To those that always include Thornton in their trade deals

I agree that our coaching has been crap since...well, Adelman. But with Thornton, fit is a huge issue. He is a SG. Reke is a SG. If Thornton would be willing to take a lesser bench role, it would be all good, but I dont see that happening. So might as well ship him out, especially since he has decent value (something that you cant really say about any of our other players, sans Reke and Cousins).
 
f it, no point in arguing anymore,here is my philosophy- the team is a talented mess, and the best way to make strides at cleaning up, is to get a coach who knows what he's doing, then hope everything else falls into place. Until then i don't think we will see much progress, no matter who's on the roster
Can't quite believe that. The owners, the head of basketball operations, the coach, his staff, the press, the fans, even this web site all want things improved and they will. It probably won't be done your way, or Brick's way, or my way but it will happen. You can take it to the bank.
 
Can't quite believe that. The owners, the head of basketball operations, the coach, his staff, the press, the fans, even this web site all want things improved and they will. It probably won't be done your way, or Brick's way, or my way but it will happen. You can take it to the bank.

Your optimism in the face of Maloofery is admirable!
 
But with Thornton, fit is a huge issue. He is a SG. Reke is a SG. .
Reke is a SG ? Really? But he can't shoot... If anybody doesn't fit, it's Reke. I'm not going to deny the fact that he's one of the most talented guys at going to the basket that this league has seen in recent years, but other than that, I'm just not sure why so many people think Reke is on the cusp of being an All-Star and mentioning him in trade talks is blasphemy. If Reke could hit the broadside of a barn, we wouldn't be having this discussion, but apparently he can't. Playing a guy at SG, who can't really shoot, can be a bit of a liability. Playing Evans at PG, might also be playing him "out of position", but I think that's the best place to put him, at least leading up to the deadline.
 
Reke is a SG ? Really? But he can't shoot... If anybody doesn't fit, it's Reke. I'm not going to deny the fact that he's one of the most talented guys at going to the basket that this league has seen in recent years, but other than that, I'm just not sure why so many people think Reke is on the cusp of being an All-Star and mentioning him in trade talks is blasphemy. If Reke could hit the broadside of a barn, we wouldn't be having this discussion, but apparently he can't. Playing a guy at SG, who can't really shoot, can be a bit of a liability. Playing Evans at PG, might also be playing him "out of position", but I think that's the best place to put him, at least leading up to the deadline.

Reke may not be hitting every shot from the perimeter but he's an average shooter in the NBA. One major factor that drops his FG percentage is that he love's the shoot half-court buzzer beaters at least twice in a game.
 
You have to trade value to get value. MT, Reke and #5 pick represent the pieces that NBA teams would actually be willing to give good pieces up for.

And as for the team, I actually don't think we have a shot distribution problem amongst the role players. There's no one who's taking an obscene amount of shots away from those 3 guys. The problem is that we have 3 guys who all feel they should be a #1 option and shoot accordingly. Use the 4 teams left in the playoffs as an example:

OKC: Durant and Westbrook are without question option 1 and 2. Harden is willing to defer to them when the time calls for it and does some many other things well.

Spurs: Parker is the #1 option with Timmy as the #2. Ginobli plays a bigger role than Harden does, but he's an incredibly unselfish player and only scores the ball when he has too

Celtics: Pierce and KG are there main scoring options with Rondo and Allen behind them. They know their roles behind Pierce and KG and defer to them when the time calls

Miami: LeBron and Wade a 1a and 1B with Bosh as the 3rd wheel. The difference is that LeBron is incredibly unselfish and does so many things on the offensive end for himself and his teammates. Wade plays the same way and Bosh is perfectly content with defering to them

Sacramento: Three guys who are essentially looking to do it themselves. MT will chuck from anywhere, Reke (while being the most unselfish) gets in iso-ram the ball to the rim-mode and it was rare to see Cousins pass out of the post. I don't blame the players or coaches at all; it's just the kind of players these guys are. The problem is that we can have 3 guys demand 45 shots a game and no one being willing to defer to one another. It's also a big reason we looked a lot more coherent offensively with only Reke or Thornton on the floor

The point is a team cannot coexist with 3 alpha dogs on offense. I have no doubt we could build a winner with MT at SG or Reke at SG. We just have to pick one and trade the other or start one and bring the other off the bench
 
The_Jamal said:
Sacramento: Three guys who are essentially looking to do it themselves. MT will chuck from anywhere, Reke (while being the most unselfish) gets in iso-ram the ball to the rim-mode and it was rare to see Cousins pass out of the post. I don't blame the players or coaches at all; it's just the kind of players these guys are. The problem is that we can have 3 guys demand 45 shots a game and no one being willing to defer to one another. It's also a big reason we looked a lot more coherent offensively with only Reke or Thornton on the floor

The point is a team cannot coexist with 3 alpha dogs on offense. I have no doubt we could build a winner with MT at SG or Reke at SG. We just have to pick one and trade the other or start one and bring the other off the bench

I agree with your last paragraph. My preference would be to put Tyreke at SG and move Thornton to the bench to a Harden type role. Obviously he can't play defense like Harden, so he'd be Harden light, but I think that would give the bench better depth. Of the three, I don't think anyone wants to win more than Cousins. And I believe in my heart of hearts, that he'll do anything asked of him, if it leads to wins. I think he's the most malleable of the three. He can be the focus of the offense, or he can be the initiator of the offense. I honestly don't think he cares, as long as the team wins.

