We need Kevin back (merged)

[Entity]

Most of our losses are coming because our offense is getting soooooo stagnat at times. not to mention our free throw shooting is costing us points. Kevin would spread the floor for us even more and take pressure off Tyreke and maybe take the double off of him.

If Tyreke doesn't score 20 for us every night we lose. We need another consistant scorer on the court. We have several guys that are capable but our only consistant scorers are Tyreke and Kevin.

 

[Showtime]

Hitting FT's is something that should get done, Martin or no Martin.

 

[Luv4Kings]

Count me in the group of people who can't wait till Martin gets back and we see what this team can really do.

 

[Oprostaj]

You're forgetting that you can only have 5 people on the court... Martin being there will make us much weaker on D, and will take a playmaker out of the lineup... there are two sides to every coin. We win this if we're more poised, don't let Frye beat us (WTF you know he only takes 3s) and hit our FTs. Simple. Oh and Nash. I guess we got the memo that he can play a bit too late.

 

[Entity]

You're forgetting that you can only have 5 people on the court... Martin being there will make us much weaker on D, and will take a playmaker out of the lineup... there are two sides to every coin. We win this if we're more poised, don't let Frye beat us (WTF you know he only takes 3s) and hit our FTs. Simple. Oh and Nash. I guess we got the memo that he can play a bit too late.

No I am not forgeting. Kevin Martin was the only reason some fans even came to the game or turned on the TV the last 3 years. They didn't do it because he wasn't any good. Beno is not a defensive juggernaut. He is hiting his shots right now and that is why most or noticing him. If Beno goes 2-13 for 3 or 4 games in a row then we are RIGHT back to wanting to trade him and wondering why we gave him that big contract.

 

[The Hammer]

You're forgetting that you can only have 5 people on the court... Martin being there will make us much weaker on D, and will take a playmaker out of the lineup... there are two sides to every coin. We win this if we're more poised, don't let Frye beat us (WTF you know he only takes 3s) and hit our FTs. Simple. Oh and Nash. I guess we got the memo that he can play a bit too late.

No, we got the memo in plenty of time. He's just good. If you heard the postgame interview with him explained exactly how he broke us down. See basketball is hard and complex. It's easy to say "don't let Frye beat us" but he made the shots because Nash had broken our defense down. He's one of the best there ever was at that. One of the smartest players ever.

I do agree we win this if we were more poised, and hit some more free throws. And to be able to say that for a game on the road against the Suns for a team that won 17 games last year is unbelievable.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

Most of our losses are coming because our offense is getting soooooo stagnat at times. not to mention our free throw shooting is costing us points. Kevin would spread the floor for us even more and take pressure off Tyreke and maybe take the double off of him.

If Tyreke doesn't score 20 for us every night we lose. We need another consistant scorer on the court. We have several guys that are capable but our only consistant scorers are Tyreke and Kevin.

I'm not anti-Kevin and I do understand there is more to O and D then looking at points scored for and against, but it seems like our O is doing fine. We are one of the few teams averaging over 104 PPG and scored 107 tonight. Meanwhile we are surrendering over 104 PPG and gave up 115 tonight. While I think K-Mart can be a successful part of a Kings' team. We need D more than O, our offensive efficiency even with advanced stats is better than our defensive efficiency, so why exactly do we need Kevin back?

 

[HighFlyingMonkey]

I'm not anti-Kevin and I do understand there is more to O and D then looking at points scored for and against, but it seems like our O is doing fine. We are one of the few teams averaging over 104 PPG and scored 107 tonight. Meanwhile we are surrendering over 104 PPG and gave up 115 tonight. While I think K-Mart can be a successful part of a Kings' team. We need D more than O, our offensive efficiency even with advanced stats is better than our defensive efficiency, so why exactly do we need Kevin back?

Our defense does need to get better, but take a look at who Martin would be replacing in the lineup. Say what you want about Martin's defense, but its better than Beno or Sergio's.

 

[DeMoN]

Our defense does need to get better, but take a look at who Martin would be replacing in the lineup. Say what you want about Martin's defense, but its better than Beno or Sergio's.

I agree, now that Kevin doesn't have to worry about putting 50 up every night we can focus a little on D because we know he can be an average or better defender with the effort.

