WCS points to focus, effort, not scheme

LPKingsFan · Feb 8, 2016

I have no idea whether this should go into the "opponents three point shooting bonanza" thread or the "Karl isn't 100% at fault thread," so I figured it could be its own. I haven't seen it anywhere else yet. Mods, I defer to you.

Anyways, some of us have been curious whether the problem is scheme or effort, especially regarding perimeter defense. This is just one data point, and I don't know whether he's just trying to play nice, but WCS suggests he believes it is the latter:

Other quotes:

More here: http://cowbellkingdom.com/cauley-st...ith-five-people-especially-with-two-or-three/

The_Jamal · Feb 8, 2016

Those are some fantastic quotes from one of the few guys on the team who's effort we never have to question.

Also directly contradicts Boogie a few games back, who said they can't keep blaming the players for lack of effort and hustle. Interesting wrinkle in this saga.

Padrino · Feb 8, 2016

The_Jamal said:

to be fair, WCS is also one of the few kings capable of executing effectively and with consistency in george karl's hairbrained defensive scheme. there just aren't a lot of bigs across the league who can legitimately swing down and back up again so fluidly the way willie already can as a rookie. most of the rest of this roster, however, is left on an island by karl's scheme. so often they end up out of position or in unfavorable match-ups that render any perceived effort on their part useless. this team is already home to a handful of very weak defenders, and the scheme magnifies their flaws on that side of the ball, rather than masking or compensating for them...

i certainly appreciate willie's candor and his work ethic, of course. he's trying really hard to make his presence and personality felt, and that's one of the reasons i like him. he won't disappear for weeks at a time like ben mclemore has been prone to do in his young career thus far. willie is intent on having an impact, and that attitude alone will carry him a long ways in this league. his physical gifts will do the rest. that said, i'm not about to nod in agreement and proclaim that "focus and effort will fix this defense!!" just because the rook wants to say all the right things...

funkykingston · Feb 8, 2016

Good for Cauley-Stein in pointing out what we all see. Whether the players like George Karl's offensive and defensive schemes or not (and I personally like neither) that doesn't excuse a lack of effort.

Karl (if he keeps his job) needs to change and adapt but nothing he tries to implement will work with the lack of pride in defense I've been watching the last few games.

The Kings have the talent to be a playoff team. They often give effort like a bottom three lottery team.

Bricklayer · Feb 8, 2016

WCS is a rookie, with all that implies.

Two things it does though:

1) he's got half a season in the NBA so far, he's never played in another scheme at this level, has little to compare it with.
2) just as importantly, the scheme or focus question is academic. A coach is responsible for both. In fact I would say more coaches get fired for losing their team's attention/being unable to inspire them than get fired because of X's and O's. The single biggest part of being an NBA coach is getting guys to play hard and together every night.

Jerichoholic · Feb 8, 2016

Bricklayer said:

His is a rookie and maybe he shouldn't say those things, it does quite point fingers, but it kind of does. You have to admit though, it is a little concerning. You have a young guy who obviously plays with a lot of energy and effort, things we need and he is commenting that he basically has teammates that aren't, veteran teammates. He is not the one who should set the example, he is not the one who should be saying other veteran players aren't focused. It's something we've talked about, do our players care enough, sure they want to win, who doesn't? However is winning only good enough if it's on their terms, not willing to sacrifice for the good of the entire team.

funkykingston · Feb 8, 2016

Yes, a coach's success on the NBA level generally is more about his ability to navigate the personalities of the locker room and find ways to motivate them than his skill with the X's and O's. George Karl (and a few others - Skiles, Carlesimo, Thibodeau, etc) has largely flipped that script as a guy who has been much more about installing his scheme than developing relationships. These types of coaches generally get short term results and then end up wearing out their welcome.

The issue this season is that George Karl hasn't worked wonders with a scheme that led to wins. So you got the bad (not building trust with his players) and not the good (turning around a team and winning). It's been really unfortunate and frustrating to watch unfold. Especially as the Kings are poised to be a national joke yet again, by firing yet another coach.

So I do blame George Karl.

That said - Players that want to win play hard every night. Period.

The players may not like Karl or his offensive & defensive principles but if they actually came to play with great effort every night they'd be in the 8th spot right now. I don't think the team would go much beyond that and I think a parting with Karl is inevitable because he's not the right fit, but he's not the guy failing to stop the ball or close out on shooters in transition. He's not the guy ducking under picks instead of trying to jump them or force their man. He's not the one that isn't winning loose ball situations and hustle plays. And he's not the one that let the Celtics out rebound the Kings and score 46 points in the first quarter.

