Welcome Nique Clifford

[gunks]

I like Carter as a bench defensive guard. Keon could actually work well as a starting 1, if you had Clifford and Murray with him at the 2 & 3. His shooting % was already elite and now I've seen signs that he is a much better shooter off the dribble.

I'm a believer in the Keon, Clifford, Keegan crew + one or two high draft picks. IF this franchise wanted to do a quick 3-4 year reboot, we have the goods.

But who am I kidding, short sighted moves until Vivek dies or sells!

 

[KingsFanSince85]

Don't really get the Knecht hate from the LA base. It's another Kings thing where you have a franchise notorious for destroying potential. 16 ppg on 46/40 splits from 2 and 3 as a starter last season is pretty good. It's almost like Marvin Bagley, say what you will, dude put up numbers in his minutes that if Keegan Murray were doing that consistently he'd be maxed out right now. So far Knecht is kind of having a start like Malik Monk had, just has to find a team that appreciates his skills I guess.

OR, he’s just not as good as you think he is or will be. Time will tell.

You don’t get the hate, while many others don’t get the love. Not yet anyways.

 

[NiNetNiNe]

We have some nice young pieces. Not that it would ever happen, but something like Clifford, LaVine, Murray, Raynaud, and Cardwell could be a fun starting five. Four people that can shoot threes, and one guy in Cardwell that can guard 1-5 and was a lockdown defender in college. Use Cardwell like a Ben Wallace and I’m sure Clifford could find him for lots of lobs.

 

[KingsFanSince85]

Still put up numbers. At the time you play that 36 mpg and get out on a high via trade if you're smart. This is the Kings were talking about here so all of the "busts" that have come and gone doesn't change the fact that the Kings are still the Kings. The one constant becomes more clear by the day.

The one constant is you being negative toward the KINGS at every turn. And citing their mistakes to somehow validate your unsubstantiated opinions on unproven players you happen to like is rather weak IMO.

While the KINGS org surely has made a lot of mistakes to get them into the seemingly never ending mediocrity hole there are in, pretending that they ever do anything right is disingenuous.

 

[Joshyjosh31]

I'm a believer in the Keon, Clifford, Keegan crew + one or two high draft picks. IF this franchise wanted to do a quick 3-4 year reboot, we have the goods.

But who am I kidding, short sighted moves until Vivek dies or sells!

We do and a good draft coming up also a chance to add Kuminga at the deadline could be a quick rebuild

 

[The_Jamal]

Something a bit hotter, given your estimate that Keon will average just 16 minutes on the floor this season, would be that Clifford also averages more floor time than Ellis?

I honestly don't know. My guess right now is that Christie is going to really lean into the vets heavily to start the year and the young guys are going to get the leftovers. We look to be gearing up Saric for a big role sans Keegan and Russ certainly didn't sign here to play a small 10-12 MPG bench role. Monk also let slip that Russ "played small 4 and he could guard 4's", so we probably see a lot of that early in the year without Keegan too. While Domas and Keegan are out, I think something like this is pretty likely

Dennis 28 || Monk 20
LaVine 32 || Keon 16
DDR 32 || Nique 16
Saric 20 || Russ 20 || IJ 8
Eubanks 25 || Cardwell/Maxime/IJ 19

I will say I think Nique has an advantage with the Perry/Christie regime because he was picked by them. Keon/Carter were not, so they don't have the same loyalty to those guys.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I honestly don't know. My guess right now is that Christie is going to really lean into the vets heavily to start the year and the young guys are going to get the leftovers. We look to be gearing up Saric for a big role sans Keegan and Russ certainly didn't sign here to play a small 10-12 MPG bench role. Monk also let slip that Russ "played small 4 and he could guard 4's", so we probably see a lot of that early in the year without Keegan too. While Domas and Keegan are out, I think something like this is pretty likely

Dennis 28 || Monk 20
LaVine 32 || Keon 16
DDR 32 || Nique 16
Saric 20 || Russ 20 || IJ 8
Eubanks 25 || Cardwell/Maxime/IJ 19

I will say I think Nique has an advantage with the Perry/Christie regime because he was picked by them. Keon/Carter were not, so they don't have the same loyalty to those guys.

Things would be a lot more clear, had they been able to trade Monk

 

[The_Jamal]

Things would be a lot more clear, had they been able to trade Monk

Either that, or don't bring on Russ and Dennis and clog this thing like crazy.

