Was the late 90s/early 2000s squad just a product of blind luck?

[RookieOfTheDay]

I don't know how else to explain the Maloofs/Petrie going from best owner/GM combo in the league to worst.

It seems like everybody and their grandmother knew that Salmons was a bad idea, losing Dalembert would hurt, not having a good PG would come back to bite us, etc. So why didn’t Petrie see this? Or did he see it and just fail to do anything about it? Or was he prevented from doing his job properly by the meddling owners and their questionable finances?

I just don’t know where to lay the blame. Someone has to be held accountable for this disaster.

It’s too bad the new CBA doesn’t have a fan empowering clause that allows bad owners to be voted out.

 

[Andre87]

I seriously dont how petrie is still able to hold to his job after consistently ruining this team since 03.

 

[LWP777]

I think that, for the most part, Petrie has drafted pretty well and that's the one area that the Maloofs love him for. I believe the other issue is that the Maloofs are making him do his job with his hands tied behind his back.

As far as the question the OP poses, it's an interesting one. If you look at the moves that started those great teams in the early 2000's, it could be blind luck.

#1: Trade an aging Mitch Richmond for a young, muti-talented, but troubled PF in Chris Webber. Anybody in the league would have made this move. I think this was just more about the Wizards being incredibly stupid than it was GP being a genius.

#2: Sign Vlade Divac. I will give GP and the Maloofs credit here. Vlade was a nice center at the time but I don't think anybody knew just how good of a player he would be in years to come.

#3: Hire Rick Adelman. This wasn't a surprise here being that GP and Adelman had a long history together.

#4: Draft Jason Williams. Again, pretty good pick by GP. Jason brought excitement to the team and the town. He could run an offense and a fast break.

To me, these initial 4 moves laid the foundation for many great years ahead. It was probably a little blind luck but I think he deserves some credit. I'm not sure what has gone on the past 5-6 years. He seems to have lost his touch. It could be time for a change.

 

[DesertFox]

I have great faith in his ability to find talented plaeyrs, putting talent together, not so much. I think that was a product of coaching, see Timberwolves coach.

 

[LWP777]

I have great faith in his ability to find talented plaeyrs, putting talent together, not so much. I think that was a product of coaching, see Timberwolves coach.

I feel like the whole Rick Adelman thing has been overdone a bit. Sure, he's a good coach but he's not Jesus. What did he do in Golden State? How did he do in Houston? He's not a miracle worker. The #1 reason why the Kings are so bad is because their roster of players is terrible. Everybody thought it was PW's fault but what has the team done since he was fired?

 

[Glenn]

One thing that has happened since Smart took over is Thornton was hurt. Now that's not the only explanation as I don't think Thornton ever hit his stride but it's a problem whenever you lose a 20 pt per game guy. Also not having a 2nd starter in Hayes contributes to our downfall. Excuses? Sure! Reality? Sure! We have spent much of our year missing 2 starters starting from day 1.

The team in what we sadly call the glory years was put together by taking a chance on flakes. By taking a chance on players that other teams would avoid. We drafted a wild child and it worked out fine. It was a big chance. The trade for CWebb turned out to be a steal. This is Petrie's MO - take a chance on the flake. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. The Ron Artest experiment never ran its course. We drafted Cousins and that could have blown up in our faces. We are operating like a team that has no money and has to take desperate shots in the dark to construct a team. We continue to take desperate shots at landing a solid coach. In one era it worked and now it doesn't seem to be working.

The team belatedly was blown up for a rebuild and that's where we are. What was NOT counted on is that we trade away Noc and Hayes for what has ended up being a one year rental on Daly. We will never know the real story how that happened.

Yes, we had luck but I think the chances were weighed and Petrie went for it knowing there was no other way to develop a great team.

 

[Section 101]

I feel like the whole Rick Adelman thing has been overdone a bit. Sure, he's a good coach but he's not Jesus. What did he do in Golden State? How did he do in Houston? He's not a miracle worker. The #1 reason why the Kings are so bad is because their roster of players is terrible. Everybody thought it was PW's fault but what has the team done since he was fired?

Uh some would say his work in Houston was a miracle worker. He went there with Yao and McGrady. Neither really ever got to play for him because of injuries and they still remained on the playoff bubble year after year.

 

[Rookie]

What did he do in Golden State? How did he do in Houston?

Well if you look at Golden State before and after, you might think he did what he can. As for Houston, it's pretty good (over .500) with what he got, especially when your center is a downhill Brad and broken Yao. He may not be a miracle worker but going on a 20ish winning streak is not any coach can said they've done..especially with non superstar. Got them to 2nd round I believe and was it with or without Yao?

