Trade proposal for KG, and why

[Catalyst]

http://www2.realgm.com/src_checktrade.php?tradeid=3445195

Sacramento outgoing

Kevin Martin

Vitaly Potapenko


Kenny Thomas or Corliss Williamson

Brad Miller


Minnesota outgoing

Kevin Garnett


Why Sacramento does this deal: Although this doesn't make rebounding and shotblocking complete non-factors, it reduces their need drastically. KG is one of the best defensive big men in the league, and coupled with Artest, this would help to completely remake Sacramento's defensive image. Sacramento goes from being a playoff hopeful to being title contenders -- in one move.

Why Minnesota does this deal: Kevin Martin, mainly. Martin is proving he's an All-Star level player, and he's 23-years-old. This fits a Timberwolves team that will have to rebuild if they trade KG. Potapenko is an expiring contract and Brad Miller is a solid/good 7-footer to put on the court. Eating Kenny Thomas' contract might not be an option here, as the TWolves may wish to have Corliss Williamson instead -- so they'd have another expiring deal. If Corliss and Potapenko are traded, then the Timberwolves would clear 10 million dollars at the end of the season. Expiring contracts are very attractive to rebuilding teams.


The Kings give up a star with a lot of potential, and some expiring contacts that will get them out of the luxury tax bracket.

The Wolves give up their franchise player and go into rebuilding mode.

Both teams stand to gain/lose a lot, but this deal potentially fills both team's needs.

 

[Merdiesel]

Kevin Martin is the future of the Sacramento Kings.

He is not going anywhere...

 

[Starting Five]

No..I don't do that deal. K-Mart is going to be a King for a long time.

 

[PFFFT!!]

Kmart and Artest are put for a long time. Everyone else can be traded for that matter.

 

[nbrans]

It's a tough call. On the one hand, it's a no-brainer. You get Kevin Garnett, who is still a superstar, and he'd have the best supporting cast of his career. Bibby/Salmons/Artest/Garnett/SAR is a killer lineup.

On the other hand, if Garnett doesn't have much left in the tank or if that lineup isn't good enough to win a championship you've just given up the future of your franchise, and by the time you've figured out that it didn't work Garnett will no longer be tradeable. If it doesn't work in a big way it would be a swift, painful slide into oblivion and lottery land.

I would feel more comfortable making the decision if I had some feeling of how much Kevin is going to improve. Are we seeing his peak or is he going to continue to get better? Is his cieling Rip Hamilton? Reggie Miller? McGrady?

My sense is that Kevin is going to get better, and it's tempting to hold onto the potential superstar you have rather than gamble on the declining (albeit slowly) superstar you don't have. If he keeps improving Kevin could be that type of get-his-points-at-any-time type of superstar player in the Wade/Kobe/Jordan mode that you can build a championship team around. On the other hand, KG is the type of player that you can build a Duncan/Hakeem type of championship team around.

So I don't know. Flip a coin.

 

[VF21]

It's a tough call. On the one hand, it's a no-brainer. You get Kevin Garnett, who is still a superstar, and he'd have the best supporting cast of his career. Bibby/Salmons/Artest/Garnett/SAR is a killer lineup.

On the other hand, if Garnett doesn't have much left in the tank or if that lineup isn't good enough to win a championship you've just given up the future of your franchise, and by the time you've figured out that it didn't work Garnett will no longer be tradeable. If it doesn't work in a big way it would be a swift, painful slide into oblivion and lottery land.

Yep. And that's the fatal flaw in the proposal, IMHO.

And as much as I've lobbied to get Garnett over the past couple of years, I think the window of opportunity is rapidly starting to close. Martin has revitalized the team AND the fans. You don't trade that away without doing some real soul-searching. If that trade didn't work - or if Garnett came here and, for whatever reason, didn't put up Garnett-type numbers - you have just ripped the heart out of your franchise and are in worse shape than you've been since you traded away another big PF for more flexibility. But this time, there wouldn't be someone else in the wings to take the huge contract off your hands.

 

[Catalyst]

My feeling is win now, rebuild if you have to.

You could wait several years, see how KMart works out and hopefully you have the right pieces around him to round out the team and maybe build a team that competes for a championship.

Or, you could trade for a guy that will more than likely make you compete for one now.

Of course, there's no guarantee KG makes the Kings a championship contending team, but judging by his past performances and the roster we already have, a championship contending team is a reasonable assumption.

Kevin Martin's impact on a team, in my mind, can never be as high as a player like KG's can.

KG's an outstanding package. His defensive ability alone can anchor the entire team, and make a squad that's just solid at stopping people -- be very good at it.