 

[PoundForPound]

yeah, a kevin who changes his role would help. the bigger problem was defense tonight. how many wide open threes did they get in the fourth? i mean how does one man get so wide open, where there is noone within ten feet of him??

well i hope everyone saw how soft and weak spencer hawes is. cause if you didnt believe me, you have no excuses tonight. softer than tissue, i sware. and what is he doing shooting threes. he has one solid game every once in a while and a lot of u guys are fine with that. stop giving him so much slack. he flat out sucks. he hurts us when he's on the floor.

 

[VF21]

yeah, a kevin who changes his role would help. the bigger problem was defense tonight. how many wide open threes did they get in the fourth? i mean how does one man get so wide open, where there is noone within ten feet of him??

well i hope everyone saw how soft and weak spencer hawes is. cause if you didnt believe me, you have no excuses tonight. softer than tissue, i sware. and what is he doing shooting threes. he has one solid game every once in a while and a lot of u guys are fine with that. stop giving him so much slack. he flat out sucks. he hurts us when he's on the floor.

You might want to consider putting that in a different thread. This one is about Kevin.

 

[Uncia03]

I rooted for Kevin when we drafted him, and I have been extremely happy with how he's turned out. He's been the player I've most enjoyed watching over the last few years, and it's been great to hear other teams talk about him as an impact player. Obviously he'd be a star player if he had better handles and was more effective on the defensive end, but just because he's not a star player doesn't make him a bad player.

I also agree that if he is able to buy in to playing an reduced offensive role for this team( which I think he can), he'd have more energy to commit to the defensive end and that could really help this team.

With all that said, I'd be willing to trade Kevin, as he is our best asset to get the pieces needed to put a championship team together.

With Tyreke at the PG spot, the ideal 2-Guard to pair up with him would have the following qualities:
1.) A full-sized SG. (This would force opposing teams to put their PG on Tyreke)
2.)A SG who can shoot the ball and therefore spread the floor. (Also would be able to hurt teams who tried to put their PG on our SG.)
3.)A SG who plays defense.
4.)A SG who can handle the ball.

In trying to find a SG who fits all those qualities, I looked at the teams around the league, and it turns out that one of the best fits out there who isn't a star, is our own Francisco Garcia. He has all four of the above qualities, and even though he might not be as 'star' of a player as Kevin, I think he really fits far better beside Tyreke.

So if Garcia really does fit in with Tyreke as well as I think he will, then it makes sense to trade Kevin, who is our best asset, for something which will also best compliment the team.

At this point in time, I wish that Kevin wasn't injured, as I'd love to see him playing beside Tyreke. I think he would help us win some of these games, but I also am very curious as to how he will pair up with Tyreke.
Finally, if it's not obvious, I've very curious as to how Garcia will fit in with this team, especially if he's paired up with Tyreke as the SG.

 

[BMiller52]

I rooted for Kevin when we drafted him, and I have been extremely happy with how he's turned out. He's been the player I've most enjoyed watching over the last few years, and it's been great to hear other teams talk about him as an impact player. Obviously he'd be a star player if he had better handles and was more effective on the defensive end, but just because he's not a star player doesn't make him a bad player.

I also agree that if he is able to buy in to playing an reduced offensive role for this team( which I think he can), he'd have more energy to commit to the defensive end and that could really help this team.

With all that said, I'd be willing to trade Kevin, as he is our best asset to get the pieces needed to put a championship team together.

With Tyreke at the PG spot, the ideal 2-Guard to pair up with him would have the following qualities:
1.) A full-sized SG. (This would force opposing teams to put their PG on Tyreke)
2.)A SG who can shoot the ball and therefore spread the floor. (Also would be able to hurt teams who tried to put their PG on our SG.)
3.)A SG who plays defense.
4.)A SG who can handle the ball.

In trying to find a SG who fits all those qualities, I looked at the teams around the league, and it turns out that one of the best fits out there who isn't a star, is our own Francisco Garcia. He has all four of the above qualities, and even though he might not be as 'star' of a player as Kevin, I think he really fits far better beside Tyreke.

So if Garcia really does fit in with Tyreke as well as I think he will, then it makes sense to trade Kevin, who is our best asset, for something which will also best compliment the team.

