Warriors? IN

[Superman]

Greener pastures, HOW ?

He apparently took lesser money, he was not making both the actual money and the extra that Webber is making now. We dont know if Jazz wanted to retain him, they wanted to go in a different direction and so did he, they did not treat him well during the final years.

Very similar, chosing a team that is a contender with or without you but can be significantly benefitted by adding another experienced player. Impact is not expected and teams fortunes dont depend on that impact, but if there is any that is a bonus for the team.

If he had joined the knicks and taken them to the playoffs, maybe, maybe I will give some credit.

You're joking, right? "Being sarcastic"?

You're a stat man, no? Here's a stat for you: Before Webber joined the Pistons, they were 21-15, a .583 winning percentage. After he signed with them for the veteran mininum, the Pistons went 32-14, a .695 average.

You say the team's fortune didn't depend on his impact, but I disagree wholeheartedly. In fact, that impact contributed to the Pistons propelling themselves above the Cavaliers, Wizards and Bulls to lock up the first seed in the Eastern conference.

Webber isn't the franchise player for the Pistons, but he's showing up the Kings front office, the Sixers front office, and pretty much anyone who doubted that he could be an impact player on a contending team. And what's so impressive to me is that he joined a team whose core had been in place for several seasons already, and blended in almost seamlessly. His presence has translated into more wins for the Pistons. Can't say Karl Malone's presence with the 2004 Lakers did the same; in fact, he spent a large part of the season riding the bench with various injuries.

Malone did not reduce the effort on the court during the Jaz days just cos he didnt like what was going on, you could get the same effort day in and day out, unlike some who tanked it cos they couldnt survive in the system and was pouting every day to the team, media and the owner. Was fined for missing the last game of the season, whether it is relevant game or not you are expected to play the game, are the other 10 guys who showed up fools.

Webber didn't get used in Philly like he was a player who could make a significant impact. I'm not saying he was right for missing the last game of the season; in fact, he was wrong. But the Sixers organization - starting with Jim O'Brien and continuing with Mo Cheeks - misappropriated a huge asset they had at their disposal. Just goes to show how poorly that team has been run since Pat Croce left.

I understand that there is a relationship between Webber and this fan base but I also see that you guys are far more lenient to him than with any other player including some of your own, past or present.

Webber didn't leave the Kings of his own accord; in fact, at a time when other players were making it clear that they didn't want to be here anymore, he was very vocal about his desire to stay and win a championship. And we appreciate his dedication to his fans.

Malone, on the other hand, jumped ship to go play for the Lakers - who were attempting to put together a Dream Team that was all but guaranteed a championship. Joined the bandwagon, had an impact, but was obviously riding the coattails of two players who were much more dominant than he was. There's really no comparison, except that they both played for the minimum.

 

[Arena Skeptic]

Why does that singular post cause a whole bunch of posts in the Arena forum to suddenly make sense to me?

How is what "they" did so different from what "we" did?

I tell you, I go to games, and it always seems to me that...

1) Visiting fans in away arenas are ALWAYS more loud-mouthed than is typical, and

2) Home fans always treat away fans FAR more rudely than they do to anyone else in any other situation (you wouldn't talk to a horrible car mechanic who'd just blown up your trannie as meanly as you treat away fans).

It is what it is.

I went to the Kings at Warriors game last year in Oakland, and there was some loud-mouthed cretin wearing a stupid purple crown that looked like something from a margerine commercial, and all I could think was, sheesh, no wonder they hate us; we're trailer-trash.

This doesn't make some amount of sense to you?

 

[Ryle]

Chris Webber didn't spend his entire career playing for one team, then, as a free agent, decide to go join a team that had two of the best players in the NBA and a nine-time champion coach. He got traded away from the team where he became known as a truly elite player, spurned by the team he wound up with, and then decided to join a team that wanted and needed him.

There are very few similarities between Karl Malone of 2004 and Chris Webber of 2007.

You can also point to the fact that Chris grew up and went to College in Detroit/Michigan and that was a big factor on his decision.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Eh, look at it this way: They've been "tolerating" the actions of Kings fans in "Arco West" for a good, oh, 8 years now. "Arco West"; I didn't just make that up.

Payback's a... Well, you know.

My dad was at the game and said essentially the same thing.

 

[vladetomiller]

I guess in vladetomiller's America, the only standard for "greener pastures" is money. If that's the case, I suppose that I can understand why you wouldn't think of bolting a team heading towards rebuilding for a team that was considered to be the front-runners for the championship was a "greener pastures" situation.