Martin will spread the floor and make things easier for other guys, but I don't think he will ever have the kind of impact on his team that Garnett does.

 

[VF21]

All this is pure speculation, of course. First you would have to convince Minnesota to take our offer and I'm pretty sure Kevin McHale would have to hang up to keep from laughing in Petrie's ear. Potapenko, Thomas or Corliss, Brad Miller and Kevin for Garnett? No matter how good Martin is looking to us, he is not a core player for a trade like this.

If Garnett does leave Minnesota, IMHO, it's going to be via free agency and a contract that will make Webber's look like pocket change.

 

[Catalyst]

All this is pure speculation, of course. First you would have to convince Minnesota to take our offer and I'm pretty sure Kevin McHale would have to hang up to keep from laughing in Petrie's ear. Potapenko, Thomas or Corliss, Brad Miller and Kevin for Garnett? No matter how good Martin is looking to us, he is not a core player for a trade like this.

If Garnett does leave Minnesota, IMHO, it's going to be via free agency and a contract that will make Webber's look like pocket change.

In my opinion, Kevin Martin has shown what he's worth, and the key is, he's 23-years-old.

Expiring contracts for a team that's hoping to rebuild usually work out in their favor, AND they get a solid-to-good center out of the deal.

10 million in cap relief, a starting center that's worth a poo, and a budding young star.

Is it equal to Kevin Garnett's value? Nope, but, as some of you mentioned, Kevin is 30-years-old now. And maybe they're thinking Minnesota's window for a championship with him might have very well passed.

This would be a chance for the TWolves to rebuild, maybe rather quickly with cap relief and a young star.

 

[baiarri]

KG? again? always? I think that those four players are worth more than KG.
We have one brainless man at home (artest). why do we need a couple of brainless players?

 

[VF21]

In my opinion, Kevin Martin has shown what he's worth, and the key is, he's 23-years-old.

Expiring contracts for a team that's hoping to rebuild usually work out in their favor, AND they get a solid-to-good center out of the deal.

10 million in cap relief, a starting center that's worth a poo, and a budding young star.

Is it equal to Kevin Garnett's value? Nope, but, as some of you mentioned, Kevin is 30-years-old now. And maybe they're thinking Minnesota's window for a championship with him might have very well passed.

This would be a chance for the TWolves to rebuild, maybe rather quickly with cap relief and a young star.

You're working back from your objective - which is to find a way to justify Minnesota trading Kevin Garnett for one player with a lot of interest right now, potential, and hopefully a bright future, and a bunch of expiring contracts. That's understandable, from a Kings fan point of view perhaps.

BUT I simply cannot see how Minnesota would view it the same way. I'm pretty sure they could trade Garnett to teams with lottery draft picks, even if it meant doing some fancy footwork to get Garnett on a team he would actually agree to go to.

Sorry, but the package you're proposing doesn't look good to anyone who isn't wearing purple-tinted glasses.

 

[DocHolliday]

I wouldn't trade Kevin Martin for Kobe Bryant right now. For one reason and one reason alone. Age. Kevin is younger, and is showing promise of a player like a Kobe/Ray Allen/ etc.

 

[Catalyst]

Sorry, but the package you're proposing doesn't look good to anyone who isn't wearing purple-tinted glasses.

I beg to differ.

Check the top lotto picks from this year's draft and tell me which one of them is/will be better than Kevin Martin.

I'll save you some time, there isn't one.

Granted, the 2006 draft was not a very good draft, but that's also the chance you take with trading for a lotto pick. Getting the 4th or 5th spot when all of the top players might be gone.

On the other hand, Sacramento has a legitimate star on their hands, at least in my opinion, and can make a reasonable offer for KG.

Also, where are you getting this information that the Timberwolves would have no interest in this deal? I'm assuming this is your opinion here, or did you just call Kevin McHale?

If it's your opinion that the TWolves would have no interest in a KG deal with the Kings, cool, but if it's not your opinion you're working with here, what are you basing this all on?

People said Shaq was untradable. Wouldn't be moved, couldn't be moved. In the end, what did the Lakers get for him? Lamar Odom, Brian Grant and Caron Butler.

And KG ain't no Shaq.

 

[KiNgSbOi101]

I'd Rather Not

 

[Troy]

Kevin Martin is the future of the Sacramento Kings.

He is not going anywhere...

I agree, while we are getting rid of K9's big contract, we are giving up a lot in KMart, the kid has amazing potential and is setting this league on fire. Also Miller is a top Center in the league.

That pic doesn't look anything like Vitaly, when was it taken?