At this point in time, I wish that Kevin wasn't injured, as I'd love to see him playing beside Tyreke. I think he would help us win some of these games, but I also am very curious as to how he will pair up with Tyreke.
Finally, if it's not obvious, I've very curious as to how Garcia will fit in with this team, especially if he's paired up with Tyreke as the SG.

Yeah but that doesn't help us this year. I can't picture Cisco coming back this year and playing well after breaking his shooting wrist as badly as he did.

 

[Uncia03]

Yeah but that doesn't help us this year. I can't picture Cisco coming back this year and playing well after breaking his shooting wrist as badly as he did.

*nod*

I can't argue with that. Garcia might not ever make an impact on the team this year. But we we've been winning with-out him so far, so there is nothing to prevent us from having success and letting him ease back into things slowly when he does get back. (Udoka can fill in well enough while he's out)
Who knows, if we actually make a playoff push, and squeak into the 8th seed, he might have had enough time get his rhythm and turn out to be an impact player for us in the post-season. He just seems to be the type of player who would excel in the playoffs.

And worst case scenario....we end up not making the playoffs, but end up with better draft position to pick up an impact player.

 

[Bricklayer]

No I am not forgeting. Kevin Martin was the only reason some fans even came to the game or turned on the TV the last 3 years. They didn't do it because he wasn't any good. Beno is not a defensive juggernaut. He is hiting his shots right now and that is why most or noticing him. If Beno goes 2-13 for 3 or 4 games in a row then we are RIGHT back to wanting to trade him and wondering why we gave him that big contract.

WE DO NOT NEED OFFENSE.

Look, I will keep posting that statment around in every single thread where we, the softest offensive-fascinated fanbase in the NBA complain again about how gee, we ONLY scored 107 again while ignoring the real problem becuase its not as simple, easy, and pretty to watch: defense. That's the problem. Was last year when those wonderful Kevin Martin led crews were the worst in the league. Is again this year when all our kids' hustle and scrap has moved us up maybe 6-8 spots, but still in the bottom 3rd of the league. We just play bad defense. Now we are at least trying, but we still play bad defense. We are young, we lack defensive stoppers, shotblocking, and a defensive captain.

All this pining about wanting more offense, oh we need a shooter, oh we need a scorer, oh oh...it makes me wonder if people are watching the rest of the league. Cleveland sure is a damn nice team huh? And that LeBron fella is pretty good. Well we outscore them, by a LOT. 5ppg. Boston, woohoo! Maybe 3 HOFs... a title....we outscore them by 5ppg too. Orlando 4ppg. San Antonio 5ppg. We outscore Dallas. We outscore the Lakers. We just played the only top team that outscores us by any significant amount. ITS NOT ABOUT OFFENSE. Our offense is fine.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

am i the only one hoping kevin and cisco take their time to get well? i want as much time for our young guys to develop as possible.

we need our bigs to throw it down and stop doing sissy attempts at point blank.

 

[Entity]

WE DO NOT NEED OFFENSE.

Look, I will keep posting that statment around in every single thread where we, the softest offensive-fascinated fanbase in the NBA complain again about how gee, we ONLY scored 107 again while ignoring the real problem becuase its not as simple, easy, and pretty to watch: defense. That's the problem. Was last year when those wonderful Kevin Martin led crews were the worst in the league. Is again this year when all our kids' hustle and scrap has moved us up maybe 6-8 spots, but still in the bottom 3rd of the league. We just play bad defense. Now we are at least trying, but we still play bad defense. We are young, we lack defensive stoppers, shotblocking, and a defensive captain.

All this pining about wanting more offense, oh we need a shooter, oh we need a scorer, oh oh...it makes me wonder if people are watching the rest of the league. Cleveland sure is a damn nice team huh? And that LeBron fella is pretty good. Well we outscore them, by a LOT. 5ppg. Boston, woohoo! Maybe 3 HOFs... a title....we outscore them by 5ppg too. Orlando 4ppg. San Antonio 5ppg. We outscore Dallas. We outscore the Lakers. We just played the only top team that outscores us by any significant amount. ITS NOT ABOUT OFFENSE. Our offense is fine.

I got that. But our offense is resting in the hands of a rookie right now. and outside of him I don't trust anybody to take on the scoring load. We can't rely on our 3rd pg to give us 24 pts or our 3rd SF to start at SG and give us 25pts. Or our inconsistant frontline to get us a combined 30-40 pts. Kevin is consistant and reliable. I mean is his defense really bad enough that Beno is a better defender than Martin?

