Tyreke is Lebron of PGs
- Thread starter KingsCitizen
- Start date
He might not be a good playmaker, but hes still a pure point imo, he just might not be a top level pure point. He looks to pass first thing and only shoots when he absolutely has to, he doesnt have the skills or the size to play SG or any other position. So he only plays purely point guard, even if hes not good at it hes a pure point.
Larry89
Disgruntled Kings Fan
Yes, definitely an abomination of significant importance in the history of western civilization
Vlade4GM
All-Star
There's this misconception about Fisher that he actually has good shot selection, it's not true. He very often chucks up 3's when he shouldn't, especially in transition. I wouldn't call him selfish, but he's not as unselfish with the ball as everyone thinks. He's a SG in a PG's body, he always has been.
Your definition of "pure pg" is not the common usage, so that's partly why people reacted to your statement like that.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
I'm sure you know this, but thats why its called the triangle offense. A true point guard isn't a prerequisite in the triangle. What is though, is having experienced multitalented players on the floor that can shoot, pass and handle the ball fairly well. One of the reasons that Bynum never quite fit in that system. They just work around him...
bajaden
Hall of Famer
This team went 66 and 16. Care to point out who else on this team that would even closely resemble a star player.
LeBron James
Maurice Williams
Illgauskas
Delonte West
Varejao
Gibson
Szczerbiak
Joe Smith
Pavlovic
JJ Hickson
Ben Wallace
Jawad Williams
Tarence Kinsey
Trey Johnson
You tell me whom on that team you want James to defer to. Especially at crunch time. You tell me, that if I take Lebron off Cleveland and Kobe off the Lakers and let them play, who you would put your money on. I can't believe that some of you are actually blaming James for his success. How many other players could you put in James place on that team and win 66 games? The Kings should be so lucky as to have a player like James. I didn't see anyone in Cleveland applaud when James left. Feeling blessed to be rid of the ball hog.
DeMoN
Bench
I completely agree.. The Lebron hate nowadays is clouding people of how good he actually is. I would LOVE Tyreke to get anywhere near the impact Lebron has. And i fail to see how Lebron is a team killing ballhog when he may go down as the best passing SF to ever play the game.
Wait. Are people debating on Lebron's offense being trash or that the Cavs offense was trash? Certain parts of Lebrons game are an insult to basketball(barreling into people like a linebacker), but he had good vision and passing. The Cavs offensive system though? That was a complete joke and one of the reasons they never won a title. Their offense already looks better with less talent now that Scott is in calling plays.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
Your points aren't really relevant to my argument. My point was that LeBron's game does, to an extent, dictate that they play the way they did. My main argument is that the way the Cavs played offensively, does not work in the playoffs, and LeBron is partially to blame for that IMO. I'm not saying he isn't a great player, or that he wasn't relied upon by his team more than any other individual in the league, but I don't think that's relevant to what we're discussing. Of course the Cavs relied on him greatly, but that was the problem. LeBron's game doesn't really give room for other players to flourish much outside of shooting spot up jumpers, and so they set the team up in a similar mold to a Larry Brown-Iverson team, I.E. focus on defense, give the ball to your superstar, and surround him with shooters. Sure, the FO was mostly to blame for their lack of a second star player, but I'm saying them and LeBron worked as a team to get the result they got. Could it have been different if they had gotten him a real coach from the beginning that taught him how to play in a real system, instead of just giving him the ball and telling him to go pad his stats? Maybe, but I don't think he minded at all.
LeBron is about as good of a star player you're going to get with that type of system, and they still failed. Doing the same thing with Evans would be doomed to failure as well.
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KingsCitizen
Starter
If implementing a Lebron system will get us back to the playoffs every year then that'll be totally awesome for me. Lebron never had a good chance to have a solid star playing with him a lot of times. But Tyreke got Cousins and a bunch of potential on this team. While this team continues to learn how to put those potential talents in action, I wouldn't mind letting all offense be Tyreke or start with Tyreke. Eventually, someone in this roster might realize the need to complement Tyreke better. Probably like how Pippen started believing in himself and gave MJ that solid support player that give the bulls 6 rings. Just sayi'n.
There is nothing even remotely related between the system that Jordan and Pippen played in and the LeBron system.
