Voisin: It's a test of King-sized wills

[VF21]

No, they are not. I hardly know any adult person that likes being treated like a child. Personally, I deeply detest it and if someone treats me that way, you can guarantee I'm not going to want to listen to what they have to say and likely won't. I wouldn't be able to listen through the seething red fog of anger.

I would like to know who here would want to work for a boss who treats them like a child? Would that sort of treatment elicit your best work? If so, why does that work for you?

Exactly!

There is a middle ground that will need to be found - and quickly - if Reggie is to succeed at this level. You can be tough AND have the respect of your team if you do it right. I still think Reggie went a little too far, especially with the threat of fining Salmons. He (Reggie) has been a player; he knows the frustrations they feel when their roles are changed; he's been on a struggling team.

Things got heated and the press got wind of them. If Reggie and the team sit down and iron this out, things should be fine. If he adapts the "my way or the highway" approach, he'd better be careful. He might not like the result.

I will again say that I have been a Reggie Theus fan for a long time. I WANT him to succeed. But I'm not going to pretend I think he's incapable of making errors. We all make errors. In this case, I think people have already identified all the pressures Theus is under and so, if he makes the occasional misstep, it's not only understandable it's totally predictable. It will be how he handles things from this point forward that matters.

As far as the players go, they need to adapt, too. But at the end of the day, it's all about the one word Reggie made so important he actually had shirts printed up with it on them. It's about TRUST. And it's a two-way street.

This is a learning time all the way around. All we can do is hope that as the team stands there in water up to their waists, surrounded by alligators, they can remember their original objective was to drain the swamp.

 

[nbrans]

Starting Artest over Salmons and still giving him 25+ minutes is treating him like a child? And he's supposed to put up with him storming out of the locker room?

McCants put up a carreer high against Martin, Martin still played 36 minutes, and is upset because he is "benched"?

Mikki Moore...MIKKI MOORE...is glaring at that coach for pulling him after an abolutely pathetic start to the season?

Shareef - he pulls after one minute - and apologizes privately and publicy because it was disrespectful. Vows to not do it again

None - Not one - of those reactions by Reggie is out of line or treating them like children. The players walked over Muss last year and small a rookie coach the same way a jr high class smells the weakness of a substitute teacher. Reggie has to know if he lets the players walk over him for those instances above he is really going to lose the team

Yanking guys in and out of the lineup, criticizing them in the press, banning cell phones, instituting a curfew.... that's treating players like they're high schoolers.

If it was just a minutes thing and Reggie treated players fairly but did what he had to do, yeah, they might be still be unhappy but the situtation wouldn't deteroriate as rapidly as it seems to be. One power forward or another was going to get his nose out of joint, maybe Salmons is being a prima donna, but when you have an unhappy bunch and a coach doing an impersonation of an overzealous hardass coach it makes a bad situation that much worse.

 

[BLNINJA #81]

I have faith that there will be some tact shown on the part of Reggie. Personally, I have not much of a middle ground, and based by some of the replies of people who know him, he may be able to get out of this situation without much damage. That still remains to be seen however.

 

[sidney]

Yanking guys in and out of the lineup, criticizing them in the press, banning cell phones, instituting a curfew.... that's treating players like they're high schoolers.

If it was just a minutes thing and Reggie treated players fairly but did what he had to do, yeah, they might be still be unhappy but the situtation wouldn't deteroriate as rapidly as it seems to be. One power forward or another was going to get his nose out of joint, maybe Salmons is being a prima donna, but when you have an unhappy bunch and a coach doing an impersonation of an overzealous hardass coach it makes a bad situation that much worse.

I agree with that. The minutes, playing time, and lineup changes I think are all respectable moves. That is the important part of being a coach. The cell phone/curfew is a battle that I think is unwise to take on. He's already going to be dealing with enough already without adding ticky tack rules that are out of the league norm.

 

[VF21]

The cell phone/curfew isn't being protested. What you guys may think is objectionable is clearly different than what the players themselves have problems with.

He didn't BAN cell phones. He disallowed the use of them on the team bus. BIG DIFFERENCE. As far as the curfew goes, they're on the road to do a job - not go club-hopping all night. So far, I don't think there's been any kind of objection to that rule, either.