If you had to choose a 2nd scoring option would it be Beno or Martin?
If the game were on the line and Reke was injured or fouled out who would you turn to, to make some shots in the last 3 or 4 min?

I'd pick Kevin. I am not saying we aren't doing good without him. I am saying we could do even better with him.

I don't want him coming back and taking 20-25 shots a game either. Which is what this whole thread is about. I just want him to take 12-16 shots and blend in as the 2nd option behind Tyreke. Kevin requires alot of attention coming across the middle and it will open things up even more. NOBODY is going to leave Kevin wide open behind the arc.

 

[Oprostaj]

Dude seriously. What are you not understanding. Kevin is not going to fix our problems. I'm not saying Beno is the savior, but Kevin would not make us better. HE IS A SCORER. That's it. I'm sure he's a wonderful person, and he was the only reason some people watched games in the past, but that does nothing for us now. Let it go and open your eyes. We do not need him. I understand our offense is in the hands of a rookie, but our offense is fine. It's almost like you take a look at the facts and choose to ignore them. I agree that Kevin would take pressure off of Tyreke, but you can't have it all. Beno is not awesome but he helps Tyreke, and that is obvious. Again, KMart has not done anything except score, and that is something we do not need. He is not the answer. Why would we do better with him? Because we would average 110ppg and give up 130? Your argument makes no sense.

Also, I give great kudos to this team for hanging with the Suns, don't get me wrong. But they are coming off a brutal road trip and numerous games in a short amount of time. Still, great game by the kids.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

Dude seriously. What are you not understanding. Kevin is not going to fix our problems. I'm not saying Beno is the savior, but Kevin would not make us better. HE IS A SCORER. That's it. I'm sure he's a wonderful person, and he was the only reason some people watched games in the past, but that does nothing for us now. Let it go and open your eyes. We do not need him. I understand our offense is in the hands of a rookie, but our offense is fine. It's almost like you take a look at the facts and choose to ignore them. I agree that Kevin would take pressure off of Tyreke, but you can't have it all. Beno is not awesome but he helps Tyreke, and that is obvious. Again, KMart has not done anything except score, and that is something we do not need. He is not the answer. Why would we do better with him? Because we would average 110ppg and give up 130? Your argument makes no sense.

Also, I give great kudos to this team for hanging with the Suns, don't get me wrong. But they are coming off a brutal road trip and numerous games in a short amount of time. Still, great game by the kids.

Indeed, and PW has an incredible dilema on his hands once Kevin comes back...if the offense/defense/Tyreke is effected by Martin in a negative way when he inserts him back in the starting lineup, whats he going to do, BENCH his 30 pt scorer?? I dont see that happening...and I do see there being both a positive impact and a negative one once Kevin gets put back in our lineup. Does PW play smallball and make our bench better with Donte and Noc back there? This has the potential to be either a VERY good season once he comes back, or it could send us into a downward spiral...what to do...

edit: ...paging Geoff Petrie...paging Geoff Petrie...

 

[Entity]

Dude seriously. What are you not understanding. Kevin is not going to fix our problems. I'm not saying Beno is the savior, but Kevin would not make us better. HE IS A SCORER. That's it. I'm sure he's a wonderful person, and he was the only reason some people watched games in the past, but that does nothing for us now. Let it go and open your eyes. We do not need him. I understand our offense is in the hands of a rookie, but our offense is fine. It's almost like you take a look at the facts and choose to ignore them. I agree that Kevin would take pressure off of Tyreke, but you can't have it all. Beno is not awesome but he helps Tyreke, and that is obvious. Again, KMart has not done anything except score, and that is something we do not need. He is not the answer. Why would we do better with him? Because we would average 110ppg and give up 130? Your argument makes no sense.

Also, I give great kudos to this team for hanging with the Suns, don't get me wrong. But they are coming off a brutal road trip and numerous games in a short amount of time. Still, great game by the kids.

I guess you will all just wait and see. because no matter how you feel Kevin Martin will be starting at SG. So the point is moot. lol no matter if I am right or you or Brick. Donte Greene is our starting SG right now Beno is great off the bench Kevin will take Donte's place.

