Voison: Now that he starts, no stopping him

[SacTownKid]

Reef off the bench has worked. I think to his benefit as well. In the starting lineup for this team he wouldn't get the same offensive opprotunity he does off the bench. When Reef is on the floor I want to see him as a 1-2 option, not a 4-5 option which he would be in the starting squad. He's too good for that.

Reef will still get his minutes.

 

[VF21]

^^Exactly.

And Shareef is most likely very happy to be on a team with even a shot at the playoffs.

 

[kennadog]

^^Exactly.

And Shareef is most likely very happy to be on a team with even a shot at the playoffs.

Hell, yeah!

 

[thesanityannex]

I may be overreacting, but I think it's nonsense. You're trying to tell me that if Bibby went down with an injury and Garcia came in and we went on a winning streak and he was getting 9 assists a game ... you'd be for Bibby on the bench? No ... all anyone would say is "wait till Bibby gets back".

The Bibby/Garcia comparison is a stretch. Veteran to rookie stretch. I think you care about this more than Reef. He seems like the guy that would rather have a win then a starting job. He is what is called a TEAM player.

 

[thesanityannex]

This is garbage. I hope Reef demands a trade after the season.

Can we keep Reef and trade his fan's???

 

[Bricklayer]

The Bibby/Garcia comparison is a stretch. Veteran to rookie stretch. I think you care about this more than Reef. He seems like the guy that would rather have a win then a starting job. He is what is called a TEAM player.

Perhaps, but he wasn't happy coming off the bench in Portland, and apparently turned down chances to be the 6th man for both San Antonio & Miami this past offseason.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

vs.

I'm ignorant, who's the soccer dude?

 

[thesanityannex]

Perhaps, but he wasn't happy coming off the bench in Portland, and apparently turned down chances to be the 6th man for both San Antonio & Miami this past offseason.

I thought Reef said he wanted to see the playoffs for his first time, wouldn't San Antonio have been the logical choice?



Anyways..........No one wants to be the 6th man. I've always wondered why there was an award for it. Did Bobby Jackson want to be the 6th man?

The 6th spot is crucial. Our 6th spot happens to be at the PF position. We have two decent PF's. Not great, not terrible. Whatever combination has been working, needs to be kept. Time is running out. This team has tweaked this lineup plenty much, no changes needed at this point.

Which ever man is more willing to accept the role at this time will be of more value to his team. SAR seems to be accepting it, let it be.

 

[thesanityannex]

I expect the SAME treatment for Bonzi then.

Rule #15- Impact players get special treatment.

 

[vj9999]

I'm ignorant, who's the soccer dude?

Dragan Stojkovic - Piksi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragan_Stojkovi%C4%87

You have probably seen him before on piksi's avatar.

 

[playmaker0017]

Rule #15- Impact players get special treatment.

That's laughable.

 

[playmaker0017]

Reef off the bench has worked. I think to his benefit as well. In the starting lineup for this team he wouldn't get the same offensive opprotunity he does off the bench. When Reef is on the floor I want to see him as a 1-2 option, not a 4-5 option which he would be in the starting squad. He's too good for that.

Yes, he is too good for that and he's also too good to be a 1-2 off the bench.

Does no one realize he's the only player on this roster capable of scoring 20+ PPG off of 15-16 shots? He's the best scorer we have.

I know Reef hasn't been here as long as Bibby. Bibby needs three screens to get his points and all but dominate the offense. Bibby required 17-18 shots to get 20PPG. Artest. Artest is an unknown and I think he's more of a 17-18PPG guy, he's good when he picks his spots. Miller, come on?!

I know I've pounded him down your throats but think about it - he was already scoring 16-17 PPG on 12 shots. He should be option 1-2 in the starting lineup.

People bag on his defense, yet he's the best defender outside of Artest. He's not a lane-filler, but neither is Miller. What's Miller bring? The ability to hit an uncovered jumpshot and standstill passing? I'm sorry I don't see the overwhelming value in that. I like him, but I just don't see why he's so valuable while Reef isn't?

I don't see how everyone can overlook the fact that the lineup that has produced the most offense and defense consists of:

Garcia, Martin, Artest, Reef, Thomas

Notice the two missing pieces ... the two guys that disappear at the defensive end.