I can buy the - "these are grown men, you can't treat them like college kids" rationale for firing a guy like David Blatt.

But then I can't buy the rationale that you need a coach to get you to play hard and try to win games.

Doesn't work both ways. These are grown men who are wasting yet another season by not coming to play every night. Period.

Padrino · Feb 8, 2016

funkykingston said:

i'm just gonna take a completely opposing view than most on this forum, but i honestly think this "play hard" stuff is seriously overblown when we discuss the sacramento kings. like, seriously overblown. the kings play extremely hard--on one side of the ball, and that is the problem. marco belinelli has been an abject disappointment this season, but has anybody watched him sprinting around the court in search of space off those silly curls the kings like to run that rarely work? that dude works hard. but it doesn't often result in points, and it doesn't often translate to effort expended on the other side of the ball. that latter point is of great importance, and it is unmistakably an issue of culture and coach...

i don't understand why fans like to compartmentalize issues that are deeply interconnected. it's rather simple, in my view: this franchise hired a head coach with a track record of valuing offense over defense, and whose preferred play style requires its roster to move as fast as humanly possible as often as humanly possible. now, you don't run up and down the court at the pace these kings do unless you're "playing hard" every night. this coach absolutely has his team "playing hard" on the side of the ball he most values, but he's also tried to shoehorn them into defensive schemes recycled from his 90's playbooks in an effort to exert the least amount of energy coaching to the other side of the ball, where this team requires the most help. beyond all of that, and despite the rhetoric surrounding team sports, "playing hard" isn't actually what nets results so much as "playing right," and "playing right" is a concept that shifts on a team-by-team basis...

the warriors "play right" in that they've maximized the talents of their roster and they've crafted a style of play on both sides of the ball that effectively fits the talents of their roster. an owner/gm/coach/franchise that looks at the warriors' formula and says "that's the way to win a championship" has learned all the wrong lessons from the warriors' success. everyone would love to have a roster shaped like the warriors so that they can play like the warriors, but so few teams have the kind of flexibility to do so. i've repeated this ad nauseam since mike malone was fired, but you should always coach the roster you have, and not the roster you wish you had. for example, one could take the ungenerous view that boogie's utter exhaustion in this latter part of the season is a result of poor conditioning, or one could more reasonably suggest that a man who is 6'11", 265 lbs probably shouldn't be exerting so much of his energy from within such a high octane offense, and that a more optimal pace would be one that doesn't completely wear down, ya know, the team's best player...

however, george karl seems to have little concern for any of that. he's only interested in coaching this team in his way, regardless of the shape of the roster being mismatched to the shape of his preferred offensive and defensive systems. personally, i'd say all the running up and down the court at the league's fastest pace for a coach that seems largely disinterested in the defensive side of the ball is where this perceived "lack of effort" actually comes from. the kings can't locate focus or effort on defense because their coach lacks some combination of interest or drive or desire or will to prioritize defense and to make the necessary adjustments to his game plan so that his roster is equipped to succeed on that side of the ball...

in short, george karl is an ideologue. he believes that basketball should be played at the fastest pace possible, and he's always treated defense as a secondary concern. a few of his teams have shown well in defensive efficiency metrics, but few fans of any team that he has ever coached would suggest that defense was ever a priority of karl's. it's not. it's never been. for a team like the kings with many weak links in their defense, it's just death to have a coach who 1) doesn't emphasize defensive effort and efficiency with any regularity, and 2) makes use of a system that constantly rotates players out of position and into unfavorable mismatches. again, it's an issue of culture and coaching. until defense becomes a priority for this entire franchise, this lack of focus and effort will persist. both focus and effort are most often achieved as the result of great leadership, and great leadership most often starts with the coach. these guys live and die based on their ability to motivate five guys to play together as a team, and on both sides of the ball. and in my opinion, karl just doesn't have it anymore...

The_Jamal · Feb 8, 2016

funkykingston said:

Yes, a coach's success on the NBA level generally is more about his ability to navigate the personalities of the locker room and find ways to motivate them than his skill with the X's and O's. George Karl (and a few others - Skiles, Carlesimo, Thibodeau, etc) has largely flipped that script as a guy who has been much more about installing his scheme than developing relationships. These types of coaches generally get short term results and then end up wearing out their welcome.