Ask yourself this. Whys is Coach Paul starting Donte bringing Beno off the bench? I will tell you. He is letting Tyreke get used to being the sole ball handler on court to start the game and getting Beno used to being our #1 guy off the bench.

When Kevin comes back it will be

Evans
Martin
Noc
Thompson
Hawes

Evans and Martin will play together for the first 6 min then 1 will come out and Beno in. depending on the flow of the game will determine the rest of the half as far as that combo goes. Same will be done in the second half.

Beno will get about 25 min Martin and Tyreke about 35 apiece. Those numbers arent't exact could sway up or down depending on matchups and nightly outputs. In fact you could see all 3 in the game at the same time depending on matchups (has to a small SF).

But yes I understand what you and Brick are saying. I am leting you know what will happen. You can bank on it.

 

[VF21]

Again, I caution everyone against reaching conclusions before the ship has left the dock. None of us know what the dynamics of the team are going to be when Martin comes back to the active roster. This is the Kings we're talking about, remember. Everyone is acting as though we'll have nothing but healthy players at our disposal which, while nice to dream about, doesn't actually happen all the time.

Coach Paul Westphal is making a nice chunk of change to figure out how to make things work, to have the pieces of the puzzle in the right places to build the bigger picture. I'm personally going to wait and see what happens. All these conclusions could easily be moot by the time Martin laces up his sneakers again.

 

[Kingster]

I'm going to fall in the betwixt and between camp; also known as wishy washy, or just-can't-make-up-my-mind camp.

I would like to see Martin with little point guards on him and see what happens. I think Martin would like that very much too. I think opposing coaches would rather have 6'1" guards guarding Martin rather than Tyreke, but I think they'll be dissapointed with that experience. I'd also like to see Martin go back to the old "cut and move" Martin (redunant?, I dunno). Just can't stand the wannabee Tyreke Martin - don't you hate when people try to be something they're not? Just doesn't cut it. Martin has to be Martin - cutting without the ball, hitting open 3s, and relegating himself to a two-dribble rule. (Sorry, Martin, but your dream to be Kobe II, or even Tyreke, has got to go). If he does that, the offense will be very fun to watch.

Defensively? That's the huge question mark. I'd like to wishfully think that Martin under the tutelage of Westphal is going to become at least a semi-stopper, but I can't drink that Kool-Aid right now. Still, when everybody else on the team is buying into defense and taking charges and hitting the floor, Martin is going to stick out like a sore thumb if he doesn't do it too. And Martin doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who wants to stick out in that particular way. All in all, the only thing I can definitively say is that it's going to be very interesting to watch how he meshes with the team, and what his net impact is going to be. No doubt, there will be a zillion posts on this when he comes back.

 

[Entity]

Again, I caution everyone against reaching conclusions before the ship has left the dock. None of us know what the dynamics of the team are going to be when Martin comes back to the active roster. This is the Kings we're talking about, remember. Everyone is acting as though we'll have nothing but healthy players at our disposal which, while nice to dream about, doesn't actually happen all the time.

Coach Paul Westphal is making a nice chunk of change to figure out how to make things work, to have the pieces of the puzzle in the right places to build the bigger picture. I'm personally going to wait and see what happens. All these conclusions could easily be moot by the time Martin laces up his sneakers again.

I disagree. If everyone is healthy I know eactaly what will happen. I see things. things of the future. I can't tell you anymore than that so don't ask. Lets just say get your Champange ready for the 2013-2014 season.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

I disagree. If everyone is healthy I know eactaly what will happen. I see things. things of the future. I can't tell you anymore than that so don't ask. Lets just say get your Champange ready for the 2013-2014 season.

BUT...will the team be in Sacramento then, oh Swami??

 

[VF21]

I disagree. If everyone is healthy I know eactaly what will happen. I see things. things of the future. I can't tell you anymore than that so don't ask. Lets just say get your Champange ready for the 2013-2014 season.

Sorry. I quit reading after that...

