Vivek wants to play 4 on 5 on D

Albatros

Albatros

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Or so says... yep, Zach Lowe. He also the predicts the Kings to very bad.

Good news, though: The Kings are going to be entertaining! Owner Vivek Ranadivé has pitched the idea to the team’s brain trust of playing 4-on-5 defense and leaving one player to cherry-pick, according to multiple sources familiar with the matter. The Kings aren’t actually going to do that, but their D-League might, and it shows Ranadivé is committed to pushing boundaries in his search for an offbeat brand of “position-less” ball.
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http://grantland.com/the-triangle/n...rs-oklahoma-city-thunder-cleveland-cavaliers/
 
Oh so it'd be a box-and-one without the benefits but with all the downsides? Hard to throw that deep outlet to the guy downcourt when you're always pulling the ball out of the net and inbounding.

I'm always on board with innovation and trying something new but if I were a NBA player I'd feel ridiculous standing under my own basket waiting for deep passes and uncontested layups. And I'd feel even worse when it didn't work and I spent the entire possession watching my team get beat 5 on 4.
 
In other words, the Sim Bhullar offense.

But these reports are worrisome in an accumulated sort of way. You wonder what's the explanation for our front office schizophrenia, and so much of the nonsense seems like it could stem from a neophyte owner who doesn't know the game and wants to fart around with positionless 4 on 5 NBA 3.0 nonsense. Makes you wonder if he will even have the patience to slog through years of 82 game slugfests slowly building a traditional power around Cuz or if his desperation to be an innovator will cause him to meddle and meddle and turn us into a freak show.
 
One of the 5 will have an open shot. I think perhaps this is a misunderstanding that is being reported to drum up hits on a website:)

Perhaps Vivek was just saying he wants a guy to leak out after the ball goes up and the rebounder or guy taking it out can look down court for the long pass for the easy hoop.
 
I'm absolutely not kidding when I say this was about Sim Bhullar BTW. And the hope would be that this was Vivek's random muse about how to make that happen, a quickly dismissed suggestion.

1) Vivek wants a 7'5" guy of Indian descent to make the team.

2) The coaches/PDA say well, he's got skills but the problem is he can't change ends.

3) Vivek brainstorms and says, what if we just played 4 on 5 on defense, and had Sim stay down on the offensive side of the ball cherrypicking? He's 7'5", he's got good hands, nobody could move him once he set up. You get a rebound you gun the ball fullcourt to him under the hoop for a lay in. A shot is made you take the ball out on the baseline and gun the ball fullcourt to Sim for a lay in. Even if you can't gun it full court he'll have automatic perfect post position every possession.

4) eyes roll

5) Sim released, presumably to be picked up in Reno, whose coach will soon receive a phone call from Vivek. "So I was thinking..."
 
I am sure it will be easy to get players to sign with a team when you tell them "there is a chance if it goes the way we want it to that you will never score a point. Instead all points will be accumulated by an unskilled tall guy of the same national origin as myself."


Guys this is starting to get scary. He is trying to reinvent the wheel here.
 
If the Kings fail this year, this article isn't going to help Vivek's reputation any. Fair or not, it feeds into the narrative that he's a meddler, an owner who likes to experiment with the new rather than go with the proven. I have the disquieting notion that Vivek has surrounded himself with people that tell him what he wants to hear rather than what he needs to hear. I think back on the hiring of PDA and how he was talking 2.0 this and 2.0 that, seeming to not even know what 2.0 was.
 
This is where a GM worth his salt explains to the owner how foolish this template is and this fascination with positionless, non-defensive basketball doesn't win in this league. This is where a GM worth his salt has already educated the owner on this, the owner is aware of the GM's plans and they're on the same page going forward, at least publicly.

When an owner is talking like this publicly, it's a decent assumption to make that our FO isn't that far off this train of thought. It's unlikely Vivek feels this way while our FO feels the opposite.

While Vivek argues he surrounds himself with guys more intelligent than himself, I'm leaning far more towards he's surrounded himself with "yes men" who won't stray from this positionless/non-defensive fantasy of his.

Kingster said:
I have the disquieting notion that Vivek has surrounded himself with people that tell him what he wants to hear rather than what he needs to hear. I think back on the hiring of PDA and how he was talking 2.0 this and 2.0 that, seeming to not even know what 2.0 was.
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As of now, PDA appears to be the ultimate "yes man". Malone's defensive mindset/philosophy also appears to have neutered.
 
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rainmaker said:
This is where a GM worth his salt explains to the owner how foolish this template is and this fascination with positionless, non-defensive basketball doesn't win in this league. This is where a GM worth his salt has already educated the owner on this, the owner is aware of the GM's plans and they're on the same page going forward, at least publicly.

When an owner is talking like this publicly, it's a decent assumption to make that our FO isn't that far off this train of thought. It's unlikely Vivek feels this way while our FO feels the opposite.

While Vivek argues he surrounds himself with guys more intelligent than himself, I'm leaning far more towards he's surrounded himself with "yes men" who won't stray from this positionless/non-defensive fantasy of his.