People bag on his rebounding ... he's a career 8-9 rebound per game guy ... do you think it just "disappeared"? Come on. You're all smarter than that! I pointed out a back tweak and no one listened. He comes back and people think he's all of a sudden magically getting rebounds. NO! He was hurt.

No one gives him the same "breaks" they extended Artest for a hip pointer (not that terrible of an injury).

So, he loses his starting role to injury? He EARNED his spot and loses it because he's got a teammate who whines?

Yeah, I'll sit back and enjoy watching the rest of the season. I'll hope KT is traded. If not, I'll hope Reef goes somewhere he's appreciated for what he can bring to the game and not nitpicked because their "core" couldn't compete.

 

[bigbadred00]

When did he earn the spot? He's only been here less than a year and he's played decently well (high fg% and decent D) but nothing to say, nobody can get your spot.

Your almost homerish when it comes to SAR. Do you get this, if Kenny comes off the bench he plays like crap. The same can't be said for SAR. Does SAR want to get to the playoffs, because without Kenny playing well, it's going to be a struggle? And didn't SAR say he wanted to get to the playoffs.

SAR is no TD, KG, Amare. He's never been the best player on a good team and hasn't gotten the right to claim his spot. I like him, but if he's playing well and the team is playing well with him off the bench good. With Kenny (who I personally don't like or dislike more than SAR), we are playing pretty well.

You act like SAR is in Jason Hart's feet, a guy who is decently talented, has definitely underperformed to what he's done in the past, and hasn't gotten any minutes (Jason's played like crap this year though). That's not the case at all. Team's have found out (maybe it's just bad luck), that SAR as the #1 player doesn't seem to win a ton of games.

As much as you can't admit it, SAR hasn't been the ultimate difference maker this year. He's been good but never that great. He's never been the goto guy on this team and I doubt he'll ever be. If he's not comfortable being a more of a role player role, than ship him out. Personally, I think he's doing fine in his role, but if you don't believe that than so be it.

 

[playmaker0017]

When did he earn the spot? He's only been here less than a year and he's played decently well (high fg% and decent D) but nothing to say, nobody can get your spot.

The beginning of the year. He worked his way into the starting lineup through preseason and into the regular season.

Decent defense? Decent? I love how people throw that around. His defense has been borderline great. Comparison - Reef holding his man to 44% shooting and 13.9PER -- KT is "holding" his man to 51% shootin g 18.2PER. A good example for Reef's "decent" defense is comparing him to Tim Duncan - 44%/14.9PER. How about Garnett? 45%/16.6PER. Is Reef as good as those two? No. Those two are great. They offer more help side effect than Reef, but he's playing on their level on his man.

Yes, he's never taken this team on his shoulders - but when has he had the chance? I don't believe for one minute that KT could score with Shareef.

Your almost homerish when it comes to SAR.

Correction - I AM Homerish.

Do you get this, if Kenny comes off the bench he plays like crap. The same can't be said for SAR. Does SAR want to get to the playoffs, because without Kenny playing well, it's going to be a struggle? And didn't SAR say he wanted to get to the playoffs.

So, you start someone because they CHOOSE to play awful from the bench? You start the guy that has HIS interests before the team?

It would leave a sour taste in my mouth.

I can say this - it does the same to Reef as well. He'll sit back and be a good soldier, like always. But, just because he's a good soldier doesn't mean he's a happy soldier.

He wants to make the playoffs and won't do anything to disrupt that push. But, I can say that he won't take it after the off-season.

He's never been the best player on a good team and hasn't gotten the right to claim his spot

That's because he's never been part of a good team. Right now, he's the second best player on a decent team. Not many people are better than Artest, all around. But, Reef is still the best, most efficient scorer.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

He wants to make the playoffs and won't do anything to disrupt that push. But, I can say that he won't take it after the off-season.

What's he gonna do? Quit?

 

[playmaker0017]

What's he gonna do? Quit?

The precident has been set hasn't it? Play like *** and let the world know you are unhappy and won't play well unless you start ... and you get to start. KT set that situation up. Everyone knows he can perform better than he was. He was CHOOSING to play poorly and is rewarded for that.

So, hasn't the bar been set? Why shouldn't Reef stew and pout? Hmmm? That's why a team can't cave to that type of behavior.