Remove those 2, you had room for Carter/Keon/Nique all off the bench behind Monk-LaVine-DDR as the "starters"

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

Either that, or don't bring on Russ and Dennis and clog this thing like crazy.

Remove those 2, you had room for Carter/Keon/Nique all off the bench behind Monk-LaVine-DDR as the "starters"

Monk came out and let everyone know that he wasn't confident playing lead guard and didn't want to. He sort of tanked that option himself.

Are they serious about playing Westbrook at the 4 on the regular?

 

[The_Jamal]

Monk came out and let everyone know that he wasn't confident playing lead guard and didn't want to. He sort of tanked that option himself.

Are they serious about playing Westbrook at the 4 on the regular?

Eh, frankly, I don't care? Then he can come off the bench and Keon can start and we have a PG by committee approach with Domas/DDR handling most of the creation.

If we weren't going to make fundamental changes to this roster and take a "gap year", then we should have set ourselves up by just standing pat and clearing the runway for the kids to have real rotation roles. Head into next off-season with a real minutes sample on these young guys and have a better understanding of who's a real future piece and who isn't.

Instead, outside of Keegan and maybe Nique, they're all getting pushed down the bench.

 

[Tetsujin]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1980081380559355995

 

[TheMobb]

I honestly don't know. My guess right now is that Christie is going to really lean into the vets heavily to start the year and the young guys are going to get the leftovers. We look to be gearing up Saric for a big role sans Keegan and Russ certainly didn't sign here to play a small 10-12 MPG bench role. Monk also let slip that Russ "played small 4 and he could guard 4's", so we probably see a lot of that early in the year without Keegan too. While Domas and Keegan are out, I think something like this is pretty likely

Dennis 28 || Monk 20
LaVine 32 || Keon 16
DDR 32 || Nique 16
Saric 20 || Russ 20 || IJ 8
Eubanks 25 || Cardwell/Maxime/IJ 19

I will say I think Nique has an advantage with the Perry/Christie regime because he was picked by them. Keon/Carter were not, so they don't have the same loyalty to those guys.

Monk and Keon have to play more than that. There’s no way Saric and Russ should be getting more minutes than them even if it means going small.

 

[macadocious]

If Nique was a top 5 pick, he would be the bell of the ball. Kings, age and later draft range has him still ignored. This will change by GM15 assuming he gets consistent playtime.

 

[hrdboild]

That's why I'm intrigued by a lineup for the future of Ellis, Clifford, and Murray at the 1,2,3. Lots of length at the point of attack and on the wings, which should really help the ever present 3pt defensive issue....and if Clifford shows enough in initiating an offensive set, it could work effectively with a 3&D guard in Ellis...who has looked improved off the dribble. Also puts Keon in a more advantageous spot physically and weight wise, where he would usually be matched up on their smaller guard....with all 3 of them able to switch 1-3 and Murray able to switch 1-4.

Then the priority is a long defensive presence at the 4 to compliment Sabonis.....or look to trade Sabonis for a good 4 and then add a defensive 5

That's the lineup I want to see too. Ellis can defend opposing point guards and then on the other end of the floor we have Nique as the primary ballhandler and Ellis as a reliable floor spacer for him to kick the ball out to. Keegan can play either forward position because he's so well-rounded defensively and that gives us some flexibility in how we fill the other two positions in the starting lineup. I would even think about playing Dylan Cardwell at the 5 when facing taller lineups (like Dallas) or after a Sabonis trade. If we have another scorer (someone like Kuminga) at PF we really won't need a lot of offense from that C position, just someone who can be a lob target, set good screens, and occasionally score on put backs.

It would be nice if we can figure out a way to artfully phase DeRozan, LaVine, Monk, Schröder, and Westbrook into backup roles or otherwise get them out of the way of the better defensive lineup we already have waiting on the bench to fill those PG, SG, and SF positions and also get at least one lottery pick in the process. This roster is a mess right now but it looks like there's an easy path to transforming this team into an up and comer quickly. Scott Perry hasn't won me over yet, but the Nique Clifford pick is already looking like a steal and hitting on late first round picks is the type of move which will win a GM awards.

 

[dude12]

I would love it if we went Schroeder, Lavine, Nique, IJ and Domas and follow that with Westy, Monk, Ellis, DDR and Eubanks/Cardwell…….left out Carter cause I know he’s going to get hosed.