As of now, PDA appears to be the ultimate "yes man". Malone's defensive mindset/philosophy also appears to have neutered.
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On the contrary, I'm beginning to suspect a split in the front office.

The person picking up hard working scrappers like Reggie Evans, Ryan Hollins, Eric Moreland, Omri Casspi, Terrence Williams, and who may have wanted to go after Payton on draft day, is not the same person/persons looking for offensive minded positionless players. I just go back and forth on who is who as far as pulling which string. It is notable though that all of the above moves are the sort of lower level roster filling out maneuvers where a GM might be given free rein to make them himself, as opposed to the major rotation moves which the owner probably wants oversight over.

Obviously nobody wants to contradict the boss or his top advisors directly, but its entirely possible one or more parties has their own agenda and is trying to push it without directly confronting the other.
 
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You know, I don't mind too much when owners/GMs try to create a competitive advantage by tinkering around with players/positions/sizes. You want to try smallball? Fine. It's never won anything, but I'm sure you believe you can be the first to win by doing so, because you've "found the flaw" from others.

What Vivek is attempting to do here is play around with the fundamental rules of basketball. You don't win by doing that. You can't possibly win by playing 4 on 5. You put yourself at a competitive disadvantage every time down the court. Why do that? While it's not quite the same as adding a second basketball, it's a lot closer to that vein than smallballing is. The only way this could ever work is if you take the 4 best individual defenders in the NBA and then, well, yes, Sim Bhullar, and then give it a shot. We don't even have the 4 mediocrest defenders in the NBA.

It's safe to say that I don't get this. We're not a middle school team trying to junk our way into some wins. Some thoughts are better left unsaid.
 
Between this, our new dleague coach, the draft video and some of our moves I wonder how many people can still claim Vivek isn't over involved or that it won't cause problems.

I only hope its new owner excitement and that he backs off soon because I'm really starting to hate his involvement. Don't get me wrong, I'm thrilled to still have a team but I'd really rather they not continue to be a league joke.
 
Wasn't this the offense in One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest?

Now I'm confused, is it NBA 2.0 or 3.0?

Starting to feel like the maloof's never left.
 
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Chubbs said:
Wasn't this the offense in One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest?

Now I'm confused, is it NBA 2.0 or 3.0?

Starting to feel like the maloof's never left.
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At least wait until the game tomorrow to see them not do anything like this.... ever.
 
Bricklayer said:
On the contrary, I'm beginning to suspect a split in the front office.

The person picking up hard working scrappers like Reggie Evans, Ryan Hollins, Eric Moreland, Omri Casspi, Terrence Williams, and who may have wanted to go after Payton on draft day, is not the same person/persons looking for offensive minded positionless players. I just go back and forth on who is who as far as pulling which string. It is notable though that all of the above moves are the sort of lower level roster filling out maneuvers where a GM might be given free rein to make them himself, as opposed to the major rotation moves which the owner probably wants oversight over.

Obviously nobody wants to contradict the boss or his top advisors directly, but its entirely possible one or more parties has their own agenda and is trying to push it without directly confronting the other.
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i go back and forth, as well. it's all speculation, but i don't think pete d'allesandro is the culprit here. this is his first stint in the big job. PDA may be an inexperienced analytics type, but he's also got to be keenly aware of the repercussions of failure with the kings. nobody's knocking down doors to hire pete d'allesandro as a general manager if he blows it in sacramento. i've hardly been one to defend PDA since he got to town, but i genuinely believe he understands the need to marry the number crunching of the analytics movement with the intangibles represented by the "eye test," and i think the "hard working scrappers" you mentioned represent PDA's understanding of the importance of a well-rounded front office strategy. he may not have addressed some of the team's most glaring issues yet, but he seems to recognize that he has to do something to balance out the roster a bit, even if that only means shoring up the depth towards the end of the bench...

a guy like chris mullin, on the other hand, has very little risk to shoulder in his "advisory" capacity with the kings. he's a hall of famer who will continue to snag front office positions around the league on the strength of his name recognition alone. in my opinion, this makes him a dangerous commodity for a small market franchise attempting to rebuild around a budding superstar in demarcus cousins, occasionally volatile though cousins may be. mully gets to be the "yes man" in vivek's ear, while PDA actually has to do the dirty work of rebuilding this sad sack kings team into a winner before cousins decides he's had enough of the losing culture, and at the same time PDA also has to attempt to satisfy the bizarre "positionless basketball" philosophy of his inexperienced owner...

i certainly appreciate vivek's desire to innovate, and i do think he will one day be a stellar owner who cares and who isn't afraid to spend. but my fear is that the kings might have to lose demarcus cousins, and might have to lose for another half-decade, before vivek's taken enough lumps to learn something about what it takes to build a winning team in the nba. perhaps it's all much ado about nothing. perhaps it's just been that long of a dreaded offseason. perhaps the new regime has something up their sleeve. i'm not holding my breath, though. i will continue to hope the best for this season. 35+ wins would constitute an important development. would it be enough to convince DMC that this team's not just spinning it's wheels? i'm not so sure...
 
Don't know what you guys are missing. It's not 4 on 5. We just have a player that is 2 seconds ahead of the other team. This is exactly how Vivek built his fortune and it's obviously the path to an NBA title.
 