But, that's not Reef's style. He wouldn't do that. He'll always play hard. What he will do is ask for a trade.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say no chance; if he's not gone by 15:00 today, he's probably going to be here for some time, whether he likes it or not.

 

[bigbadred00]

Question: Are we losing? Who gives a crap who starts? THe facts are Kenny plays about 32 mpg since the change and SAR plays about 22 mpg even though he's been hurt. I see that changing ever so slightly to about 30 and 25 or something. If starting doesn't matter, who cares. Obviously you think SAR cares. How do you know? You only assume.

 

[DeAtHrOw]

Every time things turn for better we just have to go out and stir up the pot.

Like I said, it's funny how KT "does not care" about starting or subbing now that he is a starter. Wish he had that attitude coming off the bench instead of whining.

With that said the bottom line is that the team wins and as long as the team is winning WHO CARES who starts and who subs.

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

[bigbadred00]

The precident has been set hasn't it? Play like *** and let the world know you are unhappy and won't play well unless you start ... and you get to start. KT set that situation up. Everyone knows he can perform better than he was. He was CHOOSING to play poorly and is rewarded for that.

So, hasn't the bar been set? Why shouldn't Reef stew and pout? Hmmm? That's why a team can't cave to that type of behavior.

But, that's not Reef's style. He wouldn't do that. He'll always play hard. What he will do is ask for a trade.

Your honestly being rediculous. SAR does not get Webber rules (getting to start after getting rediculously hurt) because he has no real presedence with this team. Actually, Kenny has been here longer. If you said SAR isn't selfish, he shouldn't care. But obviously your saying, SAR is two faced, he doesn't show that he cares but is really bugged at it.

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

... Be obviously your saying, SAR is two faced, he doesn't show that he cares but is really bugged at it.

That's an interesting comment and, all things considered, I don't know which personality I'd rather have; I mean, Thomas might be a crybaby and a jerk, but at least he's honest about it...

 

[bigbadred00]

That's an interesting comment and, all things considered, I don't know which personality I'd rather have; I mean, Thomas might be a crybaby and a jerk, but at least he's honest about it...

I'm not saying it, I'm just interpreting what he's saying. I honestly don't think it's factual to any degree.

 

[Big Cuz 15]

We will not win anything with either Reef or Thomas starting...Voison remains an idoit. Since Thomas is doing well now, find a taker for him and lets bring in a real power forward.

YES master yoda! i totally agree~ lets build him like we built up webber b4 he was dealt. webb had a couple triple double games b4 we shipped him out.

 

[love_them_kings]

The precident has been set hasn't it? Play like *** and let the world know you are unhappy and won't play well unless you start ... and you get to start. KT set that situation up. Everyone knows he can perform better than he was. He was CHOOSING to play poorly and is rewarded for that.

So, hasn't the bar been set? Why shouldn't Reef stew and pout? Hmmm? That's why a team can't cave to that type of behavior.

But, that's not Reef's style. He wouldn't do that. He'll always play hard. What he will do is ask for a trade.

I hate KT's attitude. Whether he was choosing to perform badly or just in such a mental funk he couldn't perform, I think it's ridiculous that he can't play off the bench & be a bigger man. I wouldn't mind seeing him traded, and have SAR as our starter long term. But right now the focus is winning and the playoffs. Not hurt feelings, not egos, not anything. This is do or die time, and Adelman is going to do what he thinks will benefit the team most.

I like and respect SAR a great deal. I think he's a great player. But if he comes out & requests a trade after repeatedly saying he's fine coming off the bench, and he just wants the team to win, he'd be more than a little hypocritical. SAR either is, or is not, the classy, selfless player he has painted himself to be in the press. If he asks for a trade it would appear that those statements are just for show.

 

[playmaker0017]

But if he comes out & requests a trade after repeatedly saying he's fine coming off the bench, and he just wants the team to win, he'd be more than a little hypocritical. SAR either is, or is not, the classy, selfless player he has painted himself to be in the press. If he asks for a trade it would appear that those statements are just for show.

No, that's not necessarily true.

Reef wants to win and is a standup guy. But, he also wants to play basketball. He wants to be a big part in success, not an afterthought. Making the playoffs as a sub off the bench does little to dispel the notion that he's a "loser". It means that he had to be carried to the playoffs.