This is about treating the players with trust and respect, and not letting his own frustrations cause Reggie to say and do things - ESPECIALLY IN THE PRESS - that are way out of line. And yes, my feeling has shifted somewhat on that. At first I thought he was simply being honest. It's happened too many times, though, now - and it appears as though Reggie is trying to discipline through the media. And that will not work...ever.

 

[Jerichoholic]

I still think most of you are targeting the wrong guy, it doesn't appear to me at least that Theus' ego is getting in the way, I blame the players. Let's turn everything around and give the player what they want. Then KT starts with Shareef getting the majority of bench minutes. Hawes, Watkins, and Williams get limited playing time because they are not complaining.

We'll have to bench Artest who might be our best player to accomodate Salmons or we can play Artest consistently at PF where he will get dominated by the big forwards of the west. But we can't do that either because that would anger KT and Shareef.

Oh, and Martin is perfect, never makes a mistake so the coach should never have to speak to him. If you want to talk to Kevin Martin talk to his agent.

And I haven't heard Theus bad mouth a player in the media, he has been nothing but honest and his actions seem to match his words. The problem is the players...not the coach.

 

[kingsfan101]

When this explodes (and it will), someone will be picking up pieces for years to come

Could this some one be Petrie? Does anyone have any idea if he can coach?

Now, usually, the idea of a GM/coach is a bad one. A GM, particularly for a team positioned where we are, has to think long term. A coach is usually concerned about here and now.

If however, we do end up firing Theus (I know it's too early to talk about that, just thinking aloud), we are faced with the following dilemmas

• We shall be paying two guys who are not working for us. Not sure if the owners shall be willing to pay a third guy at the same time.
• Who would like to walk into a small market team, lingering on the fringes of the league, and having serious chemistry issues? We are again likely to get an unexperienced coach/some one who has failed earlier, and is looking for a second chance (Muss). It might still be possible to get lucky and land up with someone good, but chances are less.

Under the circumstances, getting Petrie to coach the team he has created, while cleaning it up might be the only option available. It shall appeal to the owners too, since it shall not cost them anything extra.

 

[fnordius]

The players walked over Muss last year and small a rookie coach the same way a jr high class smells the weakness of a substitute teacher.

The only thing Reggie has in common with Muss is that both seem to think that if you act like Jerry Sloan, you are Jerry Sloan, and that there's no need to actually earn respect from your players. This worked for them with college and CBA teams. It has yet to work in the NBA. But Muss started off in Sac with a losing record in the NBA, then got himself arrested, then lost the team, and quickly made it onto everyone's list of NBA coaches most likely to get fired. Reggie has far more job security than that, if only because the Maloofs are NOT going to like the idea of paying 3 coaches at once. The Maloofs now realize that we don't have the roster to win, so the only way his job can be in danger is if he bungles things in the most horrible fashion imaginable. A mere 22-60 season would not do it. Short of spitting on Granny Maloof, he almost cannot be fired. So nobody's going to look at him as a substitute teacher, because he'll be back tomorrow and the next day, for the foreseeable future.

However, they may do like most of the vets did last year; ignore the guy and go through the motions of playing basketball. Because what's he gonna do? He can fine them a few thousand dollars if they just walk out on him, like Salmons did, but our average player works off a $5,000 fine in less than 5 minutes on the court. He can't fire them. He can't ask to trade them to a worse team, because there aren't any. He can cut their minutes, but what if they don't care, or even prefer that? The youngsters will probably play hard regardless, because they're doing it for their careers, not for a coach. The vets are multimillionaires who needn't do more than clock in, so they will only play hard if someone inspires them to. If they want to shoot 0-8 and grab 1 rebound per 48 minutes, there's not a blessed thing Reggie can do about it.

I didn't like it when we had a coach with no experience as a player in the NBA, but this is a reminder that you can be Isiah Thomas and still be one of the worst coaches in NBA history. While I don't know how much of this Bee stuff to believe, if there is much truth to it, I hope that Reggie will realize that NBA vets don't play hard just because someone's yelling at them or cutting their minutes. They play hard when someone gets them excited about it.

 

[Jerryaki]

Starting Artest over Salmons and still giving him 25+ minutes is treating him like a child? And he's supposed to put up with him storming out of the locker room?

Don't mind Theus taking this route. He knows this will not be a winning season so would call this season a success if he creates ...b) a place where playing time is earned and not given due to past success/ego.

those two statements seem incongruous.