So you think Smart with a few short weeks and little practice time can undo what PW/Theus/Musselman did? (Actually I like Theus but that's just me and think PW was the worst of them all IMO)

Cousins playing well now, I see a stable rotation (as stable as it can be with starters getting injured). Jimmer is showing sign of hope. The main problem I see with the team is Tyreke but that is just my opinion. If we replace bad Tyreke with the star Tyreke, we can compete with the best of them.

As for the thread:
No, I don't think GP was just lucky, wasn't he the GM that got Portland to the championship and lost to MJ Bulls? If you done it before and did it again, I consider that is a good track record and not luck. There are bad moves here and there but name me a perfect GM? Especially one in a small market and broke owners? I'm not saying we shouldn't blame him for some of the issue going on now but to get rid of him is ignorant IMO. Especially there won't be a good replacement or even close to him.

 

[Bricklayer]

Should be noted that there was a DISTINCT correlation beteen Petrie's performance, and his owner's pocketbooks. How good exactly was Petrie during the Jim Thomas era? He drafted Peja back in there, but otherwise 1 playoff series in 5 years? Then we hit the goilden era with a coupe of young casino magnates living high on the hog and willing to epnd and spend some more. We have one of the highest payrolls in the league, and Petrie is a genius. Then Webb blows out his knee, and that is the beginning of the end. Its hard to tell who is most disillusioned, the Maloofs or the fanbase, but they close up their pocketbooks and start talking fiscal responsibility. Afterall, what point is there to spend huge bucks on the deepest bench in the league if once you lsoe your star you still can't win? We waddle on now, without the free spedning owners and all of a sudden the luster disappears from Petrie. Then our owners go broke, and all of a sudden Petire is terrible. Is the connection really that hard to make?

 

[Glenn]

Should be noted that there was a DISTINCT correlation beteen Petrie's performance, and his owner's pocketbooks. How good exactly was Petrie during the Jim Thomas era? He drafted Peja back in there, but otherwise 1 playoff series in 5 years? Then we hit the goilden era with a coupe of young casino magnates living high on the hog and willing to epnd and spend some more. We have one of the highest payrolls in the league, and Petrie is a genius. Then Webb blows out his knee, and that is the beginning of the end. Its hard to tell who is most disillusioned, the Maloofs or the fanbase, but they close up their pocketbooks and start talking fiscal responsibility. Afterall, what point is there to spend huge bucks on the deepest bench in the league if once you lsoe your star you still can't win? We waddle on now, without the free spedning owners and all of a sudden the luster disappears from Petrie. Then our owners go broke, and all of a sudden Petire is terrible. Is the connection really that hard to make?

Not for me. You should go back to the pre-2000s to complete the story if you have the energy. People tend to forget that the Kings played from 1985 until 2000. In that era they were pitiful. They had an ownership with no money nor basketball experience and it showed. And their GM was Axelson.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Should be noted that there was a DISTINCT correlation beteen Petrie's performance, and his owner's pocketbooks. How good exactly was Petrie during the Jim Thomas era? He drafted Peja back in there, but otherwise 1 playoff series in 5 years? Then we hit the goilden era with a coupe of young casino magnates living high on the hog and willing to epnd and spend some more. We have one of the highest payrolls in the league, and Petrie is a genius. Then Webb blows out his knee, and that is the beginning of the end. Its hard to tell who is most disillusioned, the Maloofs or the fanbase, but they close up their pocketbooks and start talking fiscal responsibility. Afterall, what point is there to spend huge bucks on the deepest bench in the league if once you lsoe your star you still can't win? We waddle on now, without the free spedning owners and all of a sudden the luster disappears from Petrie. [/b]Then our owners go broke, and all of a sudden Petire is terrible. Is the connection really that hard to make?

Yeah, that's why I asked, "Or was he prevented from doing his job properly by the meddling owners and their questionable finances?"

 

[pdxKingsFan]

I really think its ownership and their cheapness/brokeness. Not that Petrie is perfect, but I think the worst moves were forced on him. He generally drafts well, but otherwise he's hampered by the market being undesirable for free agents and owners that won't spend to acquire an extra pick but would rather trade down to save a few bucks.

I think its pretty clear though that he and Adelman complemented each other well, regardless of what you think of one or both, when they are paired off they seem to be on the same wavelength in player use and evaluation.