He decided not to go to San Antonio to "sub" so that he could lose a misnomer.

So, him requesting management to move him in the offseason so that he could become a player that starts and helps a team win would not be out of character.

He's being more magninomous than most players in this league right now, I promise.

If you said SAR isn't selfish, he shouldn't care. But obviously your saying, SAR is two faced, he doesn't show that he cares but is really bugged at it.

That's not being two-faced - it's called being diplomatic. It does nothing but hurt the team for him to complain. He's saying the right things to keep the team in unison - just like a good soldier should. Towing his fair share of the line doesn't mean he has to like it.

It shouldn't be a question of whether he'd rather start or come off the bench. He'll do what the team needs in the short-term, but he came here with a certain expectation and promise - if the team doesn't fulfill their end of the deal then it would make sense for him to seek employment elsewhere, yeah?

Would it behoove the team and Shareef to come out and publically demand to start and mention that you are peeved you lost your position due to injury? No.

I can't see how you would perceive Reef's desire to start, without injuring his current situation, is selfish. Selfish would be saying he won't play off the bench and making a stink. He'll keep going through the season and then ask for a change. It's the right move. It's the unselfish move. Both he and the team get their needs met that way.

Is it "selfish" to leave one company for another when the one company isn't giving you the satisfaction you wanted? The chance for advancement you believed you'd get?

 

[bigbadred00]

Wow your absolutely rediculous, playmaker. The definition of hypocrite or being two faced is exactly what you stated. You say 1 thing and mean another. If SAR really gave a crap about starting (something you have never proved to anyone but yourself) he would have done something about it. With that being said he's performed mightily under his new role. On a team that yes does focus mainly on the starting lineup this is a big deal. But he's the 6th man, he does play more than 20 minutes a game and he is playing well and the team is starting to come together.

If he doesn't like that, ship him out. He's a player we need but we can live without. Honestly I don't think your sentiments are shared with anyone but yourself who seem to put SAR on the same level as Amare, TD, and KG. SAR is a good quality player in the league and that's that. And I think that's all he'll ever be. With that being said, that's all we need. If he doesn't think that'll work, he can leave. But I doubt he will. I think your the one exaggerating the situation that doesn't exist for only intentions within yourself because you are a homer.

 

[Yoda]

YES master yoda! i totally agree~ lets build him like we built up webber b4 he was dealt. webb had a couple triple double games b4 we shipped him out.

Oh yeah, we built him up so we could make a better deal I would hate to see the deal we would have made had we not have "built up" Webber.

 

[playmaker0017]

Wow your absolutely rediculous, playmaker. The definition of hypocrite or being two faced is exactly what you stated. You say 1 thing and mean another.

First, ridiculous. It never was and never will be "red"iculous. Just a pet peeve.

Second, when one says hypocrite or two-faced it's implying a duplicitous or decietful nature. He's not speaking out of one side of his mouth and believing something else. He has said he will do what the coach asks and produce in whatever role he's assigned to. That's a LONG stretch to him saying he doesn't care about starting.

Not once have I read that Reef has said that he doesn't care about starting. He said he will accept whatever role he is assigned to this team - and he will.

He is doing it currently. He will continue to do so. When the season is over, Reef will talk to management.

If SAR really gave a crap about starting (something you have never proved to anyone but yourself) he would have done something about it.

First, that would be detrimental to the team. What's he supposed to do? Tell the media he's not happy coming off the bench? That's productive. That's helpful.

I'd even be opposed to him doing that. That IS selfish.

Second, I know the guy personally. I promise you, he cares. I promise you that his feelings are hurt.

Honestly I don't think your sentiments are shared with anyone but yourself who seem to put SAR on the same level as Amare, TD, and KG.

I've never compared him to any of those players. Everyone else makes that comparison.

He can score with any of them, of that there is no doubt.

Outside of Amare, they all bring a defensive/rebounding presence to the game that Reef doesn't. He's a good defender, but doesn't change the game. He's a decent rebounder, but they are great.

I think your the one exaggerating the situation that doesn't exist for only intentions within yourself because you are a homer.

Okay. If that's how you feel, that's cool.

 

[bigbadred00]

That's how I feel, it seems to be prevalent among most people on this board. Some reason you stretch a topic that you believe to be the truth which seems to have no truth.