Cavs system was doomed to fail. They built their team around what Lebron wanted to do and how he played.
The Nuggets are a far better team because they utilized Carmelo by allowing him to do what he does best while improving other positions in their roster.
We need stop using Tyreke like how the Cavs used Lebron. Instead, build a team around Tyreke at the 2, Cousins at the 4, and Dalembert at the 5. Get a point guard or two who can distribute the ball and facilitate the offense. We can only get better as we get more experience playing in a real team offense. Beef up the positions that need improvement.
The Nuggets are a far better team because they utilized Carmelo by allowing him to do what he does best while improving other positions in their roster.
We need stop using Tyreke like how the Cavs used Lebron. Instead, build a team around Tyreke at the 2, Cousins at the 4, and Dalembert at the 5. Get a point guard or two who can distribute the ball and facilitate the offense. We can only get better as we get more experience playing in a real team offense. Beef up the positions that need improvement.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Er, at no point in LeBron's time with the Cavs was Denver a better team.
bajaden
Hall of Famer
So your saying that because he didn't win a championship he's a failure. And therefore Barkley was a failure. Stockton was a failure. Malone was a failure. Its not your description of LeBron's game that I take umbarage with. Its the word failure attached to his name. Yes I agree that LeBron played a certain way. But I think he played that way because he really didn't have a choice because of the personnel that he was surrounded with. We'll get a chance to find out now that he has better players to defer to.
Vlade4GM
All-Star
I said the Cavs and their system failed, so yes, that means he failed too, but that's different than calling him a failure, because that would imply that he has failed in more than one sense.
They had the best record in the NBA two years running and they failed to come out of the Eastern Conference both years.
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KingsCitizen
Starter
FYI, Jordan(1984) was in the NBA a few years before Pippen(1987) did. Jordan made it to the all-star before Pippen even joined. Bulls made the playoffs (though the record is damn dismal, but its the East), with just Jordan. They got better once Pippen and a few more came in and contributed.
My point is, if you have a star that's just so dominant if he really want to, then let him dominate. For young superstars, you need them to be confident in themselves and not let their skills die by forcing a system that will eventually degrade them. I don't mind mentioning MJ and Lebron next to Tyreke coz Reke belong to the club of 20-5-5 rookies. And that's has to say something about what we have here.
OK, let's get our head out of the Kings' marketing department's behind for a minute - Tyreke is a very good player. He will certainly be an allstar one day, but the chances of him ever being as good as Jordan or even LeBron are about the same as Paris Hilton discovering the cure for cancer. The 20-5-5 is a marketing stat. It doesn't really mean that Tyreke is one of the four best rookies of all times. First of all, if you alter the numbers to 19-5-5, suddenly that club is not that exclusive. That, combined with the fact that the Kings spent about half a season padding Tyreke's stats to get those numbers, should put things in perspective.
Tim Duncan averaged 21.1-11.9-2.7 in his rookie season. Does the fact that he didn't get 20-5-5 make his rookie season inferior to Tyreke's? Of course not - it's actually much more impressive despite not belonging to the 20-5-5 club. Pau Gasol averaged 17.6-8.9-2.7. Shaq 23.4-13.9-1.9. Webber 17.5-9.1-3.6. Iverson 23.5-4.1-7.5.
The list goes on and on - all of these players had better rookie seasons than Tyreke. The fact that they didn't reach that random stat says absolutely nothing. Even this season, both John Wall and Blake Griffin look better than Tyreke did last year.
Top tier teams in this league are always going to have at least one player who is just as good as Tyreke or better. Those teams will most likely also have a respectable offensive system, and you think we can contend with the LeBron system with Tyreke playing the part of Lebron?
Not wanting Evans to be the "Lebron of PGs" is just so stupid. Teams would always want that kind of talent. It will win championship or at the least bring you to the NBA Finals like how Lebron did with the Cavs.
It will always be so stupid not to pursue higher dreams when dreaming is for free. Evans has the ability and why not try when we don't have that much option anyways?
It will always be so stupid not to pursue higher dreams when dreaming is for free. Evans has the ability and why not try when we don't have that much option anyways?