Kmart and Artest are pretty much untouchable, or should be. Bibby and Miller could go, but not both together. I'm all for getting a young dynamic PG if Bibby is moved, same with Miller if we can get a nice young stud, of course a Dwight Howard, but even a Sam D from 6ers.

This probably will be what it takes to KG or at least get the Wolves attention unfortunately. We sure would be a team to be reconded with with Artest and KG on the same team, also if we trade Bibby instead of Miller and get a young aggresive PG like Darin Williams, Chris Paul, Heinrich, etc I'd be loving it. Bibby is good, so it would be hard, but a young gun who is very unselfish like the ones mentioned would be nice too. Bibby is a top PG, but he is very much a shoot 1st, pass 2nd type PG because he is a very good shooter and doesn't pass up shots as well he shouldn't if he has a good look, but this stagnates the offense as well when the ball doesn't move and players like Artest and others try to play too much 1 on 1 B ball.


While I like KG and he is truely one of the best in the game with his size and athletism he is starting on his downward trend soon so giving up a lot for him is not what it used to be. I'd rather give up a little less and get a Dwight Howard, Chris Bosh, etc who is young and dynamic and a franchise player to build around.

 

[VF21]

I beg to differ.

Check the top lotto picks from this year's draft and tell me which one of them is/will be better than Kevin Martin.

I'll save you some time, there isn't one.

Granted, the 2006 draft was not a very good draft, but that's also the chance you take with trading for a lotto pick. Getting the 4th or 5th spot when all of the top players might be gone.

On the other hand, Sacramento has a legitimate star on their hands, at least in my opinion, and can make a reasonable offer for KG.

Also, where are you getting this information that the Timberwolves would have no interest in this deal? I'm assuming this is your opinion here, or did you just call Kevin McHale?

If it's your opinion that the TWolves would have no interest in a KG deal with the Kings, cool, but if it's not your opinion you're working with here, what are you basing this all on?

People said Shaq was untradable. Wouldn't be moved, couldn't be moved. In the end, what did the Lakers get for him? Lamar Odom, Brian Grant and Caron Butler.

And KG ain't no Shaq.

What am I basing it on? My opinion just as you are.

The Lakers got rid of Shaq for a variety of reasons. Who they actually got for him didn't really matter. At least they got something. And they had to trade him.

You think Minnesota would jump all over this because you thought of it. Perfectly natural. I, on the other hand, don't think the TWolves do it. I was simply responding to your post. I didn't realize I had to agree with you in order to comment.

It's all hypothetical anyway.

Granted, the 2006 draft was not a very good draft, but that's also the chance you take with trading for a lotto pick. Getting the 4th or 5th spot when all of the top players might be gone.

One more thing? We're not talking about the 2006 draft. We might be talking about the 2007 and even the 2008 draft. And we're still gonna be talking about more established players than Kevin Martin. I love Martin. I've got a front-row seat on his bandwagon. But I am hard-pressed to see Kevin McHale giving up one Kevin for a youngster with potential and a bunch of spare parts/expiring contracts.

And, on the other side, I'm not sure any longer that Garnett would solve all our problems. He is starting to fade. I honestly don't think bringing him in would necessarily give the Maloofs a championship and while they've gambled - so far pretty successfully - with Artest, I don't think they'd be quite so quick to pull the trigger on a trade that would get rid of the possible future of the franchise.

And yes, those are personal opinions.

 

[Catalyst]

You think Minnesota would jump all over this because you thought of it.

What? Why are you accusing me of this?

I never said Minnesota would "jump all over this," nor did I say they would even accept it.

This was a proposal, please see the title of this thread.

Here's the Meriam-Webster definition of a proposal. "An act of putting forward or stating something for consideration."

Maybe I'm reading this wrong over the Internet, but I don't particularly understand the way you're trying to talk with me. You seem a bit harsh.

Did I do something wrong?

 

[VF21]

What? Why are you accusing me of this?

I never said Minnesota would "jump all over this," nor did I say they would even accept it.

This was a proposal, please see the title of this thread.

Here's the Meriam-Webster definition of a proposal. "An act of putting forward or stating something for consideration."

Maybe I'm reading this wrong over the Internet, but I don't particularly understand the way you're trying to talk with me. You seem a bit harsh.

Did I do something wrong?

I'm not accusing you of anything. You may have read way too much into my comments. All I meant was that since you posted the trade scenario you might be defending it.

Dude, it's a trade proposal which I generally hate anyway. I probably shouldn't have even ventured into it.

Peace.

 

[Catalyst]

I'm not accusing you of anything. You may have read way too much into my comments. All I meant was that since you posted the trade scenario you might be defending it.

