Voison: Now that he starts, no stopping him

[Mr. S£im Citrus]

That's a statement of opinion and I gave the reasons why. Again, I didn't call him a fartknocker or a goober-doodie-face or some jerky name. It was a statement of fact.

I thought you just said it was an opinion; make up your mind, please.

Reef coming off the bench is option #1.

I haven't really seen that.

You haven't? Who, coming off the bench, gets more shots than Abdur-Rahim?

And I contend that Artest is our best post player.

 

[thesanityannex]

Why not admit that what I'm saying MIGHT have some merit?

I mean, really, I fail to see how anyone can argue that he's not the most efficient scorer we have and been completely underutilized.

I've never had anything bad to say about Reef. I absolutely love his post game and work ethic. I don't have blinders on though. I would rather see the right letters stacking up in the right column, the W column. To me, that is all that matters. Its obvious we aren't on the same line of thinking there.

Do me a favor, I'd like you to ask Reef a question from me. Give him two scenarios and tell him to choose one.

#1 Reef gets to start again, but the Kings go back to their old ways and begin losing again, only to miss the playoffs.

#2 Reef continues his great play off the bench, the Kings keep their recent winning trend going, and they make the playoffs.

 

[CaminoChaos]

Re

Kenny Thomas and SAR are putting up the same numbers but the difference is Thomas is pulling down 4 or 5 more rebound per game as a starter.

 

[playmaker0017]

And I contend that Artest is our best post player.

It'd be nice if somehow it was true, wouldn't it?

In Ron's best shooting percentage year he was 58.8% from inside and drew fouls 13.3% of the time.

In Reef's worst year - playing out of position on a team where teams crowded the middle - he shot 63.3% and drew fouls 13.8% of the year.

In an average year - Artest shot 58.1% and was fouled 14.5% of the time. Reef shot 63.2% and was fouled 16.5% of the time.

Ron is a good inside player - but he's not Reef's caliber. Ron always had great players around him to help his cause too. Reef didn't get that.

 

[thesanityannex]

Kenny Thomas and SAR are putting up the same numbers but the difference is Thomas is pulling down 4 or 5 more rebound per game as a starter.

Impossible. SAR is by far the best post player and is the most efficient scorer on the team. This is lunacy.

 

[playmaker0017]

the W column. To me, that is all that matters. Its obvious we aren't on the same line of thinking there.

I also think the W is important. I just don't think we get W's because Reef is on the bench.

Really, the only thing people are saying is that KT would whine so he should start. That's illogical to me.

Do me a favor, I'd like you to ask Reef a question from me. Give him two scenarios and tell him to choose one.

#1 Reef gets to start again, but the Kings go back to their old ways and begin losing again, only to miss the playoffs.

#2 Reef continues his great play off the bench, the Kings keep their recent winning trend going, and they make the playoffs.

There's no question. But can you be certain that those are the only two scenarios?

 

[thesanityannex]

I also think the W is important. I just don't think we get W's because Reef is on the bench.

I don't think we get W's because Reef is on the bench either. I think we get W's because Thomas is the better fit with the starting unit and is more productive in this role. The bench role hasn't seemed to affect Reef's productivity.

Really, the only thing people are saying is that KT would whine so he should start. That's illogical to me.

You are starting to sound like KT.

There's no question. But can you be certain that those are the only two scenarios?

Can I be certain? Of course not. But by merely following the recent trend of this team, it is likely.

 

[playmaker0017]

Kenny Thomas and SAR are putting up the same numbers but the difference is Thomas is pulling down 4 or 5 more rebound per game as a starter.

That is true.

KT is pulling down more rebounds. 2 more than Reef was before his injury to be specific.

KT is also letting his man grab 1 extra rebound more than Reef allowed his man to pull down per game. He's also letting his man score an extra 5 point while shooting an extra 5% better.

Reef has been a career 8-9 rebound guy. KT is a career 8-9 rebound guy. Don't you think the injury I mentioned might have something to do with Reef not rebounding where he used to? Then mystically - he rests for a few weeks and wham - he's getting rebounds.