Anyone thought about how it could eventually be a 4v4 thing? Imagine if we had Stauskas at the 3pt line the entire stretch of their defense. When they miss, Cuz can throw one of his bullet passes to Nik and let him drain 3s all day. If the Kings were ever crazy enough to do this, I think it would eventually turn out to be 4v4. There would be a defender with Nik.

Let's all be honest, last season we were playing 4v5 anyways. It's not like we let every SG have career setting nights against us.
 
Padrino said:
i go back and forth, as well. it's all speculation, but i don't think pete d'allesandro is the culprit here. this is his first stint in the big job. PDA may be an inexperienced analytics type, but he's also got to be keenly aware of the repercussions of failure with the kings. nobody's knocking down doors to hire pete d'allesandro as a general manager if he blows it in sacramento. i've hardly been one to defend PDA since he got to town, but i genuinely believe he understands the need to marry the number crunching of the analytics movement with the intangibles represented by the "eye test," and i think the "hard working scrappers" you mentioned represent PDA's understanding of the importance of a well-rounded front office strategy. he may not have addressed some of the team's most glaring issues yet, but he seems to recognize that he has to do something to balance out the roster a bit, even if that only means shoring up the depth towards the end of the bench...

a guy like chris mullin, on the other hand, has very little risk to shoulder in his "advisory" capacity with the kings. he's a hall of famer who will continue to snag front office positions around the league on the strength of his name recognition alone. in my opinion, this makes him a dangerous commodity for a small market franchise attempting to rebuild around a budding superstar in demarcus cousins, occasionally volatile though cousins may be. mully gets to be the "yes man" in vivek's ear, while PDA actually has to do the dirty work of rebuilding this sad sack kings team into a winner before cousins decides he's had enough of the losing culture, and at the same time PDA also has to attempt to satisfy the bizarre "positionless basketball" philosophy of his inexperienced owner...

i certainly appreciate vivek's desire to innovate, and i do think he will one day be a stellar owner who cares and who isn't afraid to spend. but my fear is that the kings might have to lose demarcus cousins, and might have to lose for another half-decade, before vivek's taken enough lumps to learn something about what it takes to build a winning team in the nba. perhaps it's all much ado about nothing. perhaps it's just been that long of a dreaded offseason. perhaps the new regime has something up their sleeve. i'm not holding my breath, though. i will continue to hope the best for this season. 35+ wins would constitute an important development. would it be enough to convince DMC that this team's not just spinning it's wheels? i'm not so sure...
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Yes, I've always been wary of the Mullin factor. Between Vivek interjecting in basketball decisions, Mullin in his ear and PDA appearing to have different philosophies, it explains inconsistent roster moves. It is all speculation, but many of us are seeing the same thing.

I feel bad for PDA in a way because he's in a no win situation. He shoulders all the roster responsibility, but due to being a new GM, has no clout.
 
Bricklayer said:
In other words, the Sim Bhullar offense.

But these reports are worrisome in an accumulated sort of way. You wonder what's the explanation for our front office schizophrenia, and so much of the nonsense seems like it could stem from a neophyte owner who doesn't know the game and wants to fart around with positionless 4 on 5 NBA 3.0 nonsense. Makes you wonder if he will even have the patience to slog through years of 82 game slugfests slowly building a traditional power around Cuz or if his desperation to be an innovator will cause him to meddle and meddle and turn us into a freak show.
Click to expand...

Would not an innovative freak show be a step up for us fans? Maybe better, more fun than a steady improvement around a fabulous big man? 4 on 5, positionlees,small ball, "star" big man basketball all depend for their success on how well and when it is used. Bring it all on and win some games and entertain us fans.
 
Ok this is how I envision it going down.

On a made basket, especially a free throw you run a full court press. Let's say that eats on average 8-9 seconds up until they are setup and running their offense.

You've got 15-16 on the clock.

The target for the cherry pick is likely an under performing outside threat, so your guard or maybe SF cherry picks with about 4 seconds on the clock.

Well if they are gonna shoot poorly from the outside, not be able to enter the key from penetration because of that guy too, and you can beat them athletically 1 on 1 with the cherry pick.
 
I keep seeing Vivek's full court press being referenced with his daughters Rec league. I get why it's making it's way into stories. I find it hilarious, but for a whole different reason. If you have played any ounce of rec basketball you know that Vivek and his team were hated. Like a deep passionate, irrational, hoping something bad happens on the drive home hatred. If they did institute this, regardless of it working or not, they would be hated by everyone. Visceral hatred.
 
I don't like Vivek pitching ANYTHING basketball related. Already made a joke of by Simmons with that backroom footage at the draft and him pushing for Stauskas. I like Stauskas and am happy he's here so don't get me wrong on that. I just think he's a new owner and he's trying to shake things up which is fine, but stay out of the basketball related decisions. That's why you hire professionals. You can be an owner that's into the team and opens up the pocket-book if needed, but you don't need to be telling people how we should be playing defense.
 
Vivek the tech guy opening his mouth about basketball and throwing out ideas as if he has been around the game more than a few years...please.
 
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