Dude, it's a trade proposal which I generally hate anyway. I probably shouldn't have even ventured into it.

Peace.

Oh, I was defending it, but not to the degree which you stated.

I think it's a reasonable trade offer for the TWolves, but I don't think that means they'll take it. Reasonable doesn't mean good, or much less, fantastic -- it is what it is.

Anyway, since you hate trade discussions, I'll just leave it be.

 

[Catalyst]

I wouldn't trade Kevin Martin for Kobe Bryant right now. For one reason and one reason alone. Age. Kevin is younger, and is showing promise of a player like a Kobe/Ray Allen/ etc.

I'd say Kevin is having more of a showing like Ray Allen than Kobe.

Ray has proven he's a gifted guy capable of a lot, but he can't carry a team on his own -- at least he hasn't been able to prove this thus far.

Kobe is arguably the best player in the league, and is basically carrying the Laker team.

I think Kevin Martin is going to end up being pretty darn good, but I just can't picture him ever being a superstar player, as in being the same caliber as Kobe.

 

[Insomniacal Fan]

If Kevin stays this consistant through the year, I wouldn't want to trade him for anybody older than 27. Mainly because we aren't going anywhere in the next couple of seasons anyway.

 

[Bricklayer]

You know, I think its ironic, but Kevin;s stature may have actually grown to such a degree that Minny might listen -- the young star player they would surely be looking for in a KG deal -- but the question might actually come from our side. Although that would be kinda dumb -- a KG/Bibby/Artest trio has serious title contender written all over it for at least the next 3-4 years. You gotta take that shot, especially with no mega power in the way and the LeBrons and Howards poised to dominate in a few years.



That said, a lot of time + effort has been invested in the Kevin Martin marketing over at Arco, and its hard to see them reversing course like that. Petrie might be that cerebral (maybe, he held onto Peja until he was pretty much pried out of his grasp, but its hard to see the more emotional types reversing course so quickly.

 

[Bricklayer]

If Kevin stays this consistant through the year, I wouldn't want to trade him for anybody older than 27. Mainly because we aren't going anywhere in the next couple of seasons anyway.

Ah...but we would be going serious places if, as mentioend you actually had a way to combine KG/Artest and Bibby together, along with SAR, amybe Salmons as that roleplayer. Best pair of forwards int eh game bar none, tow All-Defense team members, Bibby's dream pick and roll partner, shtoblocking and rebounding...yummy. Best yet, I would be willing to bet it would respark KGs passion -- he looks positively depressed anymore. But havign a real shot might return him to MVP form.

 

[GoGoGadget]

Best pair of forwards int eh game bar none, tow All-Defense team members, Bibby's dream pick and roll partner, shtoblocking and rebounding...yummy.

Super yummy.

I've still got a wishbone left over from Turkey Day...

 

[Troy]

It's a hard call. KMart is definately a rising star. Bibby/Miller are around KGs age so you have a few years to contend. Artest is 26 I believe so he should be around, we hope at least. I think this is a very fair offer. The wolves will most likely take Corliss with his expiring deal over K9s long term deal. It gives them youth in a rising star, salary dump, and a proven Center in Miller who is a top center.

I'd throw in Hart if they asked nice, but then then'd have to take K9 instead of Corliss.

Besides a Artest/KG/Bibby combo you would easily attract other good players who haven't won a championship yet. Look at how Shaq recruited in Miami!

 

[SacTownKid]

The Kings would have to consider this deal. The Twolves may look for more than this deal.

 

[Catalyst]

The Twolves may look for more than this deal.

I personally think that would be the main barrier in a deal like this -- the TWolves finding a better offer.

You start floating a name like KG around and a lot of offers are going to come your way.

That said, the Orlando Magic put Tracy McGrady's name out there a few years back, and all they got from it was Steve Francis -- yuck.

 

[Catalyst]

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/sports/16106770.htm

Top Timberwolf's future looks bleak because he won't turn his back on his team

By DWAIN PRICE

Star-Telegram Staff Writer

He ushered in the modern era of high school-to-pro phenoms. He will likely be remembered as one of the NBA's greatest players. And few in the game's history have played with as much passion and fire.

But the reality is that Kevin Garnett, the man-child who was selected with the fifth pick of the 1995 draft, may be destined to finish his career playing for a franchise that's simply treading water.

Mismanagement, poor draft selections and spotty talent evaluation have left the Minnesota Timberwolves in shambles, with Garnett forced to carry the franchise's fading hopes.

"It's sad to see," Mavericks forward Dirk Nowitzki said. "A guy like that, that's working that hard and is trying to do all the right things, you hate to see him in a situation where he won't make the playoffs.

