I don't think they'd get much value for Benn although I think he could probably use a change of scenery. Maybe a coaching change is the answer. Though Tyrese should take some time off to get 100% because he is not helping the team right now.
Tyrese Watch
- Thread starter Tetsujin
- Start date
macadocious
Starter
So many of these "All-Star" players just underperform for long stretches and are difficult fits around other star players. Lauri Markkenen was the hottest guy on the proverbial trade market this summer. He was going to get young players and all the draft picks like he was prime Kobe or something. Now, he is back to an above-average player, no longer an AS.
Siakim wasn't that guy
Lauri wasn't that guy
Derozen isn't that guy
Most teams aren't getting that guy unless they draft and develop them. Period.
Siakim wasn't that guy
Lauri wasn't that guy
Derozen isn't that guy
Most teams aren't getting that guy unless they draft and develop them. Period.
Demar is 35 and playing better than both of those guys. I'm more than happy with what we're getting out of him.
Were you expecting him to average more than 22.5ppg?
We're paying DDR as basically a 5.5 WS/year player, and he's on pace for about 8 this year. He is fully meeting my expectations. The team? Ask again later. (A big step up from where I was before two straight 141-point blowouts.)
macadocious
Starter
No, he's been great. That wasn't my point. Once you get past the top 13-15 guys in the NBA, there aren't long-term difference-makers. They can have periods of time where they look like world-beaters, but in general, they are playing a role (albeit an internal one) on the team they are on.
Lebron (not now)
Luka
Jokic
Giannis
Tatum
Steph
KD
Embiid (if healthy)
Ant
Shai (maybe...)
That's like the list of true difference-makers, and even then, half of those guys have some flaws.
Ah I gotcha. I'd add a healthy Kawhi to that list as well. The Raptors had a handful of playoff appearances with DeRozan but really took off after the Kawhi trade. DeRozan is a really good player and I'm sure will have a spot in the HoF but he's never been the type of guy that can put a team on his back for a season and make a deep playoff run.
Lauri has been a head scratcher this year. I'm not really sure why he's struggling so badly. Keegan locked him up with ease last night.
Tyrese also continues to be a terrible defender. The Pacers are currently 19th in offensive rating and 24th in defensive rating. When your POA defender is a matador, you'd better (a) have some defensive roleplayers getting major minutes who pick up the slack and/or (b) have a high powered offense to make up the difference, a la the Harden-era Rockets. Right now the Pacers are neither.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
We've been seeing this sort of thing for awhile now. A team that really wasn't for real and was riding a hot wave of momentum make it really far and then flatten out. Hali is a good player, not a franchise one. Big numbers, but the impact is up and down. Also, the other issue is this is what happens to teams that are basically all offense. They were literally a team that took the Kings offensive rating record away at one point and were pretty much right in those offensive vs. defensive ratings areas the Kings were to a T. All offense + no defense = short runs to the top if you do get there.
One of those reasons I think a coaching change might be needed. Carlisle may have come in with a tough nosed rep but the lack of defense the Pacers play is contagious.
There may be something to that. Mathurin has never been good defensively just like Haliburton, but Siakam has also declined on that end. To be fair that started slipping a bit even in Toronto, but when I watch the Pacers now he seems like he's really not engaged on that end of the floor like he used to be.
Benn has never played great defense but he was projected as someone with the physical tools to be competent on that end and he's only seemed to regress outside of rebounding. I don't have any answers but I feel like once they shipped Buddy out they should have at least marginally improved defensively.
I never expected my somewhat rationalist take of "wait until he's on his second contract" to play out quite how it has so far. Obviously, just like Fox at this stage of his career (he was on year one of his extension when we made the trade), there's time to fix that perception and I hope he does.
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
you forgot Ja on your list
Pretty sure he didn't forget him.
macadocious
Starter
I omitted Ja, Zion, Kawahi because they are either hurt too much or have other stuff going on.
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
so you don't think he's a difference maker for the Grizz?
I think he is a good player for the Grizz and certainly is a "difference maker" for them, in that I don't think they are very good if Ja is out. He makes the difference between them being mediocre/bad and good, and potentially very good. But I also don't think he is an elite difference maker that takes a very good team to great or elite. The original post listed about 10 guys who are elite difference makers that can make a very good team great. I don't think Ja is that. I also don't think that Domas or Fox are that on their own either. I think they belong in a tier below the greatest difference makers, and that you need a couple of those guys to be very good if you don't have one of the elite ones.
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
He ain’t even as good as Fox
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
I would put them in the same tier
Tetsujin
The Game Thread Dude
Fox plays defense and has developed his shot. Ja might be a bit more explosive but he still shoots like he lost all feeling in his hands and is a limited defender
I wouldn't. I think Fox has advantages over Ja in terms of shooting and defense. But even if I concede the point and agree that Fox and Ja are the same tier, that is still a tier below the true difference makers. This debate began with the assertion that Ja was missing from the list another poster made about true difference makers. I wouldn't consider Ja OR Fox at the level of the people on that list - Giannis, Jokic, Tatum, Ant, Shai, KD, Luka etc... Fox and Ja are great players who can make bad teams good or good teams very good, but the jury is still out on whether either is the difference maker that can make a very good team elite.
I think adding Anthony Edwards into the elite tier is still pre-mature. He had a great year last year but his team seriously underperformed before that and so far this season they're 12-11 and don't appear to be ascending to the top of the Western Conference as predicted. He's in the same tier as Fox and Morant, imo. Individually they're all elite scorers but there are still question marks about their leadership qualities.
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
I need to see Fox deliver for an entire season and not whenever he feels like it, or whenever someone angers him. Until then, I don't think if you put Fox on the Grizz that he has the same impact for that team that Ja would
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
difference makers for their team, which is why I added Ja. Fox from a talent perspective with Ja is in the same tier, impact wise though? well I need to see more of how this season plays out and where Fox is from a consistency delivery stance.
chief bromden
Starter
He hardly took any shots. Something up with him? Trade?
NewArena
All-Star
This has been him since his rookie season in terms of baffling swings from aggression to complete disappearance. We’ve had similar players but he’s even more extreme.
coolhandluke
Starter
His name is Toumani Camara, who gave even Fox a bit of trouble. Tyrese is very risk averse when it comes to shooting.
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