 

[SacTownKid]

Should be noted that there was a DISTINCT correlation beteen Petrie's performance, and his owner's pocketbooks. How good exactly was Petrie during the Jim Thomas era? He drafted Peja back in there, but otherwise 1 playoff series in 5 years? Then we hit the goilden era with a coupe of young casino magnates living high on the hog and willing to epnd and spend some more. We have one of the highest payrolls in the league, and Petrie is a genius. Then Webb blows out his knee, and that is the beginning of the end. Its hard to tell who is most disillusioned, the Maloofs or the fanbase, but they close up their pocketbooks and start talking fiscal responsibility. Afterall, what point is there to spend huge bucks on the deepest bench in the league if once you lsoe your star you still can't win? We waddle on now, without the free spedning owners and all of a sudden the luster disappears from Petrie. Then our owners go broke, and all of a sudden Petire is terrible. Is the connection really that hard to make?

I bet Petrie is the one preaching fiscal responsibility more than anyone, especially with the new CBA. I can only imagine how gunshy the tearing down of the team the "free spending owners" put on the floor made him. You don't go out and shoot your wad with a foundation of 22 year olds with such little experience. Great way to screw up your chances of altering things when needed down the line. I think the Maloofs were bailed out to a degree this summer because they almost shot that wad on Jamal Crawford and AK47. Not that I don't think this team will improve and they wouldn't have been nice pieces moving forward, but I'd keep that money if it were me.

The time for the Maloofs to show if they still have it is when it comes to the coaching search if Smart doesn't work out. Now is when they can't look in the bargain department. Now is the time you beat down the doors of the Phil Jacksons, the Don Nelsons, the Larry Browns, and so on. Time to spend real money on a real coach if Smart doesn't look like a long term fit, he still may..

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

I bet Petrie is the one preaching fiscal responsibility more than anyone, especially with the new CBA. I can only imagine how gunshy the tearing down of the team the "free spending owners" put on the floor made him. You don't go out and shoot your wad with a foundation of 22 year olds with such little experience. Great way to screw up your chances of altering things when needed down the line. I think the Maloofs were bailed out to a degree this summer because they almost shot that wad on Jamal Crawford and AK47. Not that I don't think this team will improve and they wouldn't have been nice pieces moving forward, but I'd keep that money if it were me.

The time for the Maloofs to show if they still have it is when it comes to the coaching search if Smart doesn't work out. Now is when they can't look in the bargain department. Now is the time you beat down the doors of the Phil Jacksons, the Don Nelsons, the Larry Browns, and so on. Time to spend real money on a real coach if Smart doesn't look like a long term fit, he still may..

Keep it for what? Stars who won't come here? I mean if AK 47 and Jamal Crawford won't sign here, what are the chances on anyone better signing here? What exactly are you saving the money for?

 

[Section 101]

Should be noted that there was a DISTINCT correlation beteen Petrie's performance, and his owner's pocketbooks. How good exactly was Petrie during the Jim Thomas era? He drafted Peja back in there, but otherwise 1 playoff series in 5 years? Then we hit the goilden era with a coupe of young casino magnates living high on the hog and willing to epnd and spend some more. We have one of the highest payrolls in the league, and Petrie is a genius. Then Webb blows out his knee, and that is the beginning of the end. Its hard to tell who is most disillusioned, the Maloofs or the fanbase, but they close up their pocketbooks and start talking fiscal responsibility. Afterall, what point is there to spend huge bucks on the deepest bench in the league if once you lsoe your star you still can't win? We waddle on now, without the free spedning owners and all of a sudden the luster disappears from Petrie. Then our owners go broke, and all of a sudden Petire is terrible. Is the connection really that hard to make?

Uh the Thomas era started the run. He was still owner when the Webber trade happened, Vlade signed and JWill drafted.

 

[Section 101]

Not for me. You should go back to the pre-2000s to complete the story if you have the energy. People tend to forget that the Kings played from 1985 until 2000. In that era they were pitiful. They had an ownership with no money nor basketball experience and it showed. And their GM was Axelson.

Petrie became GM in 1994. Jerry was the GM the few years before Petrie.

 

[rainmaker]

Should be noted that there was a DISTINCT correlation beteen Petrie's performance, and his owner's pocketbooks. How good exactly was Petrie during the Jim Thomas era? He drafted Peja back in there, but otherwise 1 playoff series in 5 years? Then we hit the goilden era with a coupe of young casino magnates living high on the hog and willing to epnd and spend some more. We have one of the highest payrolls in the league, and Petrie is a genius. Then Webb blows out his knee, and that is the beginning of the end. Its hard to tell who is most disillusioned, the Maloofs or the fanbase, but they close up their pocketbooks and start talking fiscal responsibility. Afterall, what point is there to spend huge bucks on the deepest bench in the league if once you lsoe your star you still can't win? We waddle on now, without the free spedning owners and all of a sudden the luster disappears from Petrie. Then our owners go broke, and all of a sudden Petire is terrible. Is the connection really that hard to make?

