Was it Bibby and Miller on Decline or Musselman system?

[ockingsfan]

A lot of people on this board is so quick to say that Bibby and Miller are on the decline... but they failed to remember that just one year before, they both had career years... Bibby averaged 21 pts/game, 6 asst/game and miller averaged over 15pts/game and almost 7reb/game....

both players had injury plagued years last year... these injuries played a big role in their decline last year... with some rest and good health, and a new coach bibby and/or miller can regain their old form...

also, one thing that a lot of people fail to account for is the Mussleman factor.... with no cohesive offense and and no direction on the defensive end... Musselman never used a system that played to his players strengths... instead he tried to fit all the players into his dysfunctional system, which clearly did not work....

it is possible, with a new coach in Theus, that the players will play up to their capabilities.... hopefully Theus will learn from Musselmans mistakes and play with the cards he was dealt and not try to change these veterans into players they are not...

i believe that Reggie Theus's new uptempo offense will actually help cover for some of Bibby and Miller flaws (i.e defensive weakness) and play to their strong points, and that is offensive scoring and ball movement... up tempo offenses and high scoring games, like with the suns, golden state and mavs (of old) help cover up a lot of the defensive short comings of those teams....

 

[jimbodan]

Even though I absolutely want Bibby gone next year, I don't think he is on the decline yet. I think he will have a good bounce back season next year, I think the wrist injury last year was the main cause of his poor performance, although I don't think Musselman's offense system (or lack thereof) helped matters either. Miller is another story, I think he is definitely on the decline.

 

[VF21]

Even though I absolutely want Bibby gone next year, I don't think he is on the decline yet. I think he will have a good bounce back season next year, I think the wrist injury last year was the main cause of his poor performance, although I don't think Musselman's offense system (or lack thereof) helped matters either. Miller is another story, I think he is definitely on the decline.

I totally agree with you as far as Bibby and our former coach go. As far as Brad is concerned, he was actually doing okay until the plantar fasciitis struck so I'm not sure he's in decline either... or at least not a major decline.

He's been slowing down since the broken leg.

EDIT: So, it's not a matter of "all of a sudden Brad is declining" as much as it's a continuance of a downward spiral that had already commenced.

 

[Jerichoholic]

I agree as well, Musselman was terrible for this team. Think about this, even though it was downplayed, after the first 10 or so games it was said that the Kings would be going back to Adelman's offense that they were used to while trying to incorporate some new Musselman stuff. It was a coach using another coach's philosophy and his own didn't come close to fitting this team.

Theus' system is much closer if not almost exactly like what the Kings used to run and having two passing big men now in Miller and Hawes I think that both Miller and Bibby can flourish again...if healthy that is.

 

[bibbinator]

Personality conflicts can really mess things up.

If the team wasn't feeling Muss, as it seems they weren't, that's a real problem. Unclear leadership is stressful for everyone.

If Theus gets buy in from the players he's going to be a lot more effective and get a lot better results from everyone.

 

[fnordius]

Brad and Mike aren't improving with age, but I agree that the biggest change was not their physical decline. I also don't think it was really Musselman's Xs and Os. I think it was replacing Adelman, a master at chemistry building and efficient utilization of personnel, with someone who didn't utilize players well, and whose only display of great team chemistry came when the players united to kick some butt under Scott Brooks.

I think that a stylistic change under Theus will be helpful; if nothing else, watching the games might become tolerable again. But I'm unsure how much difference it will make in terms of Brad, Mike, or the W-L record. That's going to come down to morale, team building and player utilization, and I have no idea how he'll do at those things.

 

[HndsmCelt]

Why does it have to be an either or? The boys could be loseing it AND Muss had no real system.

 

[allrightythen]

I'd people are being kinda tough on Bibby. He played hurt a bunch last year tried to adjust to Muss's system (whatever that was) and still had a decent year. His numbers did dip some, but not a ton. He had a tough year but all things considered I'd say he did alright.