 

[The_Jamal]

That's the lineup I want to see too. Ellis can defend opposing point guards and then on the other end of the floor we have Nique as the primary ballhandler and Ellis as a reliable floor spacer for him to kick the ball out to. Keegan can play either forward position because he's so well-rounded defensively and that gives us some flexibility in how we fill the other two positions in the starting lineup. I would even think about playing Dylan Cardwell at the 5 when facing taller lineups (like Dallas) or after a Sabonis trade. If we have another scorer (someone like Kuminga) at PF we really won't need a lot of offense from that C position, just someone who can be a lob target, set good screens, and occasionally score on put backs.

It would be nice if we can figure out a way to artfully phase DeRozan, LaVine, Monk, Schröder, and Westbrook into backup roles or otherwise get them out of the way of the better defensive lineup we already have waiting on the bench to fill those PG, SG, and SF positions and also get at least one lottery pick in the process. This roster is a mess right now but it looks like there's an easy path to transforming this team into an up and comer quickly. Scott Perry hasn't won me over yet, but the Nique Clifford pick is already looking like a steal and hitting on late first round picks is the type of move which will win a GM awards.

I think the only way they get truly phased out is with a disaster 2-12 type start and we start selling off pieces in December and before the trade deadline. Which, I think is entirely possible with no Keegan and depending on how long this Domas injury lingers.

 

[Tetsujin]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1980372745335779403

I uhh don’t think we need to worry about Deebo getting mad at Nique getting minutes.

 

[Kingster]

Acquiring Westbrook to mentor Clifford makes no sense. If you want to do something like that management should have acquired CP3, who has 10x the brain power for the pg position than Westbrook. Westbrook has never had a head for the pg position in his entire career so why should he now?

LaVine is a stopgap, not a long term answer for a guard to complement Clifford. Lavine is truly one of a kind. Not only does he not make others better on his team, the others don't make him better either. He could have the best screener in NBA history on his team and he would avoid the screen and then find a way to shake and bake at the 3-point line with a defender in face before jacking it up.

Christie is too much. It's "pressure" on him having Clifford on his team. Oh, the pressure. What is he going to do with this young talent?? How is he going to cope? Are people going to get mad at him because he plays Clifford over other lesser but more geriatric talents? Or the other way around? Christie is already starting to manage expectations when it comes to his lineup. Not what I want to see from a coach.

 

[NiNetNiNe]

That's the lineup I want to see too. Ellis can defend opposing point guards and then on the other end of the floor we have Nique as the primary ballhandler and Ellis as a reliable floor spacer for him to kick the ball out to. Keegan can play either forward position because he's so well-rounded defensively and that gives us some flexibility in how we fill the other two positions in the starting lineup. I would even think about playing Dylan Cardwell at the 5 when facing taller lineups (like Dallas) or after a Sabonis trade. If we have another scorer (someone like Kuminga) at PF we really won't need a lot of offense from that C position, just someone who can be a lob target, set good screens, and occasionally score on put backs.

It would be nice if we can figure out a way to artfully phase DeRozan, LaVine, Monk, Schröder, and Westbrook into backup roles or otherwise get them out of the way of the better defensive lineup we already have waiting on the bench to fill those PG, SG, and SF positions and also get at least one lottery pick in the process. This roster is a mess right now but it looks like there's an easy path to transforming this team into an up and comer quickly. Scott Perry hasn't won me over yet, but the Nique Clifford pick is already looking like a steal and hitting on late first round picks is the type of move which will win a GM awards.

I would even be ok with keeping LaVine as the main scorer. A lineup of Clifford, LaVine, Murray, Raynaud, and Cardwell would be pretty fun to watch. Good size all-around, and competent scorers 1-4.

You have you alpha scorer in LaVine. Once DeRozan left the Bulls, LaVines scoring was off the charts in every category. He is also a solid man defender.

Murray can go back to being a point specialist. He won’t be needed to carry the offensive load, just defend and shoot.

Clifford has shown borderline elite passing vision. He was making passes you only see the best do, he was passing people open like Doncic and Halliburton do. He use to play point guard until he had a growth spurt, and it shows. He is also a solid defender and shooter.

