No, but they did suggest it was ok to crap on my team's history.
Without them stepping up, there is no team history. That doesn't give them a blank check, but it should get them the benefit of the doubt, at least temporarily. More than one way to skin a cat (and as my avatar shows, I like cats).
 
Only in a few cases. The poison has worked in largely the opposite way. The problem is its easy and sloppy mentally to personify evil. Oh, they're the evil ones over there, and over here are the good ones. Ironically being a fan of an irrelevant ball bouncing exhibition is one of the few places where such simplistic thinking ever has legitimate cause -- you are relieved of nuanced thinking when they wear red, and you wear purple. Then its obvious they are evil and you are good. Many sports fans embrace sports fandom for exactly that simple release.

But even fan thinking should not apply as its happened here. Here the Maloofs were evil you see. Its easy, and quick, and simple and doesn't tax the brain much to make it out that way. The Maloofs just were evil. And now the new ownership is good. And that provides all the answers that are needed. That's the poison. That's the effect of all the Maloof antics.

The truth of course is that people aren't all good, and they aren't all evil. There are murderers who love their mom, their are philanthropists who had to step on necks to get in a position to help. And there were Maloofs, who from a basketball operations standpoint were the owners of the very best teams in franchise history...as well as later the owners during another dark age as they tried to steal it. What made their recent decisions "evil" was not that it was the Maloofs making those decisions, it was that the decisions sucked and/or had slimy motives. That's the "evil" as it applies to an NBA front office. And Vivek and Co. now making the current decisions has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the quality or "good/evil" of those decisions. Unless of course you have been poisoned, conditioned by the Maloof is evil chant, which was necessary to save the team, and the Vivek is good response natural to lavish upon a savior. Then its simple. Maloofs made evil moves. Vivek makes good ones. Which doesn't make you so much a Kings fan at the moment as a Vivek and Co. fan.

My standards for judging moves have never nudged once. They didn't nudge in 2002 when I lauded our front office's moves, in 2005 when I mocked them, in 2009-10 when I lauded them again, or the last few years when I have attacked them relentlessly. And they certainly haven't moved an inch just because a new rich guy stuck his name over the door. Off the court for Sacramento that's all nifty and good news. For the Sacramento Kings as a basketball team, that's irrelevant. All that matters is the moves. Make moves like the Kings have the last few years and you will suck, whether the Maloofs make them, Vivek makes them, Pat Riley makes them, or The Great Spaghetti Monster comes down from on high to make them. Make moves like the Kings did in the early 2000s and you will be great. And I don't care whether the Maloofs make them, Vivek, makes them, or whoever. But a great many putative Kings fans do.

In the classic logic square:

Maloof Move Vivek Move
Good Move Bad Move

There are a lot of people almost flat out denying the possibility of 2 of the 4 outcomes: Good Maloof Move (which is irrelevant) or Bad Vivek Move. There is your poison. Its a poison to the ability to reason.

Well, you went a lot of places I didn't go. Yes, I did refer to the Maloofs, but I was mostly referring to the results, of which they happened to be a part. Regardless of who the owners were, a climate of losing was created. Rename the owner Godzilla if you will. All I care about is the direction the team took, and how the climate that was created can not only poison the team, but the fan base. Losing mentalities are hard to reverse if left in place too long. Particularly if you don't have a couple of elite players to help in that regard.

I'm not calling the Maloofs the bad guys, and Vivek and Co the good guys. There's no doubt that for a period of time, the Maloofs were loved here. At the moment, the new owners are loved here. All that can change of course, just like it did with the Maloofs. I think the difference between you and I comes down to two different approaches. I'm not one to just jump to conclusions about people and decisions that they may have made. Give me a project, and I'll sit and study it for two weeks before I lift a hand toward starting it. I care about results, and I'm a believer that haste makes waste. As a result, I won't pass judgement on someone's plan, until I see the entire plan. Until that happens, its just a puzzle to me with a lot of the pieces missing.

I wasn't always that way. When I was young I made snap judgments on just about everything, and I ended up being wrong as many times as I was right, maybe more. So from your point of view, I may be late to the party with criticism at times. In this instance with new ownership, I'm going to be patient. I'm not going to be critical of a move they make, just because I don't quite understand why they made it. I was as confused as everyone else by the Landry move. I didn't see it as disastrous, but I didn't see Landry as a big need. Unless your contemplating another move sometime in the future. A move that I'd know nothing about.

As I've stated many times, I'm a results oriented person, and I don't think anyone can possibly judge the results without one game being played, and at least a couple of seasons of drafting and making trades having passed. Well, obviously you can pass judgement! You can call them stupid, or rank amateurs if you want. But from my perspective that's premature. Which gets back to my original point. To me its premature, but its actually quite normal, when the team culture has been nothing but losing for as long as it has, regardless of whose responsible. The fans have already heard too many pep talks before every season. Just because someone new is leading the cheer, it doesn't change the negative vibe that's been attached to this team. Only positive results will change that.

So because my approach is different than yours, it doesn't mean I'm giving them a free pass. I can be as critical as you, but at the same time, I'd like to believe that my criticism is fair, and not just reactionary. I'm not saying there's a right or wrong way, I'm just telling you my way. I'll certainly agree that your way is far more entertaining than mine.;)
 
So one of our worst enemies, who thinks he is Superman, puts on a Jersey that says "Shaqramento" and might possibly be involved with Cousin's actual training and mental health?
 
Let's think of it this way. A year ago, the names Chris Mullin, Mitch Richmond (exception), or Shaq wwould never be assiocated with the 'measley Kings.' They probably wouldn't vene be mentioned in the same sentence. Today, all three of them are a part of the organization. Things are becoming much more positive, we are getting big names into the franchise, whether or not the big names can be of help, though, remains to be seen. But we've already taken giant leaps toward positive news that we would never see about our team with the Maloofs as owners.
 
Based on where we are, we are more or less like the Spurs then. Before the new regime took over, we were a broken franchise, no? Ever since the Magoofs dumped Adelman, it's been downhill, Petrie had his hands tied or just lost it and the Maloofs had ulterior motives rather than winning. Sometimes you have to start over. I mean we were not a stable organization at the point of sale of the franchise. Lets hope that everything in place leads to what we all want.

We can only hope we get like the Spurs ;)
 
im hoping Shaq can teach Cousins about being stronger around the hoop. he tends to go up soft and miss or get blocked alot. he needs to go up strong, like the time he bullied Derrick Favors and dunked on him after a offensive rebound last season
 
im hoping Shaq can teach Cousins about being stronger around the hoop. he tends to go up soft and miss or get blocked alot. he needs to go up strong, like the time he bullied Derrick Favors and dunked on him after a offensive rebound last season

But again, Shaq is not an assistant coach. It worries me that people are going to continually bug him/hold him accountable for Cousins development. I'm sure he said it as a nice gesture that he'd like to give Cousins some pointers and help him out if he needed something, that doesn't mean he needs to be burdened with it. He's a part owner
 
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