I agree about the Maloofs and the effects on Petrie. However, no one put a gun to Petrie's head to make these moves. I don't care what Westy said about getting Salmons or picking up Outlaw, Petrie either agreed, which it looks like he did to a faulty plan, or instead should have said "Paul, that's ridiculous, we've been through the Salmons experiment before, and we're not going back". But Petrie went and pulled the trigger.

Likewise, even if the Maloofs put restrictions on Petrie, which I believe they have, and that's why I want new ownership, it's still on Petrie to allocate that money more efficiently. Even if broke, spending 17M+ on Salmons/Cisco/Outlaw is inexcusable. it's one thing to be cash strapped and dealing with restrictions, but it's quite another to continue to blow money even with restrictions.

If I want a new car, and am on a lower budget than I wish I was, it's still my responsibility to not waste the money I do have on a crappy car. I can't go buy a crappy car, and then turn around and blame my boss for not paying me more, because if he did I would have gotten a better car. Still my fault for buying the crappy car in the first place.

 

[Glenn]

Petrie became GM in 1994. Jerry was the GM the few years before Petrie.

OK, my details are wrong and I suspect that happens quite often. I'd blame it on senility but it was just sloppiness on my part. I'd rather deal with facts than fantasy.

As we focus on Smart, Tyreke, Cuz, Salmons, Jimmer, Petrie, and whoever we wish to whip at the moment, the history of this team has been that when there was an ownership willing to spend money, we did well. That occurred exactly once and I suspect the Maloofs lost money during the "glory years."

Luckenbill had no money and his claim to fame is to bring the team here.

Jim Thomas was an absentee landlord who never even built a home here. I don't know how interested he was in the routine management of a professional team. He seemed bored and maybe overwhelmed that he actually had to do something.

The Maloofs were interested and when they thought they had the world by the nads and were going to be continually cash flush with money from the Palms, we did well. Now they are out of money and unless they have some clever plan for the future (possible) they are beginning to look like they have no money or at least not enough to run the Kings. At the moment we are stuck with that and hopefully revenue sharing will pump some cash our way.

It used to be a fact that when a new arena was built, ticket prices went up 25% or something like that. This is a long ago stat but certainly if a new arena is built, the Kings will have increased income via ticket sales. And good grief, junk Power Balance. It makes us look stupid.

 

[SacTownKid]

Just take a second or two and look at the respective ages and experience levels of the players acquired during that time. That wasn't a team built through the draft, this is, welcome to reality.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

Just take a second or two and look at the respective ages and experience levels of the players acquired during that time. That wasn't a team built through the draft, this is, welcome to reality.

That team was built with a combination of drafting well, making great trades, and singing the right free agents.

 

[JB_kings]

Not for me. You should go back to the pre-2000s to complete the story if you have the energy. People tend to forget that the Kings played from 1985 until 2000. In that era they were pitiful. They had an ownership with no money nor basketball experience and it showed. And their GM was Axelson.

Yep. Kids these days have no concept of what bad really looks like. If they actually could sit still for a few hours and read a book, I would recommend Jerry's book: Reynolds Remembers.

 

[SacTownKid]

That team was built with a combination of drafting well, making great trades, and singing the right free agents.

And you're looking at the situation in reverse now that all is said and done and are STILL compairing major catalysts on that team in players in their prime or entering their prime to a team mostly made up of less experienced players. History shows very clearly the answers you're looking for. If every bad team was just a result of crap players there would be far more turn around in the NBA than there is. There is no excuse for not playing hard, or not trying but I can't honestly say I've seen that even in these last few games. The way they played right before Westphal got canned is what it looks like when a team flat out gives up.

Ok, lets take it this direction. Chris Webber, was he a failure? I don't know if you remember Webbers career pre-Kings but he was pretty much in the same situation in Washington that some are placing these young Kings in now. Think they regret pushing him out the door? Did they turn around when they got a "better" player in Mitch Richmond?

 

[Glenn]

Just take a second or two and look at the respective ages and experience levels of the players acquired during that time. That wasn't a team built through the draft, this is, welcome to reality.

Are you saying you disagree with what I said or are we off on another tangent? JWill, Hedo, and Peja contributed.