Or do we all believe in fairy tales around here - where players just don't know how to play off the bench and when they start they become good and guys mystically become better rebounders when they sit on the bench?

 

[VF21]

I am hereby withdrawing from this now meaningless discussion. It's a shame that any thread NOT entitled "SHAREEF is the savior of the Kings" can't be allowed to progress and discuss players NOT named Abdur-Rahim.

...sigh...

 

[thesanityannex]

^^^^^^^

VF21-

It is kind of hard to discuss Thomas without discussing SAR. If only we could somehow combine the two.

 

[playmaker0017]

You are starting to sound like KT.

That's true.

Someone ought to point out the absurdity in the way Reef has been used.

Reef earned the spot by being the superior player. It's wrong to lose a spot to injury. So, like I said, the proof of the nonsense will be how Bonzi is treated.

Can I be certain? Of course not. But by merely following the recent trend of this team, it is likely.

The only problem we had before was that we didn't have Artest and our bench played like a bunch of NBDL scrubs.

One of those players, refusing to earn his paycheck, has been handed the starting spot.

That's just frustrating to me. If Reef lost the position because he was underperforming, then so be it. But, he should be reinsterted into the starting lineup the moment he feels healthy enough to go. If we seem to play worse, than remove him. I wouldn't complain vehemently. It'd be a fair testament. Reef in the current lineup doesn't work.

But, he doesn't even get the chance.

Being the good guy ... he gets crapped on.

 

[playmaker0017]

I am hereby withdrawing from this now meaningless discussion. It's a shame that any thread NOT entitled "SHAREEF is the savior of the Kings" can't be allowed to progress and discuss players NOT named Abdur-Rahim.

I've never professed that Reef is the savior.

I think he's probably the second best player on the squad and doesn't get his due. I think he's mismanaged and underutilized.

Poke fun all you want, but it's funny that when faced with a realistic argument backed up with statistics and facts - all a lot of people can do is resort to insulting or barbed jabs.

It's cool, though.

I know I've pushed a lot of people away from Reef, and that's what it is. If anyone wanted to look objectively at what I'm saying - I've never said anything that's not backed up.

You all have your favorites.

 

[thesanityannex]

Reef earned the spot by being the superior player. It's wrong to lose a spot to injury. So, like I said, the proof of the nonsense will be how Bonzi is treated.


The only problem we had before was that we didn't have Artest and our bench played like a bunch of NBDL scrubs.

One of those players, refusing to earn his paycheck, has been handed the starting spot.

That's just frustrating to me. If Reef lost the position because he was underperforming, then so be it. But, he should be reinsterted into the starting lineup the moment he feels healthy enough to go. If we seem to play worse, than remove him. I wouldn't complain vehemently. It'd be a fair testament. Reef in the current lineup doesn't work.

But, he doesn't even get the chance.

Being the good guy ... he gets crapped on.

You can't compare the Bonzi/Martin situation to the Thomas/SAR situation. I don't see the logic in that. Each situation is entirely different.

Bonzi-Veteran>Martin-Rookie
where
Thomas=SAR

All this complaining from you, and Reef still isn't 100% so there is no reason for him to start. And when he gets to 100% and if he starts, you will then complain that he is not the focal point of the offense. Looks like its a lose-lose for you.

 

[dunkondem]

Time for a K9 homer to chime in… It puzzles me that posters refer to K9 as a whiner or infer that he was not producing in hopes of being made a starter. When has poor play ever resulted in more minutes for a player? Kenny did without a doubt express his desire to start in the beginning of the season. I do not recall any remarks since where he complained about not starting, the only other mention regarding his role came when a reporter asked about his production and he pointed to a lack of minutes. Please remember Kenny was not playing more then 16 until SAR got hurt. If anyone whines is SAR to the officials on every other call, enough with the stupid technical fouls.