From your POV, if he doesn't start he should leave? From our POV, if he plays well he should stay especially if we start winning. Your implying that because he doesn't start he has a problem. That's what asking for a trade means. You have a problem with the situation, and you said previously he has no problem with the situation but you said he wants a trade thus implying he has a problem with the situation.

You can't have both sides of this. Either, he doesn't give a crap, will come of the bench if Adelman does it, or he gives a crap, doesn't say anything, and asks to be traded. Your saying, he doesn't really care that much because he's a nice guy but he wants to be traded if this problem remains. This makes absolutely no sense.

This isn't a TO like situation, this is some small situation that for some reason you continue to blow up. IF we were losing and Kenny was playing like crap, you might have an argument. But the team is finally starting to look as it was supposed to be, a successful team, and now because you believe (I guess now, since you know him, how SAR feels) SAR feels disrespected since he lost his starting role after what 30 games that he deserves his spot again, although the team is finally starting to click.

Next thing I'll hear is you personally know Jason Hart and he wants his spot in the starting lineup or he'll ask for a trade.

The key thing is the team is starting to play well, hopefully getting Bonzi back doesn't ruin this. If SAR doesn't understand his role (I think he does, or atleast seems to), he doesn't have to be here. I hope he choses to be here cause we need him, but if he's as selfish as you sometimes portray him (Selfish players blow) since if he doesn't get what he wants he'll want to be traded, then forget him.

 

[playmaker0017]

From your POV, if he doesn't start he should leave?

Yes.

From our POV, if he plays well he should stay especially if we start winning. Your implying that because he doesn't start he has a problem. That's what asking for a trade means. You have a problem with the situation, and you said previously he has no problem with the situation but you said he wants a trade thus implying he has a problem with the situation.

Has he asked for a trade today? Has he done anything untoward?

No and no.

Does he feel slighted? Not exactly, not yet. He's still recovering and he understands that. But, it's going to frustrate him.

He still won't make a stink or a complaint. He'll let the scenario play out and ask for a change in the offseason, which is the correct forum for such an issue.

Does he want to win? Certainly. Does he want to sit the bench and play 20 minutes in order to win? No, he's too talented to believe that he can't contribute.

You can't have both sides of this. Either, he doesn't give a crap, will come of the bench if Adelman does it, or he gives a crap, doesn't say anything, and asks to be traded.

Where have I, or Shareef, said he doesn't care? I've must have missed that part.

He may say it flippantly, in order to dispel any turmoil, but Reef is usually pretty careful in his word selection. In fact, what I remember him saying is that he'll do what the coach asks and produce in any situation. That neither implies or suggests he's happy about it. It is simply him saying that he will do as the team asks ... but don't expect for him to wish this team upon himself for long if that's the case.

Your saying, he doesn't really care that much because he's a nice guy but he wants to be traded if this problem remains. This makes absolutely no sense.

Again, where have I said he doesn't care? Where has he said he doesn't care?

I said, and he's implied, he'll do what he's asked and not complain during the season. That's it, that's all. Asking for more is stupid.

IF we were losing and Kenny was playing like crap, you might have an argument. But the team is finally starting to look as it was supposed to be, a successful team, and now because you believe (I guess now, since you know him, how SAR feels) SAR feels disrespected since he lost his starting role after what 30 games that he deserves his spot again, although the team is finally starting to click.

Are they clicking because of Thomas? I doubt it.

Next thing I'll hear is you personally know Jason Hart and he wants his spot in the starting lineup or he'll ask for a trade.

That's just a stupid thing to say.

The key thing is the team is starting to play well, hopefully getting Bonzi back doesn't ruin this.

Will Bonzi sit the bench? Should he?

We're gelling and Martin is playing better than he did off the bench.

I hope he choses to be here cause we need him, but if he's as selfish as you sometimes portray him (Selfish players blow) since if he doesn't get what he wants he'll want to be traded, then forget him.

Wait, he's selfish because he'd prefer to start? He's selfish because he'll accept his role for this year and prefer to be in a better situation next year?

You need to work on your definition of selfish, my friend. Selfish is choosing to play like garbage off the bench and making snide comments to the media about the fact that you think you should start ... oh wait ... around here it gets you a starting position.