Deep down Theus is a supremely confident and stubborn guy, and I'm sure he will not back down from his game of chicken. Of course, when both sides "win" a game of chicken it involves a horrific head-on car crash. We're just about there.

well, at least we won something.

 

[kennadog]

And I haven't heard Theus bad mouth a player in the media, he has been nothing but honest and his actions seem to match his words. The problem is the players...not the coach.

I'm not sure what your definition of "bad mouth" is. Theus, from the minute he came on board has made critical and sometimes demeaning statements about players by name or clear implication of who he was talking about.

Were they "honest" statements? Maybe they are honest/true, or at least maybe those were the "facts" from his point of view. I just don't think those kind of statements belong in the media. Reporters can't fix your problems. To fix problems he's going to have to have the cooperation of the players. Tired old adage, but true, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Everybody brings up Sloan and Popovich as examples of tough coaches. Tell me how often have you seen either publicly criticize his players. Heck, Sloan didn't even comment on Kirilinko's statements in the off-season.

 

[sidney]

those two statements seem incongruous.

Artest was serving a suspension, not playing poorly. big difference

 

[Jerichoholic]

I'm not sure what your definition of "bad mouth" is. Theus, from the minute he came on board has made critical and sometimes demeaning statements about players by name or clear implication of who he was talking about.

Were they "honest" statements? Maybe they are honest/true, or at least maybe those were the "facts" from his point of view. I just don't think those kind of statements belong in the media. Reporters can't fix your problems. To fix problems he's going to have to have the cooperation of the players. Tired old adage, but true, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Everybody brings up Sloan and Popovich as examples of tough coaches. Tell me how often have you seen either publicly criticize his players. Heck, Sloan didn't even comment on Kirilinko's statements in the off-season.

Everyone talks about these comments made to the media, do you have some examples of those? Any that can be taken as out of line? Here's what I can remember as some of his main ones.

About Miller in offseason: "I want him to be a main component of our offense but in order to do that he needs to get in better shape, he's carrying a few extra pounds right now."

About Martin: "He has the talent to be a top defender in the league, he just needs to focus on that as much as his offense.

About Shareef's agent: "Complaining to the media is not going to get your guy more playing time, it's only going to make you and him look bad."

About Thomas: "Artest had his tooth knocked out and he continued to practice. Another guy missed the rest of it because he got kicked in the shin." This possibly was too much but he didn't mention the player's name or even give a clue to who it was, Sam Amick is the one who said it was Kenny.

That's all I can think of that are even remotely over the line, I don't believe any of them are though. Do you know of any that I'm forgetting?

 

[bloom]

Reggie’s coaching style is untraditional for out team. We saw what happened last year and we don’t want to make the same mistake. I personally feel that Reggie won’t make the same mistake, he’s much different than Muss...Somebody mentioned the word “trust” on this team and I agree. We have to gain trust (not just the coach but each player on this team). I think in due time, if the team starts working together (whether it’s this year or the next) and they have the discipline or whatever Reggie is working on, I think the players will appreciate his approach. Well, maybe not the players who aren’t producing and getting minutes but the rest will (hopefully). But I’m going to give this guy more time before I jump his throat.

About Shareef's agent: "Complaining to the media is not going to get your guy more playing time, it's only going to make you and him look bad."

I remember how Jason Heart's agent did the same thing, I hated that.

 

[Jerryaki]

Artest was serving a suspension, not playing poorly. big difference

but he hasn't played at all, whereas john has shown his mettle in the first 8 games. i feel that if theus were serious about the "earn your minutes" thing, then john deserved the nod at starter until artest at least got himself back into game mode.

 

[The Hammer]

Everyone talks about these comments made to the media, do you have some examples of those? Any that can be taken as out of line? Here's what I can remember as some of his main ones.

About Miller in offseason: "I want him to be a main component of our offense but in order to do that he needs to get in better shape, he's carrying a few extra pounds right now."

About Martin: "He has the talent to be a top defender in the league, he just needs to focus on that as much as his offense.

About Shareef's agent: "Complaining to the media is not going to get your guy more playing time, it's only going to make you and him look bad."