I believe the team benefits when Kenny plays along side Mike and Ron. SAR on the other hand seems to need the ball to have any effect on a game, thus playing him with players that are willing to defer is to his benefit. Kenny is willing to due the dirty work and does not demand the ball, this free up opportunities for the others and also allows him to concentrate on rebounding. If you need an example just watch the difference in how they set a pick.

As for defense I think each have their strong points. SAR has a superior reach and defends well at times when opponents are looking to isolate in the post. K9 is a much better help defender, and can also defend the pick and roll due to his speed and athleticism. I think too many poster on this forum are looking for someone who can lock down the Duncan, Garrnet and Amare’s of the world. These guys are superstars for a reason; if they have a bad game it’s more likely a result of them not playing up to par rather then a defender shutting them down. In my opinion there are only a handful of true defensive stars in the league (Bowen, Artest and Ben Wallace), be happy the Kings have one!

GO KINGS!!!

 

[Warhawk]

Look, playmaker007, I think you're beating your head against a wall here and it is a wall of your own making.

None of us control PT for the Kings players. Gripe all you want, but none of us has the power to bring about what you want.

We all like SAR (at least most of us do ), but he's been njured and he himself has said he's still trying to get back into playing condition and weight that he was before the injury.

The coach has shown repeatedly that when a player comes back from injury they get their position back. SAR may be the starter soon. We'll see soon.

The coach also has the responsibility to play the players in the combinations that best give the chance to win games. I know you think SAR should play 48 minutes/game. We get it. Really. Maybe, based on practices and the team's evaluation of game tape, there are things that they see in KT they like with the starting group and the combination of SAR and the bench for some reason. Can you understand that? Can you get that maybe certain combinations of players, regardless of skill, can work better than all your "best" players? You just seem incapable of understanding that that may be a possibility.

I like SAR better than KT. I also know I like the W's we've been getting with the rotation we are using. I prefer to give the coach the benefit of the doubt on rotation when we are winning for the first time this season. Why don't you go bring it up with Rick personally if you feel so strongly about it. I'm sure SAR would be able to get you a meeting all lined up with the Maloofs, Petrie, and the coaches, because you obviously see something they don't....

 

[thesanityannex]

It's cool, though.

I know I've pushed a lot of people away from Reef, and that's what it is. If anyone wanted to look objectively at what I'm saying - I've never said anything that's not backed up.

Well, you sure haven't pushed me away from Reef. I think he is a very skilled player and an asset to the TEAM.


And.........Its quite hard to look objectively at what you are saying when most of what is written is blatantly subjective.

 

[playmaker0017]

I'm sorry everyone.

I realize I push Reef REAL hard ... and I do it because:

A) I do care
B) It gives me something to talk about
C) I really like going back and forth with members of this forum

I'm not doing it to be a dick or anything. I just enjoy matching wits and discussing the only thing I watch in sports until Bama takes the field.

I really enjoy the conversations with people here - even if we don't see eye to eye on a lot of things. We don't have to.

I apologize if I get under people's skin with the Reef thing. I do push it a little too hard a lot of the time. It's because at the end of the day - basketball boils down to one variable to me and that's Reef.

I'll try to tone it down a bit, if ya'll will give me the benefit of the doubt sometimes and just understand I'm venting a lot of the time. I'm just getting it out of my system to people I consider my peers during the season.

You all need to vent when the team is failing. Trade this person, trade that person, the team is moving, it's all the coaches fault, etc,etc ... I vent when the team fails and more so when Reef is failing or being mismanaged (in my opinion).

I don't want to be a condescending ***. I don't mean to be when I'm chatting. It's just how I type.

So, give me a break, gang.

Now, that I did my warm-fuzzy for the evening ...

GO KINGS!

boohiss KT! Go Reef!

 

[thesanityannex]

Warhawk and Dunkondem-

Well said. You both pointed out things I've been saying, but managed to put it into one post for easier reading and comprehension.





In summary:

The Kings have been winning with Thomas starting and Reef coming off the bench.