The issue this season is that George Karl hasn't worked wonders with a scheme that led to wins. So you got the bad (not building trust with his players) and not the good (turning around a team and winning). It's been really unfortunate and frustrating to watch unfold. Especially as the Kings are poised to be a national joke yet again, by firing yet another coach.

So I do blame George Karl.

That said - Players that want to win play hard every night. Period.

The players may not like Karl or his offensive & defensive principles but if they actually came to play with great effort every night they'd be in the 8th spot right now. I don't think the team would go much beyond that and I think a parting with Karl is inevitable because he's not the right fit, but he's not the guy failing to stop the ball or close out on shooters in transition. He's not the guy ducking under picks instead of trying to jump them or force their man. He's not the one that isn't winning loose ball situations and hustle plays. And he's not the one that let the Celtics out rebound the Kings and score 46 points in the first quarter.

I can buy the - "these are grown men, you can't treat them like college kids" rationale for firing a guy like David Blatt.

But then I can't buy the rationale that you need a coach to get you to play hard and try to win games.

Doesn't work both ways. These are grown men who are wasting yet another season by not coming to play every night. Period.

I think the best example was when Seth got into the game last night. Instantly came in and stood out on defense for how he was getting up into Bradley's grill. Think Bradley made one tough shot over him, but it was a night and day difference from what we saw from everyone else and the level of intensity he was playing at.

Now Brick pointed out that he has to play that way so he can work into the rotation, but why should that be an excuse for everyone else? Why can't everyone else bring it on the defensive end?

kingsboi · Feb 8, 2016

It is scheme...I'm not sure how that is coming about but part of changing the scheme is committing, part of committing is willing to sacrifice and put in the effort and hustle in order to execute it the right way. I love Trill more and more, it's a damn shame Karl is still yanking him in and out at his own pleasure and many times does not play for long durations.

hrdboild · Feb 8, 2016

The_Jamal said:

I think the best example was when Seth got into the game last night. Instantly came in and stood out on defense for how he was getting up into Bradley's grill. Think Bradley made one tough shot over him, but it was a night and day difference from what we saw from everyone else and the level of intensity he was playing at.

Now Brick pointed out that he has to play that way so he can work into the rotation, but why should that be an excuse for everyone else? Why can't everyone else bring it on the defensive end?

If you read Padrino's post above yours, I think he came up with a plausible answer for this.

funkykingston · Feb 8, 2016

The argument that Karl is running the team into the ground is a valid one. And it has clearly taken it's toll on Cousins who is (1) getting dinged up at a much higher rate and (2) shooting a lower percentage from the field than in any season but his rookie year. I already think Boogie deserves some slack for his part of the defensive woes.

But Rondo is in fantastic shape, Rudy is in typical Rudy shape, WCS is a gazelle and Ben and Darren are speedsters. I told Pete D'Alessandro in person that he built a roster for a slowdown game and that making them play uptempo didn't make sense. So I'm not arguing that this team should be playing at this pace at all.

But the Warriors play at a nearly identical pace and are still committed fully on the defensive end. Steph Curry isn't on a different planet athletically than Collison or Rondo (in terms of being a shooter/scorer he's in a different universe of course), Klay Thompson is bigger but not more athletic than Ben. And so on down the line. Bogut has to hump it up and down the court and I wouldn't say he's faster or more athletic than Boogie.

So yes, this scheme is a bad fit for this roster. It's why if Karl had his druthers I'm guessing half of it would already be traded for energetic, hustle players that fit better in his system. But it doesn't excuse being complacent about letting the other team score at will. The Kings of the early 2000's played at only a slightly slower pace than this bunch and still were able to give energy on the defensive end. And players from those teams have said that Adelman spent very little practice time devoted to defense.

Bobby Jackson was right, these are basic fundamentals that are lacking. There is a sense of pride on the defensive end that is lacking. Which current Kings player have any of us seen get angry at allowing these ridiculous first quarter outbursts from opponents? If you're too tired from running up and down the floor to play good defense then ask for a sub to catch your breath until you can give that effort. It really is that simple. Everybody can muster up the energy if they are getting a chance to score the basketball. The real effort comes in mustering up that energy on the defensive end.