About Thomas: "Artest had his tooth knocked out and he continued to practice. Another guy missed the rest of it because he got kicked in the shin." This possibly was too much but he didn't mention the player's name or even give a clue to who it was, Sam Amick is the one who said it was Kenny.

That's all I can think of that are even remotely over the line, I don't believe any of them are though. Do you know of any that I'm forgetting?

Agree totally. But the thing of it is, I think no coach we've had has been this open and direct with the media (us, really) about the players and what he's thinking about them. But I'm sure there are things that he does keep behind closed doors.

 

[jcassio]

No, they are not. I hardly know any adult person that likes being treated like a child. Personally, I deeply detest it and if someone treats me that way, you can guarantee I'm not going to want to listen to what they have to say and likely won't. I wouldn't be able to listen through the seething red fog of anger.

I would like to know who here would want to work for a boss who treats them like a child? Would that sort of treatment elicit your best work? If so, why does that work for you?

Out of context, dude! Come on, now. I was talking about life's maturation process from birth to death, and how - in that context - NBA players are still children (more or less) while the coaches have to be part parents.

 

[Bricklayer]

Ok, thing is that Reggie isn't even using a terribly good model. Teh Jerry Sloan he played for? Young, dumb, got fired. Did not reemerge as a head coach for another 6 years. And that older Jerry Sloan did soemthinig that reggie is ignoring -- he formed an alliance wiht his best players. ALL good long term coaches take this critical step. If you war with your best players, it is you, not they, who lose. Pop may be a hardass, but he and Duncan have a perfect understanding, and that is why he has had success. Sloan courted and developed an understanding with Stockton and Malone, and that is why he had his success. Neither guy treated his top players like children, because frnakly, that is childish in itself. Shows you to have the ego problme as much as them.

Reggie needs to shape up, to learn (a sign of intelligence), to shape up. And he needs to court his top players as allies. He can NOT aford to alienate a Kevin, a Ron, a Mike. And here, briefly, he may thank Ron;s early suspension for giving him a possible leg up, if he does choose to learn. Ron has been sitting out along with Mike, and its no coincidence that maybe the last two guys saying sweet nothings about Reggie are the two guys who haven't played for him yet. Handled correctly, he has a clean slate with them. And he needs them desperately. In one game, ron came in and completely took over the team last game. He has both the personality and game to do it. And Reggie needs him as an ally, more badly now than he would have before the season, because he needs a leader on his side. If he continues to make it into a coach vs. all the players thing, he will lose. He needs the team's leaders/best players as allies. And if he's not scared of Ron Artest, of what can happen if Ron joins the pissed off parade, then he's really not terribly bright and I'm not going to shed too many tears after he gets himself fired.

 

[kennadog]

Out of context, dude! Come on, now.

If I misunderstood, I apologize, but you did say NBA players are children and the coach has to be the parent. If it was just an analogy, then I think it's not a very good one. Adults should not treat other adults like they are children or being childish. It will get them no where fast.

 

[jcassio]

If I misunderstood, I apologize, but you did say NBA players are children and the coach has to be the parent. If it was just an analogy, then I think it's not a very good one. Adults should not treat other adults like they are children or being childish. It will get them no where fast.

I guess it's OK to just disagree on this. Some are defensive about NBA players being looked at or treated like children. Yet some others think they are spoiled brats who need to be punished by a strong father-figure. I actually think the ideal is somewhere in-between. You don't call them children and you don't treat them like spoiled brats, but you also don't let them get away with childish, self-centered behavior. It's that game of give and take, and picking your battles carefully. It works for parents and for NBA coaches.

 

[kennadog]

Everyone talks about these comments made to the media, do you have some examples of those? Any that can be taken as out of line? Here's what I can remember as some of his main ones.

About Miller in offseason: "I want him to be a main component of our offense but in order to do that he needs to get in better shape, he's carrying a few extra pounds right now."

About Martin: "He has the talent to be a top defender in the league, he just needs to focus on that as much as his offense.

About Shareef's agent: "Complaining to the media is not going to get your guy more playing time, it's only going to make you and him look bad."

About Thomas: "Artest had his tooth knocked out and he continued to practice. Another guy missed the rest of it because he got kicked in the shin." This possibly was too much but he didn't mention the player's name or even give a clue to who it was, Sam Amick is the one who said it was Kenny.

That's all I can think of that are even remotely over the line, I don't believe any of them are though. Do you know of any that I'm forgetting?