Simple solution:

Start Reef precisely 1 min, make playmaker0017 happy, then bring Thomas in and continue with normal rotation.














Question: Were Peja homers this dedicated?

 

[Yoda]

Question: Were Peja homers this dedicated?

Oddly enough, only in their hatred for CWebb.

 

[playmaker0017]

Oddly enough, only in their hatred for CWebb.

See - I'm fair. I spread my hatred evenly to the guy that just took 18 shots while Reef takes 9.

I make no concessions for anyone.

At least I'm consistent, yeah?

 

[VF21]

Question: Were Peja homers this dedicated?

Rank amateurs. The real homer award, IMHO, goes to the Hedo fanatics. They were scary...

And the Chinese fans that followed Chen...

 

[Gary]

Yah Im pissed at KT for being a cry baby (non-vocal cry baby but still being a cry baby). He played like crap off the bench. WAY below his potential. SAR is playing like a man off the bench, and I am impressed how well he has adjusted to it.

 

[thesanityannex]

SAR is playing like a man off the bench, and I am impressed how well he has adjusted to it.

This has impressed me as well. I have the upmost respect for Reef. But if it ain't broke....................

 

[Chris Cobb]

There has been a whole lot of arguing on this thread considering the original article was stating how well the Kings are doing with their current situation. Case in point the Kings are winning right now. All we are doing is stirring a big controversy when there is none. So how about put a lil trust in Adelman, and watch the games. If KT starts doing worse or SAR goes better, I'm sure Adelman will make the adjustment. Until then,

GO KINGS & BEAT LA

 

[GoGoGadget]

That is true.

KT is pulling down more rebounds. 2 more than Reef was before his injury to be specific.

KT is also letting his man grab 1 extra rebound more than Reef allowed his man to pull down per game. He's also letting his man score an extra 5 point while shooting an extra 5% better.

Reef has been a career 8-9 rebound guy. KT is a career 8-9 rebound guy. Don't you think the injury I mentioned might have something to do with Reef not rebounding where he used to? Then mystically - he rests for a few weeks and wham - he's getting rebounds.

Or do we all believe in fairy tales around here - where players just don't know how to play off the bench and when they start they become good and guys mystically become better rebounders when they sit on the bench?

When you mention his injury -- would this be the broken jaw, or the phantom ambiguous back injury that I haven't seen mentioned ANYWHERE except your posts.

I'm just curious.

EDIT: I'm not one to hold back in anything that's on my mind, but I posted this before reading your kinda-apology for being a condescending ***. So, I'm sorry too.

In short, I'm keeping my snotty response, and my snotty tone -- but I'm acknowledging that it's snotty.

 

[playmaker0017]

When you mention his injury -- would this be the broken jaw, or the phantom ambiguous back injury that I haven't seen mentioned ANYWHERE except your posts.

His back.

The timing of me mentioning his back issues coincides with a dramatic decrease in rebounds. Take it for what it's worth.

EDIT: I'm not one to hold back in anything that's on my mind, but I posted this before reading your kinda-apology for being a condescending ***. So, I'm sorry too.

It wasn't a kinda-apology. It was real.

In short, I'm keeping my snotty response, and my snotty tone -- but I'm acknowledging that it's snotty.

I expect nothing less.

 

[kennadog]

You all have your favorites.

Yes, a lot of people definitely have their favorites...mine is the Kings. (I actually wrote a much longer post then decided it added nothing to the discussion really. )

 

[Gasol16]

I really enjoyed watching Shareef in the begining of the season but lateley I think the chemistry of this team and the presence of Ron Artest has sort of changed Reef's role. I think Adelman feels that he will have enough post in the paint with Ron Artest and therefor places KT in the starting lineup. But we have noticed that Artest does have some trouble posting up because teams figure it out and double team him but does a good job on finding the open man on that type of situation.

 

[LilMissDiva]

Rank amateurs. The real homer award, IMHO, goes to the Hedo fanatics. They were scary...

And the Chinese fans that followed Chen...

LOL, those were the days...

yikes!!