So I still maintain that while Karl's offensive system and defensive schemes are terrible fits with this roster it doesn't excuse the poor defensive effort that I have watched, especially in these last 7 or 8 games.

funkykingston · Feb 8, 2016

Just as a note, here's a quote from George Karl about trying to get Rondo to play more defense:

And here is Boogie's statement on what the Kings need to do:

The first article is from two days ago, the second from today.

Padrino · Feb 8, 2016

funkykingston said:

sure, it doesn't excuse the poor defensive effort, but it goes a helluva long way towards explaining it. if the locker room is turning on karl before he's even finished coaching his first full season with the team, then that's a serious problem. i'd happily transfer a lot more responsibility to the players if george karl wasn't dragging decades of baggage behind him that all point to his clashes with star talent and his general lack of emphasis on defensive basketball. hiring a guy with that kind of history to coach a player with demarcus' kind of history was a fools' errand from the start. some of us were saying it, but it was largely drowned out by the impact that a decade's worth of misery will have on a fanbase's desperation...

now, i know that a lot of those same fans like to b*tch and moan about how "this player isn't giving maximum effort" and "that player is getting paid millions to play a game," but i'm much less interested in these kinds of rhetorical pursuits. focus and effort wane from time to time in the nba. it's just the sh*t that comes with the grind of a long and exhausting 82-game season. anybody who watches non-kings-related nba basketball on the regular knows that most every player and most every team suffers from lapses in focus and effort as a season wears on. it's only a special few, like the warriors and spurs of the 2015-2016 season, that are able to maintain that focus and effort for the lion's share of those 82 games. and hell, even those two gold-standards-of-excellence have suffered embarrassing losses this season...

point is, i'm much more interested in figuring out how to mine positive results from a situation-gone-to-sh*t. i don't think platitudes about personal pride and maximum effort are gonna get it done. there's no pat riley in that locker room, after all. so, sure, if we set aside the obvious alignment problems between this coach, his systems, and this roster, the players still aren't giving max effort. got it. but how do we solve the problem? well, hiring a coach who 1) values defense beyond customary post-game lip service, and 2) can effectively motivate a roster in need of that extra push would, in my opinion, go a long towards towards solving the problem. because that's what i'm about: solving the problem. what will you do otherwise? trade everybody away? with few truly valuable assets outside of demarcus cousins, with a new arena opening next season, and without complete control of your near-future first round picks?

some like to melodramatically claim that they'd rather watch a d-league team giving maximum effort than this current roster. i'd suggest they first talk to sixers fans about how fun that's been for them. it's been ten years of losing in sacramento, and that losing has predictably coincided with an organizational-wide aversion to defense, and all i want is for this franchise to commit to defense by hiring a coach who gives a sh*t about it, refrain from firing that coach if he doesn't play fast enough for their personal tastes, and put demarcus cousins and the rest of the roster in a position to succeed; give them a chance to make the playoffs. i'm just so sick to death of watching this franchise sabotage itself at every turn, which is exactly what they did when they hired a head coach before a gm not once, but twice...

yes, i'd absolutely like to see more effort from the players, but it's not going to solve a damn thing until the much larger problems facing this team are addressed. let vlade hire a head coach of his choosing (again, preferably one who gives a sh*t about defense), get everybody on the same f***ing page for once, and try your hand at establishing a strong, unified culture. if the wins don't come then, if the team still lapses into pee poor efforts far too consistently, set your mind to blowing it all up. but establish a bit of stability and organizational synergy before committing to another half-decade or more of rebuilding, which will surely also be accompanied by a half-empty golden 1 center as the shine of a new arena eventually wears off and the fans decide to hibernate until better days arrive...

funkykingston · Feb 8, 2016

There are role players who give maximum effort all or nearly all of the time. It's how some guys stick in the league. It's also why "motor" is a positive attribute - not every player is even capable of being highly active for long stretches.

And great players definitely coast at times. I remember Grant Hill talking about this eons ago - that he had to learn to pick spots to catch a breather now and then, usually on the defensive end. If you know your opposing wing is going to fade to the corner as the ball is swung round you can just move a bit to stay in the passing lane with vision of man and ball. It's not all out effort but it's smart basketball.

I don't need to see wire to wire effort from these Kings but I need to see them pick more spots to dig in and get spots. To hustle for loose balls. And to get mad about letting teams score on them at will.

Because poor scheme or not, I'll-fitting coach or not, this team had a shot at the playoffs and didn't seize it because poor coaching was compounded by poor effort far too often.

IfAt1st · Feb 9, 2016

LPKingsFan said:

I'll stop you right there.