Raynaud seems like he would do well as the PF. He is agile enough to defend the position and is long enough to catch up if a guard beats him off the dribble on a switch. He is also a soldier three point shooter.

Then you have Cardwell who was considered a lockdown defender 1-5, who won’t get burned on a switch and can block shots. Cardwell can be our “Ben Wallace” type player. He doesn’t need to score a lot, just be a dog down low and get the rebounds and dunk.

 

[Kingster]

What is a point guard really, it's all playmaking anyway. Who is Nique? A point foward, a lot like another supposed Kings crush in Kuz. The difference is Clifford has a lot more polish, a brain, and more pass than shoot crazy garbage lol. He's like Kuzma with Harrison Barnes' mindset. Some of it looks like Hali in a way too. He doesn't do stupid things which could limit the numbers he puts up at their top shelf but it'll make him more impactful. The next thing would be to see how well he can pull off drive and dish. Can he get into the paint at will and collapse defenses consistently? That's kind of what defines a PG these days. Most PG's take the ball into the restricted zone and dribble out consistently.

He's not going to get into the paint at will and collapse defenses consistently with incredible first step quickness. He has to be more like Halliburton, using screens to get the matchups he wants and the space he needs. It's more of a cerebral process for him, just like with Halliburton who also does not blow by everybody with Fox-like quickness. It's this cerebral part of the game that Clifford should continue to get better at with more experience and good coaching.

 

[SacTownKid]

I'm going to predict that Clifford averages more floor time this season than Carter. That may or may not put me in the hater category. haha

Well obviously he's a Perry fav and plays a position where there aren't a ton of bodies. The Kings wanted more PG play out of Carter and we've already seen it so far.

 

[SacTownKid]

Eh, with a different regime out here i can’t say that but i get it. “Still put up numbers” is something that most GM’s and scouts aren’t easily fooled by. Bagley just isn’t a very good player when it comes to contributing in the win column and not even Geoff Petrie in his prime without the Magoofs screwing us over would have the power to convince someone otherwise IMO.

This team quite literally had years where they didn't even have many players that could put up big numbers reliably. That vs. the contrary, yeah numbers are better than nothing. In the last 5 years or so the value in pure numbers have indeed crashed somewhat because almost anyone with enough opportunity can put up numbers these days.

 

[SacTownKid]

The one constant is you being negative toward the KINGS at every turn. And citing their mistakes to somehow validate your unsubstantiated opinions on unproven players you happen to like is rather weak IMO.

While the KINGS org surely has made a lot of mistakes to get them into the seemingly never ending mediocrity hole there are in, pretending that they ever do anything right is disingenuous.

One constant? OK, right. Fact is fact and history is history.

C'mon, you're being a little negative there right? lol.

 

[hrdboild]

I would even be ok with keeping LaVine as the main scorer. A lineup of Clifford, LaVine, Murray, Raynaud, and Cardwell would be pretty fun to watch. Good size all-around, and competent scorers 1-4.

You have you alpha scorer in LaVine. Once DeRozan left the Bulls, LaVines scoring was off the charts in every category. He is also a solid man defender.

Murray can go back to being a point specialist. He won’t be needed to carry the offensive load, just defend and shoot.

Clifford has shown borderline elite passing vision. He was making passes you only see the best do, he was passing people open like Doncic and Halliburton do. He use to play point guard until he had a growth spurt, and it shows. He is also a solid defender and shooter.

Raynaud seems like he would do well as the PF. He is agile enough to defend the position and is long enough to catch up if a guard beats him off the dribble on a switch. He is also a soldier three point shooter.

Then you have Cardwell who was considered a lockdown defender 1-5, who won’t get burned on a switch and can block shots. Cardwell can be our “Ben Wallace” type player. He doesn’t need to score a lot, just be a dog down low and get the rebounds and dunk.

The thing is Keon Ellis is not only younger, cheaper, and a better defender... he's also a better shooter! Keon's career 3pt % is 42.9% to LaVine's 39.1%. And Keon can defend smaller PGs that LaVine struggles with and Clifford would likely struggle with as well. All LaVine does to distinguish himself from Keon Ellis in this scenario is take more shots (which is not a good thing since it's marginalizing Keegan Murray's role in the offense) and turn the ball over like a lead playmaker without providing much playmaking. I don't think we want another high usage guard sharing the backcourt with Clifford -- we want somebody who minimizes mistakes and hits open shots. That's Keon Ellis.

