How long did it take for them to become the players they are? It certainly wasn't right out of the gate.
Voisin: Martin / Evans not working
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How long did it take for them to become the players they are? It certainly wasn't right out of the gate.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
It wasn't their athleticism that they lacked early on though.
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Kingsguy881
Guest
Dude, you are talking about a ROOKIE!!! So, you are telling me that Dwyane Wade never got better from his rookie year? SERIOUSLY??? You think Wade's jumper never got any better? Dude, Wade couldn't hit the broadside of a barn when he shot jumpers. This year he is really putting it down from 3pt range but that wasn't part if his game until last year. Goddamn quit being so damn ignorant. Tyreke is a rookie and you are acting like he has hit his ceiling. This is getting a little ridiculous.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Leaping ability isn't a relevant consideration when it comes to dribbling the ball or creating, and I'll take Reke's speed, strength, length and quickness against any of those guys at 20. Well...maybe not LeBron, but that comparison is nonetheless made for a reason.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
I didn't say he wasn't very talented or that he wasn't a great one on one player, but when it comes to team basketball and winning, his ball hogging and high volume chucking is not conducive to championship level offense. He was a player that was very hard to build a successful offense around because he was all about getting his own.
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Kingsguy881
Guest
Tyreke doesn't lack athleticism!!!! So he doesn't jump hella high all the time, he made a nice flying across the lane layup last night that displayed all the athleticism someone with arms that long needs. Tyreke's athleticism is just fine for his game.
I guess we have us here another one. Dang vlade4gm, I didn't have you pegged as one but you sure are showing your true colors with these latest posts. This is what really frustrates me about the posters on this website. A lot of you act like the sky is falling in the midst of Tyreke's rookie season, like he has hit his ceiling already. It's PATHETIC!!!
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Kingsguy881
Guest
You're lost. He's a rookie. You would have given up on Kobe in his rookie season too if this is your attitude. And someone else would have those 4 championship banners in their rafters.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Just because 'Reke can't jump into the tenth row of the bleachers doesn't mean he's a bad athlete.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
Out of all those athletic categories I'd only give Evans the clear advantage over Kobe in terms of strength early on, but as with we saw with Kobe that can be improved upon. Quickness, speed, explosiveness, leaping ability, it's hard to quantify but as far as how I see things I don't see Evans being at those guys' level.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
Where did I say he was a bad athlete?
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
When you say that someone is lacking athleticism, it's kind of implied. Just like how someone lacking intellect implies ignorance or stupidity.
Gary
All-Star
Agree, but at the same time there ARE players in the league that are better than average roleplayers that would have been able to fit with Iverson's style. Just never happened in Philly in his prime.
It's basically what I have been saying about Evans since the draft.. He will not be able to run a team successfully unless someone else in the back court can play to his style. We don't need another star in the back court, we need a Derek Fisher type player who can bring the ball up then hand it to Evans. We need one big man that can feed off of Evans when he's trying to take it into a group who he could pass it off to. The rest can be good role players for all I care.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
I didn't say he lacked athleticism, I (essentially) said he lacked elite athleticism that players like Kobe, Wade, and LeBron had/have.
So since I don't think he has the upside of Wade means I think he has already hit his ceiling, or that the sky is falling? You are reading way too much into my posts.
I'm not trying to bash him, I'm just trying to call it the way I see it because it's important to point out the kind of player he is when addressing how we need to build around him. His ball dominance is an issue that has to be addressed as it will affect the kind of offense we'll have to have.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
What I meant was that their games didn't grow to the very high level as it has since their rookie years by their athleticism improving, they already had elite athleticism at the early points in their careers. I'm not saying that Evans is a poor athlete, just that he isn't at their level.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
Shooting is probably the easiest skill to improve upon, but Wade had a leg up on Evans as far as shot mechanics go.
To mods: Are you going to let these personal attacks go?
K
Kingsguy881
Guest
Asking you to stop being ignorant is a personal attack? Whatever.
It seems like everyone from the LA area is a Tyreke hater. Must be something in the water.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
Sure, but is that the way to build a championship level offense though? With ball dominant guards like Evans, you generally have to either become a very high level defensive team or get a high level post scorer that can play off that guard. Considering it's very hard to come by post scorers of that quality, it would probably be a better idea to build a more defensive team with offensive role players, which is actually what Cleveland has had to do.
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Vlade4GM
All-Star
So you equate not thinking he's as good as Kobe/Wade/Lebron to hating?