I don't think any of those needed to be said to the media. I don't think they are very likely to get your players wanting to work harder for you.

Discuss it at practice where it belongs, between coach and players. Talk to the media and there is no relationship going on, except between Reggie and the media.

Would you work harder for your boss, if he took out ads in the paper, TV and radio to tell everybody that you really screwed up that last assignment he gave you or you were ill-prepared for your job and better shape up or you needed to focus on being a better writer? If that really works, then to me it would be bad enough if he told me all that in front of my co-workers.

 

[fnordius]

I guess it's OK to just disagree on this. Some are defensive about NBA players being looked at or treated like children. Yet some others think they are spoiled brats who need to be punished by a strong father-figure. I actually think the ideal is somewhere in-between. You don't call them children and you don't treat them like spoiled brats, but you also don't let them get away with childish, self-centered behavior.

I see some differences. Society, and the law, barely even consider children to be persons. They are in a state of wardship, much like an insane or senile person might be. So even if their parents are total idiots, as long as the idiocy doesn't rise to the level of criminal, the kids pretty much just have to suck it up.

What you're talking about is much more like trying to forcefully discipline Donald Trump.

 

[Jerichoholic]

I don't think any of those needed to be said to the media. I don't think they are very likely to get your players wanting to work harder for you.

Discuss it at practice where it belongs, between coach and players. Talk to the media and there is no relationship going on, except between Reggie and the media.

Would you work harder for your boss, if he took out ads in the paper, TV and radio to tell everybody that you really screwed up that last assignment he gave you or you were ill-prepared for your job and better shape up or you needed to focus on being a better writer? If that really works, then to me it would be bad enough if he told me all that in front of my co-workers.

I see your point and it makes sense to me but it is still a breath of fresh air for a coach to actually put things how they really are. You always hear people say about politicians to put away the canned answers and tell what you are going to do like a normal person. Well Reggie is doing just that, attribute that to his belief system at best or inexperience at worst, either way it is good for the fans who are fleeing in droves from Arco right now.

The best players and guys with positive attitudes don't take these things personally or they use it as motivation but they don't complain about it. They might look at themselves in the mirror and say you know what, coach is right.

Us fans in Sacramento really have never seen how things are behind the scenes like some other teams. With guys like Adelman and Petrie all you got were boring canned answers, we didn't feel as connected. I think now that the curtain is being pulled back we are seeing something we never expected...many of our beloved Kings players are selfish crybabies. They were probably like that last year and probably before that, we just didn't know about it.

Perhaps we may have a different type of Jailblazers situation here where the fans won't tolerate these kind of attitudes on their favorite team and won't come back until we ship them out.

 

[Bricklayer]

Perhaps we may have a different type of Jailblazers situation here where the fans won't tolerate these kind of attitudes on their favorite team and won't come back until we ship them out.

Or perhaps we are learning the value of having those curtains kept shut in the first place.


Airing dirty laundry in the public can in no way improve the aroma around any team, no matter its personnel.

 

[SDKing]

according to this http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Facts.asp nearly 3 billion people in the world live on less than 2 dollars a day. I'm sorry, if you are paid millions of dollars to play a game, you shut up and do whatever you're told and do it with a smile. While I love this team and this sport and the opportunities available to us in this country, it's still a game.

That being said, adults need to be treated like adults, but they need to act like them too.

 

[VF21]

Airing dirty laundry in the public can in no way improve the aroma around any team, no matter its personnel.

I would like to see that engraved upon the big tarnished 6 in front of Arco. And written across the sky...

Perfect summary of the situation, Brickie.

 

[Emma]

according to this http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Facts.asp nearly 3 billion people in the world live on less than 2 dollars a day. I'm sorry, if you are paid millions of dollars to play a game, you shut up and do whatever you're told and do it with a smile. While I love this team and this sport and the opportunities available to us in this country, it's still a game.

This is not a lifestyle or political issue either. So what if you choose to play a game for a living? This is an issue of self actualization. Even people who make 2$ a day have a certain amount of pride and strive to be the best at something (no matter how paltry or mundane), I'm sure. If you are not given the opportunity to succeed at the level which you would like to, you would be pretty huffy as well.

 

[fnordius]

In short,

If you don't like spoiled brats, you don't like NBA basketball!