 

[Bricklayer]

I am not convinced that Mike is truly in decline -- rather I am convinced he is not, and never was, THAT good, and its been exposed just how little he can help you sans system/great players around him. Looking back, its pretty obvious he was as much super-roleplayer when we were at our best as star. Pick n roll, pop, shoot, let Webb and Vlade run the show. And with us rebuilding he has no place in the picture with a contract that says he's a superstar. Should have been gone at the break and would have made our task(s) this summer that much easier. Might have saved us a woss or two down the stretch of the season, which could have gotten us a better pick, would have shaved a huge salary etc.

Now Brad...Brad is in decline. He and Reef both. But basically Brad has fallen off every single year he's been with us, he's injury prone, doesn't work out, and he's into his early 30s now where its possible for even hardworking guys to start to deteriorate. He's capable of more than he showed last season, but who cares? At his very best he wasn't that good either, and now again we are rebuilding, he is aging, and his contract is just stupid.

There is no new era, no rebirth, until these guys are gone.

 

[Merdiesel]

No doubt in my mind Muss screwed up Bibby and Miller's game last season...
They're offensive minded players, and he forced the issue of defense down their throats. They were all out of whack. Not to mention Mike not letting his wrist heal all season, and Miller's plantar fasciitis. Bad year for those two for sure.

 

[Kingzrool]

I am not convinced that Mike is truly in decline -- rather I am convinced he is not, and never was, THAT good, and its been exposed just how little he can help you sans system/great players around him. Looking back, its pretty obvious he was as much super-roleplayer when we were at our best as star. Pick n roll, pop, shoot, let Webb and Vlade run the show. And with us rebuilding he has no place in the picture with a contract that says he's a superstar. Should have been gone at the break and would have made our task(s) this summer that much easier. Might have saved us a woss or two down the stretch of the season, which could have gotten us a better pick, would have shaved a huge salary etc.

Now Brad...Brad is in decline. He and Reef both. But basically Brad has fallen off every single year he's been with us, he's injury prone, doesn't work out, and he's into his early 30s now where its possible for even hardworking guys to start to deteriorate. He's capable of more than he showed last season, but who cares? At his very best he wasn't that good either, and now again we are rebuilding, he is aging, and his contract is just stupid.

There is no new era, no rebirth, until these guys are gone.

I am actually with Brick on this one. Really, when was Bibby anything post Webber/etc.? And Miller, not on decline? Check the rest of the stats. You must be joking.

 

[cfechter]

I am not convinced that Mike is truly in decline -- rather I am convinced he is not, and never was, THAT good, and its been exposed just how little he can help you sans system/great players around him. Looking back, its pretty obvious he was as much super-roleplayer when we were at our best as star. Pick n roll, pop, shoot, let Webb and Vlade run the show. And with us rebuilding he has no place in the picture with a contract that says he's a superstar. Should have been gone at the break and would have made our task(s) this summer that much easier. Might have saved us a woss or two down the stretch of the season, which could have gotten us a better pick, would have shaved a huge salary etc.

Now Brad...Brad is in decline. He and Reef both. But basically Brad has fallen off every single year he's been with us, he's injury prone, doesn't work out, and he's into his early 30s now where its possible for even hardworking guys to start to deteriorate. He's capable of more than he showed last season, but who cares? At his very best he wasn't that good either, and now again we are rebuilding, he is aging, and his contract is just stupid.

There is no new era, no rebirth, until these guys are gone.

I"d have to say that I'm in complete agreement with you here. I think Bibby has something left in the tank as a number two or three on a good team. Even on ours, I think he still has a better year than the last regardless.

Miller though (and SAR), I think he is on the decline and his numbers prove it. Hustle guys wear out by the time they're thirty, and Miller is into his 30's now.