I however, don't live in vladetomiller's America, and saw it for what it was.

Aside from the fact that they're both great power forwards in the twilight of their careers, I can't think of any.

So in your America what is a greener pasture.

The teams that he was considering were Pistons, Spurs, Heat, Lakers and Knicks. I suppose they are all not greener pastures, I suppose choosing the pistons was not a greener pasture cos amongst these teams that is the only team that could guarantee him a starting spot.

If he went to the knicks and took them to playoffs then maybe I can give him some slack, if he went to the celtics to resurrect them or be part of a core that would develop next year, yeah he is not looking for greener pastures, but he chose a team that he thought had the best chance of winning and importantly give him enough playing time inspite of his conditioning.

I dont have any sympathy for a player who sucked so much to be released by the team and dont blame it on the management, he could still come and be diligent about what he is supposed to do and gets paid for. He could still come in and practice hard, teach the youngsters what it is about to play and to win cos he atleast has a CF experience. He forced himself out to be in a situation where he gets paid twice and gets to chose the team he wants to play for the extra buck as well.

You guys argue that a free agent chosing a team of his choice because he wanted to win is worse, whereas you are all defending a person who didnt do the job he was getting paid for, caused so much trouble and got released and then chose a team of his liking for extra bucks. WOW

 

[Superman]

So in your America what is a greener pasture.

The teams that he was considering were Pistons, Spurs, Heat, Lakers and Knicks. I suppose they are all not greener pastures, I suppose choosing the pistons was not a greener pasture cos amongst these teams that is the only team that could guarantee him a starting spot.

If he went to the knicks and took them to playoffs then maybe I can give him some slack, if he went to the celtics to resurrect them or be part of a core that would develop next year, yeah he is not looking for greener pastures, but he chose a team that he thought had the best chance of winning and importantly give him enough playing time inspite of his conditioning.

I dont have any sympathy for a player who sucked so much to be released by the team and dont blame it on the management, he could still come and be diligent about what he is supposed to do and gets paid for. He could still come in and practice hard, teach the youngsters what it is about to play and to win cos he atleast has a CF experience. He forced himself out to be in a situation where he gets paid twice and gets to chose the team he wants to play for the extra buck as well.

You guys argue that a free agent chosing a team of his choice because he wanted to win is worse, whereas you are all defending a person who didnt do the job he was getting paid for, caused so much trouble and got released and then chose a team of his liking for extra bucks. WOW

I don't think the point I'm making (I'll let Slim and everyone else speak for themselves) has anything to do with greener pastures. And it especially has nothing to do with money.

First of all, Malone walked away from the Utah Jazz and joined the Lakers - a team with nothing on their minds but winning a championship, whether Malone was there or not. He spurned the organization and the fans he'd played for for 18 years and jumped on the bandwagon of the team with the best chance of winning a championship. He left his wife for a younger woman, essentially.

Chris Webber got traded to a team that misused him the entire time he was there, a team with no direction, no plan moving forward. Both coaches he played for there nailed him to bench, didn't use his talents correctly on the floor, and spent every waking hour talking about the importance of playing the young kids. Webber, a player past his prime whose clock was ticking, asked to be released from a team that had shown every indication that he wasn't part of their plan, whatever that plan was.

Once said release was granted (and let's not talk about forcing a release so he could make an extra $700,000 on top of the nearly $18 million he was already making; that's just absurd), he signed with a team he'd always been interested in, in the city he grew up in. A team with a good shot at winning a championship, but didn't have two of the most dominant players in the League. The Pistons needed help after losing Ben Wallace, and I'm sure they pursued Webber as much as anyone else. And since he's joined them, they've become the clear favorite in the Eastern conference. That's not jumping onto a bandwagon; that's contributing to the success of a team that was sputtering. And it was a great decision for a player whose stock was consistently dwindling since he got hurt four years ago. That's obvious when you consider the fact that the same media heads who'd written him off and called him a has-been are now making a retraction and lauding him for the way he's blended in to a team that was built without him in mind.

Again, he didn't walk away from the team and fan base that had been loyal to him for almost two decades. He asked out of a bad situation in which he was not appreciated to begin with, and did what was best for his career. Was he a quote-unquote "honorable citizen" in Philadelphia? Absolutely not; but they weren't an honorable franchise, so where does the blame fall? I say who cares? He'll come off their books after next season, and they won't have to worry about him ever again.