 

[SacTownKid]

Yep. Kids these days have no concept of what bad really looks like. If they actually could sit still for a few hours and read a book, I would recommend Jerry's book: Reynolds Remembers.

Really! Bad is where the Kings were just a few years ago. 10th-12th pick year after year in the draft, no cap space, no hope. The Kings don't need anymore top picks IMO, they need to gear their players in the right direction. Don't take a versatile talent and squash them into a box so tiny they regress. Cousins is one of the most dynamic bigs I've ever seen, the potential is all there, somebody has to put it into the right position though. I think Smart gets that and I can't wait to see what he does when he gets a fair shake, he hasn't gotten it yet, not even close.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

And you're looking at the situation in reverse now that all is said and done and are STILL compairing major catalysts on that team in players in their prime or entering their prime to a team mostly made up of less experienced players. History shows very clearly the answers you're looking for. If every bad team was just a result of crap players there would be far more turn around in the NBA than there is. There is no excuse for not playing hard, or not trying but I can't honestly say I've seen that even in these last few games. The way they played right before Westphal got canned is what it looks like when a team flat out gives up.

Ok, lets take it this direction. Chris Webber, was he a failure? I don't know if you remember Webbers career pre-Kings but he was pretty much in the same situation in Washington that some are placing these young Kings in now. Think they regret pushing him out the door? Did they turn around when they got a "better" player in Mitch Richmond?

I see your point but the difference is that when Washington gave up on Webber he was a legit 20 10 and 5 player. No way on earth would I even consider trading Tyreke if he was putting up numbers like that.

 

[SacTownKid]

Are you saying you disagree with what I said or are we off on another tangent? JWill, Hedo, and Peja contributed.

What does that team look like without Webber or Vlade? That's what I'm saying. It's always going to have to be combination of all things but every teams "core" is what is going to make it even remotely viable. This teams "core" has a combined average of about 2.5 years of pro experience.

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

What does that team look like without Webber or Vlade? That's what I'm saying. It's always going to have to be combination of all things but every teams "core" is what is going to make it even remotely viable. This teams "core" has a combined average of about 2.5 years of pro experience.

They actually looked OK without Webber and Vlade in 04/05. Still won like 50 games that year.

 

[SacTownKid]

I see your point but the difference is that when Washington gave up on Webber he was a legit 20 10 and 5 player. No way on earth would I even consider trading Tyreke if he was putting up numbers like that.

When you're bad and you stay bad you will eventually make moves. They didn't move Webber 2 years into his stay there, he was there for 4 years. Tyreke playing badly is still giving you 15, 5, and 5. His worst is about the best you'd get out of some players on an individual basss just a few years ago! He's not playing well, some of it might be fit, some might be him. Time will tell, not the time to start ushering guys out the door IMO. Maybe this summer, maybe at the deadline if it looks and feels right. Not now.

 

[SacTownKid]

They actually looked OK without Webber and Vlade in 04/05. Still won like 50 games that year.

Yeah, and still had the SYSTEM in place with guys to play it and a coach to teach it. Why do you think it is that teams like Miami can lose their stars and still go out and compete with teams for awhile and even sometimes pick up some big wins? It's because role players most times perfect that system even more than it's stars. That 04/05 team still fattened up pre-Webber (as Brick used to say) and it was clear that it wasn't going to go anywhere as is. That's why they created to new potential with Bonzi and Artest, which happened to work. We all know how that ended up unfortunately. I think people need to realize that Petrie may have "lucked" into another insteresting situation with that squad. Bonzi's agent was a clown and in the end, it was probably very smart Petrie did what he did. You do realize that up until last year the Kings would still have had Bonzi on the books for 12 million or so if he had accepted right?

 

[RookieOfTheDay]

When you're bad and you stay bad you will eventually make moves. They didn't move Webber 2 years into his stay there, he was there for 4 years. Tyreke playing badly is still giving you 15, 5, and 5. His worst is about the best you'd get out of some players on an individual basss just a few years ago! He's not playing well, some of it might be fit, some might be him. Time will tell, not the time to start ushering guys out the door IMO. Maybe this summer, maybe at the deadline if it looks and feels right. Not now.

I didn't watch Webber in Washington so i don't know if he had the same problems Tyreke has. My problem with Tyreke isn't really his numbers, per se. I'd be fine with it if he averaged 15 points by getting about that in every game. But he doesn't. He averages 15 points a game by getting 27 points and 25 points in back to back games, then following it up with a string games where he can't even hit double figures. That type of inconsistency makes it impossible for the team to ever really get rolling.