It's WCS being nice and being a good player, so he doesn't get mud on him from what's going down.

I don't believe most of what the players, coaches, and management say publicly - you have to read between the lines and guess as to what's actually going on, because what people say is almost certainly NOT what is really going on.

Tetsujin · Feb 9, 2016

Padrino said:

i'm just gonna take a completely opposing view than most on this forum, but i honestly think this "play hard" stuff is seriously overblown when we discuss the sacramento kings. like, seriously overblown. the kings play extremely hard--on one side of the ball, and that is the problem. marco belinelli has been an abject disappointment this season, but has anybody watched him sprinting around the court in search of space off those silly curls the kings like to run that rarely work? that dude works hard. but it doesn't often result in points, and it doesn't often translate to effort expended on the other side of the ball. that latter point is of great importance, and it is unmistakably an issue of culture and coach...

i don't understand why fans like to compartmentalize issues that are deeply interconnected. it's rather simple, in my view: this franchise hired a head coach with a track record of valuing offense over defense, and whose preferred play style requires its roster to move as fast as humanly possible as often as humanly possible. now, you don't run up and down the court at the pace these kings do unless you're "playing hard" every night. this coach absolutely has his team "playing hard" on the side of the ball he most values, but he's also tried to shoehorn them into defensive schemes recycled from his 90's playbooks in an effort to exert the least amount of energy coaching to the other side of the ball, where this team requires the most help. beyond all of that, and despite the rhetoric surrounding team sports, "playing hard" isn't actually what nets results so much as "playing right," and "playing right" is a concept that shifts on a team-by-team basis...

the warriors "play right" in that they've maximized the talents of their roster and they've crafted a style of play on both sides of the ball that effectively fits the talents of their roster. an owner/gm/coach/franchise that looks at the warriors' formula and says "that's the way to win a championship" has learned all the wrong lessons from the warriors' success. everyone would love to have a roster shaped like the warriors so that they can play like the warriors, but so few teams have the kind of flexibility to do so. i've repeated this ad nauseam since mike malone was fired, but you should always coach the roster you have, and not the roster you wish you had. for example, one could take the ungenerous view that boogie's utter exhaustion in this latter part of the season is a result of poor conditioning, or one could more reasonably suggest that a man who is 6'11", 265 lbs probably shouldn't be exerting so much of his energy from within such a high octane offense, and that a more optimal pace would be one that doesn't completely wear down, ya know, the team's best player...

however, george karl seems to have little concern for any of that. he's only interested in coaching this team in his way, regardless of the shape of the roster being mismatched to the shape of his preferred offensive and defensive systems. personally, i'd say all the running up and down the court at the league's fastest pace for a coach that seems largely disinterested in the defensive side of the ball is where this perceived "lack of effort" actually comes from. the kings can't locate focus or effort on defense because their coach lacks some combination of interest or drive or desire or will to prioritize defense and to make the necessary adjustments to his game plan so that his roster is equipped to succeed on that side of the ball...

in short, george karl is an ideologue. he believes that basketball should be played at the fastest pace possible, and he's always treated defense as a secondary concern. a few of his teams have shown well in defensive efficiency metrics, but few fans of any team that he has ever coached would suggest that defense was ever a priority of karl's. it's not. it's never been. for a team like the kings with many weak links in their defense, it's just death to have a coach who 1) doesn't emphasize defensive effort and efficiency with any regularity, and 2) makes use of a system that constantly rotates players out of position and into unfavorable mismatches. again, it's an issue of culture and coaching. until defense becomes a priority for this entire franchise, this lack of focus and effort will persist. both focus and effort are most often achieved as the result of great leadership, and great leadership most often starts with the coach. these guys live and die based on their ability to motivate five guys to play together as a team, and on both sides of the ball. and in my opinion, karl just doesn't have it anymore...

WCS points to focus, effort, not scheme

LPKingsFan

All-Star

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer

Padrino

All-Star

funkykingston

Super Moderator

Bricklayer

Don't Make Me Use The Bat

Jerichoholic

Bench

funkykingston

Super Moderator

Padrino

All-Star

The_Jamal

Hall of Famer

kingsboi

Hall of Famer

hrdboild

Moloch in whom I dream Angels!

funkykingston

Super Moderator

funkykingston

Super Moderator

Padrino

All-Star

funkykingston

Super Moderator

IfAt1st

Starter

Tetsujin

The Game Thread Dude