"He's playing his heart out night in and night out. So it's just tough to see him go through that stretch."

Garnett and the T'wolves (6-6), who face the Mavs at 7:30 tonight at American Airlines Center, haven't been to the playoffs since losing to the Los Angeles Lakers in the 2004 Western Conference Finals. Before that, the T'wolves were eliminated in the first round of the playoffs in seven consecutive seasons.

In the Land of 10,000 Lakes, Garnett needs a life jacket. Could the T'wolves do the unthinkable and trade their franchise player to a contender before the February trade deadline? Not unless Garnett demands a trade, and that's something his warrior mentality will not allow.

"It's sad that we live in a society that's not built off loyalty and consistency," Garnett told the Minneapolis Star Tribune. "Within neighborhoods, ratting is at an all-time high, telling on everybody.

"It seems like people forget about loyalty. I'm such an old-school guy, but the standard now is to move on when something's bad."

Rumors have popped up frequently regarding Garnett's departure, especially during the past two years. This summer he was rumored to be headed to the Chicago Bulls -- he graduated from high school in Chicago -- for two first-round draft picks and either Ben Gordon or Luol Deng.

However, nothing materialized, in part because Garnett, now in his 12th season, never pressed the issue.

"I think a lot of organizations wish they had guys like [Garnett]," Washington Wizards forward Antawn Jamison said. "Everybody pretty much respects him in the league and would love to have him as a teammate.

"He's the reason why the NBA is the best at what it does as far as entertaining and showing respect out there on the court."

Still, Garnett, 30, has to realize that the meter is running on his glorious career. Magic Johnson played 13 seasons and won the last of his five NBA titles when he was 28. Larry Bird also played 13 seasons and captured the last of his three NBA championships when he was 29.

Sure, Bird and Magic were part of a different era and played college basketball, but the question remains relevant: Have we already seen the best Garnett has to offer?

After being drafted out of Chicago's Farragut Academy, Garnett became a nine-time All-Star, the league MVP in 2004 and a mainstay on the NBA's All-Defensive first team. But his scoring and rebounding averages are on pace to decline for the third consecutive season.

If you try hard enough, you can make a case -- though not a very good one -- that Ricky Davis (14 points, 5 assists per game) is Minnesota's second-best player.

It's the proverbial rock and a hard place.

"[Garnett is] their franchise right now, and I don't blame them for not even entertaining thoughts of trading him," Wizards coach Eddie Jordan said. "He's a special player, like Nowitzki, that you have to have special game plans for. He's a freak of nature in a sense. He's 6-11 and can shoot 3s, he can shoot perimeter shots, he's a good passer, he's a good rebounder and he's a heck of a scorer in different ways."

Garnett will earn $21 million this season, and his contract pays him another $46 million the next two seasons. However, he can opt out after the 2007-08 season.

"Everybody speaks from the newsstand, and the newsstand seems to be, 'That ain't working out for him. He needs to leave,'" Garnett said. "You hear former players speaking out. But if I was to go off what everybody else wants me to do, I'd probably be broke, out of the league, by the side of the road, living under a bridge. At some point, you've got to be a man and do what's best for you."

So what's best for KG?

"I would love to stay. That's my plan," Garnett said. "But it's got to be within the boundaries of winning.

"I take a lot of pride in being the face of the T'wolves. I'm pretty sure it would be weird to see me playing in another uniform."

 

[Heuge]

We are the favorite to win the championship this year if we do this deal. Get it done Geoff.

 

[Troy]

KG is awesome, but I'm pretty sure his best years are behind him so giving up your team's heart and soul for a player that is still good, but on the decline and making 1/3 of the teams's salary himself I don't think is a good idea. KMart has great upside, Miller is a top Center, but has his major problems on defense and rebounding and is not a shot blocker. KG brings the whole package and is a athletic freak, but will ultimately require tearing the heart of the team out if it's worth the Wolves time to hear a offer and consider it.

The Wolves would probably want Miller, Bibby, KMart or maybe Bibby, Artest, KMart, Corliss (expiring $6.5M at the end of the season). In any scenario, while KG and Artest would probably be the best Forward combo in the game, defensive at least, it is a huge gamble. If KG gets hurt like CWebb we are really screwed, if KG is only a shadow of himself we will have paid too much. I'd rather go after a Pau Gasol, Dwight Howard, Chris Bosh, Lebron, Carmelo, Wade....a young kid that is amazing and has great upside and worth the gamble rather than a player that was unbelievable and heading towards a downward trend and we paid premium price for.