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Did someone suggest getting rid of Tyreke or not letting him play to his strength? Was it stupid of Phil Jackson to give MJ and Kobe offensive schemes to work with? Was it stupid of Popovich to not tell Duncan to just do his thing and hope for the best?
Tyreke's talent is not in his ability to make plays, get his teammates involved, or running an offense.
His talent is in breaking down the defense and scoring. With his improving jumpshot hes becoming a bigger offensive threat.
Do you think we should have Tyreke, with as much talent as he does, run plays, making passes, and setting up his teammates. Or would it be better for our team, and for himself, to let him do what he does best and develop in that direction?
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Vlade4GM
All-Star
We should be building for a championship team and nothing else. If our best player can't play within an offensive system, then we are going nowhere. Both Kobe and Jordan failed in the playoffs until they ran into Phil Jackson, who turned them into team players, and that's when the success happened.
Exactly. The real issue is that there's only one basketball. If Tyreke is passing off to a teammate and then cutting and spotting up (ie running the offense) than his talents are being wasted. Similarly if someone else is passing off to a teammate and Tyreke is cutting and spotting up than his talents are being wasted. He needs the ball to be effective.
I promised myself I wouldn't bring up this name ever again, but I'm going to do it anyway. A lot of the reason people were upset we went with Tyreke over Rubio was that Rubio was billed as a pure playmaker while Tyreke is a ball dominant scorer. Pure playmakers always come with the potential to make average teammates appear better than they are. Plus ball movement is exciting, if not always effective. Now that we've seen how effective Tyreke can be, you could look around the league and see that most of the elite teams are led by a ball dominant scorer and you could then make the decision that you're happy we have one on our team. Our you could continue to bemoan the lack of pretty basketball. As long as we're losing anyway, there's reason to think pretty basketball would be an improvement right?
I don't see a lot of people around here lately arguing for Rubio over Tyreke, and that's not why I brought it up. I do see a lot of confusion over what the best way to use Tyreke's skills would be and it seems to me, perhaps I'm wrong, that there's a bias in favor of passing playmakers instead of scoring playmakers at PG. Let's say we do get that mythical perfect playmaker to team up with Tyreke. Who knows maybe Kahn would trade him for Carl Landry and a second round pick. What happens when Tyreke has the ball? Rubio is not a shooter. He would be wasted. And when Rubio has the ball, Tyreke would be wasted. Two playmakers seems like a great idea in theory, but only if they have off-the-ball skills which compliment each other.
We know that Tyreke is an effective scorer with the ball in his hands. He was as a 19 year old, and he's going to continue to get better. We know that he's a match up nightmare for any PG in the league. I think the conclusions we can draw from this are pretty obvious, but I'll leave it open to interpretation.
Yes, his talent is in the breaking down the defense and scoring. But along the way to greatness he will also need the ability to make plays, get his teammates involved, or run an offense. Jordan and Kobe went in that direction too which actually made their respective teams great. Therefore, there is no reason why Evans should stop from going in that direction too.
This is puzzling - saying the Nuggets are a better team than the Cavs when it was the Cavs who went as far as game six of the NBA Finals.
Can you also check the record of the match-up between the Cavaliers and Nuggets since Lebron and Carmelo played in the NBA please? Maybe the result might actually support what you are saying.
This is puzzling - saying the Nuggets are a better team than the Cavs when it was the Cavs who went as far as game six of the NBA Finals.
Can you also check the record of the match-up between the Cavaliers and Nuggets since Lebron and Carmelo played in the NBA please? Maybe the result might actually support what you are saying.
When did the cavs reach game 6 of the NBA finals?
Section 101
All-Star
Not a game 6 but swept by the Spurs.
Nobody is saying he should stop. Are you saying if Tyreke plays 2 guard, then hes going to become a black hole in the offense? Nobody is saying that. What im saying is, let him play in the 2 position, and the passing / playing with his teammates will naturally develop.
Like the others mentioned, the Cavs never went to game six of the finals, they were however swept 4-0 by the Spurs in their only visit in the finals. I dont know what their record is. I base my opinion on what i see, and the Nuggets had an offensive system that incorporated the entire team and allowed them to play off of each other, which means room for improvement and development. That was not what i saw with the Cavs. There are alot of intangibles that simple records or stats wont show.
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