I don't have sympathy for very many millionaires, and Chris Webber doesn't need my sympathy, or yours for that matter. I just don't see how you can compare him leaving Philadelphia and signing with Detroit to Karl Malone leaving Utah and signing with the Lakers. You can bash Webber for the Philly situation all you want, and you may be right that he was less than the consummate professional about it all, but it doesn't make him Karl Malone. You keep trying to make it fit, but it just doesn't. It's completely different, on all accounts.

 

[LPKingsFan]

Don't forget Detroit is his hometown team, too.

 

[vladetomiller]

First of all, Malone walked away from the Utah Jazz and joined the Lakers - a team with nothing on their minds but winning a championship, whether Malone was there or not. He spurned the organization and the fans he'd played for for 18 years and jumped on the bandwagon of the team with the best chance of winning a championship. He left his wife for a younger woman, essentially..

It goes both ways, he spurned the org and the org did that to him as well. They did not treat him well during his last year, during the negotiation or in their rebuilding plans, they even stooped down to disgrace him during his first visit. Wife analogy wouldnt work here, maybe a mistress and that too he was the mistress for the team, team wanted to check out the younger girls and he had to leave to show his worth or atleast that he still was worth something.

Chris Webber got traded to a team that misused him the entire time he was there, a team with no direction, no plan moving forward. Both coaches he played for there nailed him to bench, didn't use his talents correctly on the floor, and spent every waking hour talking about the importance of playing the young kids. Webber, a player past his prime whose clock was ticking, asked to be released from a team that had shown every indication that he wasn't part of their plan, whatever that plan was.

Well he didnt behave the best when he was there, so its a chicken and egg story, maybe they wanted to play the kids who showed heart

Once said release was granted (and let's not talk about forcing a release so he could make an extra $700,000 on top of the nearly $18 million he was already making; that's just absurd), .

Why not talk about that, if it wasnt for the money then he could have signed for a $1 deal or maybe say even if it is for the veteran minimum or something he can say that he will donate it to charity, I dont expect him to do that but I have a problem you defending that or saying its absurd

but it doesn't make him Karl Malone. You keep trying to make it fit, but it just doesn't. It's completely different, on all accounts.

Maybe that is right, Malone imo is a much better professional, for all the years that he played he gave it all on the court no matter what the team situation was, he played hard, practiced hard and used offseason to improve himself for the love of the game and was a true professional. He did not have a history of sulking wherever he played except for one franchise for a few years, he did not have many other off court distractions, penalties or literaly speaking court problems.

Malone chose a different team after his contract expired, he did not ask for a trade, he did not sulk, he did not throw in the towel even during the days when the team was expected to lose in the first round of playoffs.
you are conveniently forgetting the fact the lakers pursued Malone the hardest followed by the spurs, Shaq, Kobe, Buss, Mitch and Buss were part of that hard pursuit who needed a solid PF to counter the other PFs in the WC. It wasnt like he begged to join that team, contenders were after him cos they knew he could contribute and be a critical factor.

 

[Warhawk]

Why not talk about that, if it wasnt for the money then he could have signed for a $1 deal or maybe say even if it is for the veteran minimum or something he can say that he will donate it to charity, I dont expect him to do that but I have a problem you defending that or saying its absurd.

Frankly, I'm not going to address your other comments because they are basically absurd.

He cannot sign for less than the league minimum.

Chris is in what, his 13th year? His minimum salary is $1,178,348. Philly did themselves a favor by buying him out so they wouldn't have to pay his salary because they didn't know how to use him.

Do you have ANY idea how much Chris has donated to charity over the years? Any idea how many kids he has given food, toys, and clothes to? Any idea how many students he buys tickets for and bow much time he spends doing community outreach?

Who are you to ask if he donates his additional salary to charity? I bet he does more every year than you will in your life to help kids....

 

[kennadog]

How is what "they" did so different from what "we" did?

I tell you, I go to games, and it always seems to me that...

1) Visiting fans in away arenas are ALWAYS more loud-mouthed than is typical, and

2) Home fans always treat away fans FAR more rudely than they do to anyone else in any other situation (you wouldn't talk to a horrible car mechanic who'd just blown up your trannie as meanly as you treat away fans).

It is what it is.

I went to the Kings at Warriors game last year in Oakland, and there was some loud-mouthed cretin wearing a stupid purple crown that looked like something from a margerine commercial, and all I could think was, sheesh, no wonder they hate us; we're trailer-trash.

This doesn't make some amount of sense to you?

Speak for yourself, I'm no trailer trash, thank you. The behavior you describe is just silly, that's just being a crazy fan, it is not rude. How about being a Kings fan at Arco and every time the Warriors make a basket they scream "in your face" at you? That's rude.