Guaranteed contracts are the bane of the NBA. Imagine how much more competitive/fun the Kings (or any other team with bad contracts) could be if you could just shed terrible contracts. However, it isn't that way and true rebuilding won't begin until we're rid of two of the worst contracts in the NBA (MIller & KT)

 

[Tarindel]

I am not convinced that Mike is truly in decline -- rather I am convinced he is not, and never was, THAT good, and its been exposed just how little he can help you sans system/great players around him. Looking back, its pretty obvious he was as much super-roleplayer when we were at our best as star. Pick n roll, pop, shoot, let Webb and Vlade run the show. And with us rebuilding he has no place in the picture with a contract that says he's a superstar. Should have been gone at the break and would have made our task(s) this summer that much easier. Might have saved us a woss or two down the stretch of the season, which could have gotten us a better pick, would have shaved a huge salary etc.

Now Brad...Brad is in decline. He and Reef both. But basically Brad has fallen off every single year he's been with us, he's injury prone, doesn't work out, and he's into his early 30s now where its possible for even hardworking guys to start to deteriorate. He's capable of more than he showed last season, but who cares? At his very best he wasn't that good either, and now again we are rebuilding, he is aging, and his contract is just stupid.

There is no new era, no rebirth, until these guys are gone.

I totally agree. You summed it up better than I could.

Having KT's contract on the books doesn't help either.

 

[SacTownKid]

I totally agree with you as far as Bibby and our former coach go. As far as Brad is concerned, he was actually doing okay until the plantar fasciitis struck so I'm not sure he's in decline either... or at least not a major decline.

He's been slowing down since the broken leg.

EDIT: So, it's not a matter of "all of a sudden Brad is declining" as much as it's a continuance of a downward spiral that had already commenced.

Not really, Musselman wanted to turn him into Troy Murphy part II shooting thress and all that stuff.

 

[jcassio]

In another post, I did say that I thought Bibby is in decline. But I wasn't reacting to his poor shooting last year; that was a combination of injury, post injury funk, and poor coaching. Rather, I was reacting to the way he gets burned consistently when defending the younger and more athletic players. And that means about 90% of the guys he faces! And when he gets burned, it affects the other defenders who have to cover for him. But he can still be a force on offense, which is why I have suggested that - if he can't be moved for decent value in return - he becomes our instant-offense guy (off the bench). He might have 4-5 more years playing in that role. As a starting PG, he might have 1-2 years left.

Miller and SAR are both in decline, and that should be obvious to anyone paying attention. (They can still run, but they're getting slower, they don't rebound or jump as well as they used to, and they don't score like they used to.) But like C-Webb, Miller can still be a big contributor if used in the right system. Maybe Reggie can create that system, or maybe not.

 

[Wuster]

There is no new era, no rebirth, until these guys are gone.

And so I think they (and Artest) should be traded at even less than perceived fair value in favor of better contract situations, freeing up $ earlier and allowing the team to accelerate the inevitable bottoming in the interest of recreating a winning franchise. Hawes looks to be penciled in as part of that.

 

[Circa_1985_Fan]

I think once Musselman got hit with the DUI, his system went out the door...players didnt follow any direction from him, it was pure chaos, as far as style of play. He really had nothing to offer in the way of leadership...players listened more to Artest than they did him, which probably was better than the alternative. I dont blame Bibby for the season he had, he was recovering from the wrist injury for quite some time, and who knows how he would have played had we had another coach last season even WITH that injury...i.e: Adelman.

 

[piksi]

Muss had no system whatsoever. He also had no clue, no competence, no charisma. He did manage to get paid to "do nothing." Now that is brilliant.

 

[VF21]

He did manage to get paid to "do nothing." Now that is brilliant.

Dude, he's actually getting a hefty paycheck to NOT COACH the Kings. I'm not coaching the Kings. You're not coaching the Kings. Are our checks in the mail?

 

[piksi]

Dude, he's actually getting a hefty paycheck to NOT COACH the Kings. I'm not coaching the Kings. You're not coaching the Kings. Are our checks in the mail?

Life isn't fair

 

[tyrant]

its miller and musselman. bibby is still as good as he was in 2002.