Arco Thunder
Bench
I never thought I would say this, but I think Kevin's days are numbered as a King. I don't know when it's going to happen (may be at the end of the year), but I believe it will be best for the team when it does happen.
Sparky6string
Bench
That's a little more cynical than I tend to be. Seems to me like you might be trying to vilify Iverson, and make the facts fit your theory rather than make your theory fit the facts. He has thus far averaged 6.2 apg, and had 6 seasons where he averaged over 7 apg. He shared the ball then and he still does.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
Assist don't automatically mean a player is unselfish, when he has the ball as much as he does he's going to get assists from bailout passes.
Relax dude. People are allowed to have different opinions. And just because not all of us are convinced reke can walk on water doesn't mean were haters, bandwagon fans or ares's cousins.
Sparky6string
Bench
Tell that to Carmelo Anthony and Kevin Durant.
Tyreke has always been used to having the ball in his hands. He was the standout in high-school, where you can easily dominate a game by giving the ball to your best player and telling everyone else to get out of the way.
Memphis's offense was a dribble-drive penetration offense, where, again, you put the ball in the hands of your best player and allow him to create by driving into the defense and waiting for the holes to appear. Often times, if you win the individual match-up, you're going to take it all the way to the rack. Which is why pairing him with another slasher/penetrator in the backcourt isn't the best of ideas. You do need a spot shooter who can rotate the ball and find open spots on the perimeter. It won't work unless you're going to fill your team full of SFs and try to run a wacky 5 out motion offense.
There's an adjustment period in the NBA, where, on most nights the help defense and overall athletic ability will not allow this same style of play to succeed as well as it has on lesser levels.
Evans will improve - he doesn't seem like the type that thinks he's a finished product, and I'm pretty sure he'll put in the necessary work to improve.
Memphis's offense was a dribble-drive penetration offense, where, again, you put the ball in the hands of your best player and allow him to create by driving into the defense and waiting for the holes to appear. Often times, if you win the individual match-up, you're going to take it all the way to the rack. Which is why pairing him with another slasher/penetrator in the backcourt isn't the best of ideas. You do need a spot shooter who can rotate the ball and find open spots on the perimeter. It won't work unless you're going to fill your team full of SFs and try to run a wacky 5 out motion offense.
There's an adjustment period in the NBA, where, on most nights the help defense and overall athletic ability will not allow this same style of play to succeed as well as it has on lesser levels.
Evans will improve - he doesn't seem like the type that thinks he's a finished product, and I'm pretty sure he'll put in the necessary work to improve.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
He has better passing ability and they don't really dominate the ball as much as Iverson did.
Leaping and explosiveness to the hole is relevant for finishing, off the ball cuts, getting calls and making the plays that get you NBA recognition.
Reke can get to the hole, but it takes a lot for him to get there and often by the time he gets there, the defense has had time to recover, so Tyreke takes a lot of difficult, acrobatic layups in traffic. When people see him do this, they remark how athletic he is, but if he had the explosiveness of Wade/Lebron/Etc, he could not only beat the help to the rim but finish at the rim much easier. Add in that fast moves help cutting and you can use Tyreke off the ball more often. Then you factor in how making those dunks gets you the endorsements that help gets you Superstar status, and you realize that Tyreke's lack of explosion might be one of the things that keep him out of that unquestioned Superstar tier and be one of his ultimate undoings.
Gilbert Arenas had this same problem.
All you and the Tyreke crew do is eventually bail on the discussion and resort to strawmen and various attacks on character.
I see this pattern far too often:
A: I question Tyreke's ability to run this offense
B: He's still a rookie!
A: The problem may be unlearnable, it just doesn't seem his game. He is a one on one guy, always has been, etc, etc...
B: So was Kobe/Lebron/Wade
A: They aren't PGs
B: WHY ARE YOU STUCK ON THE PG LABEL
A: Because its the label the organization gave him
B: Why does it matter then
A: I want the team to succeed
B: You just a hater
A: Come on now
B: You wish Tyreke was a white guy
A: wtf
est.1999
Starter
I'm just happy we have a guy that we have to actually have a debate on what type of team we have to build around him with. Not all teams can say that. Point guard shmoyns guard who gives a rats azz where he plays. We have so long before we actually have this team where we want it. Right now it's like we just planted seeds in a farm and we're waiting for it to sprout but at the same time we need someone to look over the crops(GP) cause some of the crops may die and we have to make sure that enough of them grow to be great products and then add to this product in the future
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