I have always been civil to other teams' fans at Arco when I've been there. It does take some guts to show up in gear and root for your team in someone else's arena. I wasn't rude to anyone in Chicago and no one was rude to me either. And there were a lot of Kings fans there. None of the Kings fans I could see around me were in the least bit boorish or rude.

 

[vytzka]

I'm rootin' for Webb to get his ring so he can shove it in everyone's face.

This won't make me very popular here, but I'd rather wish that Z finally got one. Should Cavs fall someplace on the way, then i'm all for Pistons.

Whether any one of these two won't just get eviscerated in the finals by Mavs or Suns is another question, of course.

 

[vladetomiller]

Frankly, I'm not going to address your other comments because they are basically absurd.

He cannot sign for less than the league minimum.

Chris is in what, his 13th year? His minimum salary is $1,178,348. Philly did themselves a favor by buying him out so they wouldn't have to pay his salary because they didn't know how to use him.

Do you have ANY idea how much Chris has donated to charity over the years? Any idea how many kids he has given food, toys, and clothes to? Any idea how many students he buys tickets for and bow much time he spends doing community outreach?

Who are you to ask if he donates his additional salary to charity? I bet he does more every year than you will in your life to help kids....

Absurd, nice way to discuss things

Charity ?, its not nice to tell the things where you give so I will leave it there, but if I and Chris were in a charity room I wouldnt have any guilty feeling, lets leave it there

 

[hoopsfan]

Speak for yourself, I'm no trailer trash, thank you. The behavior you describe is just silly, that's just being a crazy fan, it is not rude. How about being a Kings fan at Arco and every time the Warriors make a basket they scream "in your face" at you? That's rude.

I have always been civil to other teams' fans at Arco when I've been there. It does take some guts to show up in gear and root for your team in someone else's arena. I wasn't rude to anyone in Chicago and no one was rude to me either. And there were a lot of Kings fans there. None of the Kings fans I could see around me were in the least bit boorish or rude.

I went to the game on Wednesday, by myself, in my Laker gear. I cheered during the intros and clapped a few times during the game and that's pretty much it. I didn't talk to anyone and no one talked to me...some people did, on the otherhand, shout obscenities at me and throw water on me...twice. I almost left early, but wasn't going to let some yahoos make me leave.

 

[6th]

I went to the game on Wednesday, by myself, in my Laker gear. I cheered during the intros and clapped a few times during the game and that's pretty much it. I didn't talk to anyone and no one talked to me...some people did, on the otherhand, shout obscenities at me and throw water on me...twice. I almost left early, but wasn't going to let some yahoos make me leave.

That's awful, hoopsie. People can be such jerks. I am glad not all (insert any team name here) fans act like this.

It's about the game, folks. It is all about the game. Why would we treat a fan of any team like they should not love their team. There is a way to be a fan and a way to be a jerk, and they are not the same thing.....at least for most of us.

 

[hoopsfan]

That's awful, hoopsie. People can be such jerks. I am glad not all (insert any team name here) fans act like this.

It's about the game, folks. It is all about the game. Why would we treat a fan of any team like they should not love their team. There is a way to be a fan and a way to be a jerk, and they are not the same thing.....at least for most of us.

I agree, 6th. I was there for the game. I know that all teams have their jerky fans and it only takes a few to ruin a fun experience. I've been a fan waaaay to long to let it get to me too much.

It just makes me appreciate KF all the more!

 

[Warhawk]

Absurd, nice way to discuss things

If the shoe fits....

 

[Superman]

It goes both ways, he spurned the org and the org did that to him as well. They did not treat him well during his last year, during the negotiation or in their rebuilding plans, they even stooped down to disgrace him during his first visit. Wife analogy wouldnt work here, maybe a mistress and that too he was the mistress for the team, team wanted to check out the younger girls and he had to leave to show his worth or atleast that he still was worth something.

We're obviously going to have to agree to disagree here, because we're starting to go around in circles. The Utah Jazz would have resigned Malone for the vet minimum. He wanted more than that from them, but played for less than that for the Lakers.

Well he didnt behave the best when he was there, so its a chicken and egg story, maybe they wanted to play the kids who showed heart

They never used him correctly, from the moment he got there. And yes, he was disgruntled after being traded, but that's to be expected. He still wasn't used like he could contribute effectively.

Why not talk about that, if it wasnt for the money then he could have signed for a $1 deal or maybe say even if it is for the veteran minimum or something he can say that he will donate it to charity, I dont expect him to do that but I have a problem you defending that or saying its absurd

Because when you're making $18 million, you don't ask out of the contract so you can go somewhere else for an extra $700,000 (which is the prorated amount of his veteran minimum contract for this year).