 

[Entity]

Sorry. I quit reading after that...

you should read more. I gets better (deeper)

 

[iowamcnabb]

Martin, in my opinion, will be fine as a complimentary piece. I think he feels more comfortable in that role anyway. As it stands we can count on Tyreke and Beno to give us a scoring spark. We have had several lulls in the third period and have had to rely on beno to stop and pop. Martin gives us one more reliable offensive option. As far as trading him, what could we honestly get for him? He is more valuable to us than any other team. Better to realize what he brings to the table and maximize his abilities.

 

[Sptsjunkie]

I'm going to fall in the betwixt and between camp; also known as wishy washy, or just-can't-make-up-my-mind camp.

I would like to see Martin with little point guards on him and see what happens. I think Martin would like that very much too. I think opposing coaches would rather have 6'1" guards guarding Martin rather than Tyreke, but I think they'll be dissapointed with that experience. I'd also like to see Martin go back to the old "cut and move" Martin (redunant?, I dunno). Just can't stand the wannabee Tyreke Martin - don't you hate when people try to be something they're not? Just doesn't cut it. Martin has to be Martin - cutting without the ball, hitting open 3s, and relegating himself to a two-dribble rule. (Sorry, Martin, but your dream to be Kobe II, or even Tyreke, has got to go). If he does that, the offense will be very fun to watch.

Defensively? That's the huge question mark. I'd like to wishfully think that Martin under the tutelage of Westphal is going to become at least a semi-stopper, but I can't drink that Kool-Aid right now. Still, when everybody else on the team is buying into defense and taking charges and hitting the floor, Martin is going to stick out like a sore thumb if he doesn't do it too. And Martin doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who wants to stick out in that particular way. All in all, the only thing I can definitively say is that it's going to be very interesting to watch how he meshes with the team, and what his net impact is going to be. No doubt, there will be a zillion posts on this when he comes back.

Agree wholeheartedly. Especially the part about Martin needing to be Martin and not trying to be our primary ball handler. He is an incredibly efficient scorer, but Reke needs to run the offense and Martin needs to score off the ball. If he can keep his ego in check, he could be a great pairing with Reke offensively.

 

[rainmaker]

The thing about Kevin which I find puzzling, is that it seems the majority of Kings fans on this forum think that when he comes back it won't work out, and they don't even want to give it a chance.

Maybe I'm part of a selct few here, but I was very impressed with what kevin did his first 5 games, defense included. Assists were up, rebounds were up, steals were up. Of course he has room to improve on defense, but he won't, nor will anyone else, turn into a great defender over the course of 5 games. I would even make the arguement that when comparing last years team to this years, kevin made the most improvement on defense out of anyone on our roster last year. And yes, I'm judging that on 5 games because thats all I have to go on.

Objectively, I would say Kevins defense was average compared to the other sg's in the league. If he had been playing this entire time, I think he would have improved even more, because the effort was there.

Now, in regards to the arguement that when Kevin comes back our defense goes into the toilet. Personally, I think our bigs are a much larger part of the problem. I'm not looking for Kevin to be a lockdown defender-aint gonna happen. But when we have bigs that can protect the paint, and actually defend a pick & roll, then Kevins defensive problems don't stick out that much. IMO, defensive bigs are more important than defensive wings, and that is a problem we really need to correct.

These aren't excuses for Kevin. He could come back and this team will tank. I don't know. Nobody does. But I'll wait and see, before declaring that Kevin CAN'T fit in with this team. Also, Westphal has been brilliant coaching these guys with players popping in and out of the lineup all season. Doesn't anyone else have confidence that Westphal can make this work? I'm surprised that such a large percentage of fans here are already ready to write off Kevin.

I'm sure a few of you will disagree with my take. I don't think its a popular one right now.

 

[Luv4Kings]

I realize that conventional wisdom today is that Kevin has no defensive skills at all.

However, I remember when he played 2-3 years ago, his defense was decent, if not great. He was studying Doug Christie. I also remember when we played Seattle that Ray Allen hated to see Kevin coming. Somehow, Kevin managed to stop Allen. So if he can't play any defense at all, then maybe Allen isn't that great a shooter?!?

Of course, last season Kevin played with a gimpy ankle and calf so it's a little hard to be pivoting and managing to stay in front of a quick offensive player.

No, I'm not saying Kevin is the next Kobe Stopper, but he can play decent defense when healthy. At least, he used to and I'm sure he can again.

Oh, and someone said there's only 5 players on the floor at a time? Really? What do you know... you learn something new everyday.