 

[ESP47]

The thing is Keon Ellis is not only younger, cheaper, and a better defender... he's also a better shooter! Keon's career 3pt % is 42.9% to LaVine's 39.1%. And Keon can defend smaller PGs that LaVine struggles with and Clifford would likely struggle with as well. All LaVine does to distinguish himself from Keon Ellis in this scenario is take more shots (which is not a good thing since it's marginalizing Keegan Murray's role in the offense) and turn the ball over like a lead playmaker without providing much playmaking. I don't think we want another high usage guard sharing the backcourt with Clifford -- we want somebody who minimizes mistakes and hits open shots. That's Keon Ellis.

I get the point you're making but you're really leaving out a lot of context as far as LaVine goes. He's a dynamic mid 20'sppg scorer while Keon is a sub 10ppg scorer. He's a great shooter, no doubt, but his shooting is way more limited than Zach's is. I really liked what I saw from Keon in that Laker game. It looked like he added some moves to his 3pt shooting but Zach is by far the best offensive weapon that we have. It's difficult to keep him off the court if the goal is to win.

 

[iowamcnabb]

If Lavine shoots 40 percent or better from three this year he probably belongs in the conversation for best shooter in the game after Curry doesn’t he? Given the attention paid to him and the consistency. That form is pure

 

[The_Jamal]

I get the point you're making but you're really leaving out a lot of context as far as LaVine goes. He's a dynamic mid 20'sppg scorer while Keon is a sub 10ppg scorer. He's a great shooter, no doubt, but his shooting is way more limited than Zach's is. I really liked what I saw from Keon in that Laker game. It looked like he added some moves to his 3pt shooting but Zach is by far the best offensive weapon that we have. It's difficult to keep him off the court if the goal is to win.

He's leaving out all the context on those numbers lol. I get he has a true hatred of all things Zach LaVine, who is a limited player in certain ways, but we don't need to continue disparage one of the best shooters/scorers in basketball.

Ideally, Keon and LaVine would both be 30+ MPG on this roster if we cared about winning.

 

[hrdboild]

I get the point you're making but you're really leaving out a lot of context as far as LaVine goes. He's a dynamic mid 20'sppg scorer while Keon is a sub 10ppg scorer. He's a great shooter, no doubt, but his shooting is way more limited than Zach's is. I really liked what I saw from Keon in that Laker game. It looked like he added some moves to his 3pt shooting but Zach is by far the best offensive weapon that we have. It's difficult to keep him off the court if the goal is to win.

Once upon a time I remember seeing a guard we all thought very highly of (Mike Bibby) lead the Kings in scoring at age 27 and then be out of the league by age 33. Chris Webber was 30 when he blew out his knee and was never the same player after that. Doug Christie started having foot problems at age 33 and his production fell off a cliff at that point.

Yes we also saw Lebron James start in his 21st consecutive All-Star game last season at age 40 but it is far more common for NBA players to decline rapidly in their early to mid 30s. Whatever Zach LaVine was at his peak, there's likely only a couple seasons worth of that LaVine left and that's if he manages to stay healthy. Now I personally think peak LaVine (his All-Star seasons of 2020-2021 and 2021-2022) is a terribly overrated player who personifies everything I hate about NBA basketball but even allowing that there are differences of opinion on that account, it makes so much more sense to start shifting the focus of this team now to a core group of players who are all 25 years old or younger and can build chemistry together and are all positive contributors to a team defense.

 

[hrdboild]

He's leaving out all the context on those numbers lol. I get he has a true hatred of all things Zach LaVine, who is a limited player in certain ways, but we don't need to continue disparage one of the best shooters/scorers in basketball.

Ideally, Keon and LaVine would both be 30+ MPG on this roster if we cared about winning.

I'm not sure anyone is capable of comprehending the full depth of my hatred for Zach LaVine's basketball talents. That is an iceberg big enough to sink the Hindenburg, if I may be so bold. But I think you at least get the gist of it.

 

[ShastaKingsFan]

I'm not sure anyone is capable of comprehending the full depth of my hatred for Zach LaVine's basketball talents. That is an iceberg big enough to sink the Hindenburg, if I may be so bold. But I think you at least get the gist of it.

The interesting thing is that Scott Perry did an interview some time ago, where he explained a full comprehension of what you're talking about