I don't know the specifics on Webb's charity work, but he's done his share. (See: chriswebberfoundation.org)

Anyways, the point is that Webber didn't ask out of Philly so he could make more money. He hasn't worried about money since he signed his guaranteed, seven year deal with Kings. And it is absurd for you to even suggest that he was milking the system in order to get two paydays. If he asked out of a veteran minimum contract in order to get a long-term deal, that's different.

Maybe that is right, Malone imo is a much better professional, for all the years that he played he gave it all on the court no matter what the team situation was, he played hard, practiced hard and used offseason to improve himself for the love of the game and was a true professional. He did not have a history of sulking wherever he played except for one franchise for a few years, he did not have many other off court distractions, penalties or literaly speaking court problems.

Malone chose a different team after his contract expired, he did not ask for a trade, he did not sulk, he did not throw in the towel even during the days when the team was expected to lose in the first round of playoffs.
you are conveniently forgetting the fact the lakers pursued Malone the hardest followed by the spurs, Shaq, Kobe, Buss, Mitch and Buss were part of that hard pursuit who needed a solid PF to counter the other PFs in the WC. It wasnt like he begged to join that team, contenders were after him cos they knew he could contribute and be a critical factor.

Like I said, I'm done running around in circles with you over this. Webber leaving Philadelphia for Detroit is not the same as Malone leaving Utah for the LA Lakers. It just isn't.

 

[vladetomiller]

If the shoe fits....

Read hoopsies post

 

[vladetomiller]

Supe

One - I think its a misunderstanding on the salary thing, I didnt say that he wanted his way out so that he can get that extra money. I meant that its not like he is losing out on the deal, he is getting paid extra.

I think we can agree to disagree on the rest, I am not going to change my stance on Malone or Webber and you are not going to either.

 

[Warhawk]

Read hoopsies post

Which has nothing to do with what you were discussing.

 

[Superman]

Supe

One - I think its a misunderstanding on the salary thing, I didnt say that he wanted his way out so that he can get that extra money. I meant that its not like he is losing out on the deal, he is getting paid extra.

This is what you wrote:

He forced himself out to be in a situation where he gets paid twice and gets to chose the team he wants to play for the extra buck as well.

Made me think you were saying that money had something to do with his desire to get out of Philly, so he could get paid by two different teams. If that's what you were suggesting, then that's absurd. When you're talking about a player making a guaranteed $37 million over the next two years, there's no need to bring up his second contract as a motivation for wanting to leave.

If that's not what you were suggesting, then fine. I originally said that I wouldn't address it. I only did after you claimed it wasn't a ridiculous idea.

 

[kennadog]

I went to the game on Wednesday, by myself, in my Laker gear. I cheered during the intros and clapped a few times during the game and that's pretty much it. I didn't talk to anyone and no one talked to me...some people did, on the otherhand, shout obscenities at me and throw water on me...twice. I almost left early, but wasn't going to let some yahoos make me leave.

Geez, I'm sorry Hoopsie. I don't get gushingly warm with opposing fans , but I'm never rude to them. Like I said, I think its brave of them, to show up in "enemy" territory and root for their team and especially to wear the gear. I admire them for that.

Its too bad there isn't a better way to police rude and offensive fans. Like two technicals and you're sent to the parking lot.

 

[vladetomiller]

"He forced himself out where he gets paid twice" - It wasnt a case where he would get penalized for forcing himself out, in fact he gets to benefit from it monetarily, however that doesnt mean money is the factor for forcing out

All players under monster contracts can all force themselves out, they are not penalized monetarily is the point.

 

[Packt]

It took a longer and more unusual path, but Muss finally got the Warriors into the playoffs.

 

[hoopsfan]

Geez, I'm sorry Hoopsie. I don't get gushingly warm with opposing fans , but I'm never rude to them. Like I said, I think its brave of them, to show up in "enemy" territory and root for their team and especially to wear the gear. I admire them for that.

Its too bad there isn't a better way to police rude and offensive fans. Like two technicals and you're sent to the parking lot.

That sounds good to me.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

It took a longer and more unusual path, but Muss finally got the Warriors into the playoffs.

Packt wins the thread.

 

[midnightlove1998]

So Cal really doesn't pull for No Cal .... but in this occasion, I really wanted to see G Dub head to the playoffs. Hope they can make some serious noise. Guess that Indy trade was a steal after all.