But like all young players, if the system isn't working, or at least they percieve its not working, they then take matters into their own hands. It my personal opinion that the offense should revolve around Cousins in some fashion. He's the best player on the team with the talent to do just about anything asked on the offensive side of the ball. Tyreke is the second most talented player on the team. But Tyreke's feel for the game isn't on the same level as Cousins. If Tyreke can bring his game up a notch, there's no reason that duo can't be one of the best in the league. What I love about them together, is their contrasting styles. Once they learn how play off each other, and make those styles compliment each other, they'll be very hard to defend.
 
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I don't think Thornton has the game to be anything close to Harden or Ginobili's level. Those are borderline all stars and all around players. Thornton is closer to Lou Williams or Jamal Crawford. He needs to be the #2 or #1b when he's on the floor, which is only a bad thing on a team with Cousins and Evans. Off the bench would work, except he would be relying on Salmons and Jimmer as the primary ballhandlers.

Not a well constructed roster.
 
SF that can pass

I was thinking a major piece would be a SF that could pass. I was thinking of Orlando how Hedo brings the ball up and does the primary playmaking. Hedo costs way too much and I don't think I would like to trade thorton (only cuzz valueable) for hedo unless we get rid of one of salmons or garcia (then amnesty the other).

Reke-IT
Twill-(hole where thorton used to be)
Hedo-Honeycutt
Thompson-Drummond or Robinson
Cousins-Hayes

I don't know if there are any sf that can playmake similar to hedo without giving away a valueable asset like thorton.
 
I agree with your last paragraph. My preference would be to put Tyreke at SG and move Thornton to the bench to a Harden type role. Obviously he can't play defense like Harden, so he'd be Harden light, but I think that would give the bench better depth. Of the three, I don't think anyone wants to win more than Cousins. And I believe in my heart of hearts, that he'll do anything asked of him, if it leads to wins. I think he's the most malleable of the three. He can be the focus of the offense, or he can be the initiator of the offense. I honestly don't think he cares, as long as the team wins.

But like all young players, if the system isn't working, or at least they percieve its not working, they then take matters into their own hands. It my personal opinion that the offense should revolve around Cousins in some fashion. He's the best player on the team with the talent to do just about anything asked on the offensive side of the ball. Tyreke is the second most talented player on the team. But Tyreke's feel for the game isn't on the same level as Cousins. If Tyreke can bring his game up a notch, there's no reason that duo can't be one of the best in the league. What I love about them together, is their contrasting styles. Once they learn how play off each other, and make those styles compliment each other, they'll be very hard to defend.

I think we agree on the "framework" of it all but disagree on the shades of it. For example, IMHO, Harden is a very unselfish player and his type of role off the bench is golden for OK.

OTOH, Thornton is alpha dog in every sense of the word. He has never met a shot he didn't like and he perceives himself as "The Man"! I can't see him buying into coming off the bench and even less into playing the type of role that Harden plays.

As others have said, Thornton is a gunner so when he comes off the bench, its instant offence. That is great but at the same time, its almost like you can't have him out there at the same time as Cousins and Tyreke because he would take away from them.

Thornton is more suited as option 1 or 2 but as you have said, Tyreke is a more talented and more "rounded" player. The only thing holding Tyreke back is a consistent jump shot. Other than the jumpshot, Tyreke is better than Thornton at any other part of the game and those are the guys you move forward with.

I also like that Cousins' and Tyreke's games are contrasting and together they could be one of the best duos in the league and it is my opinion that Tyreke being more "placid" is a great thing in this case. We all love Boogie but he is a BIG personality and an alpha dog who would do anything to win. Tyreke is more of a quiet type and would also do anything that's best of the team. Those 2 guys mesh in more ways than one. There won't be an issue of "clash of egos" between those two.

While I love players with chip on the shoulder attitude, one thing I hate in a player is selfishness or black hole tendencies and that is something that Thornton has. I am not suggesting that he is a cancer. Far from it, but his approach to this point suggest that he would be one player on our roster that would have the biggest issue taking a lesser role for the team to win. He also happens to be the least talented of the 3 players and that is not a good combination going forward.

Thornton has tremendous value as a player and as a trade chip. It is quite likely that you can get an equally talented player in return but one that is more willing to take on the role that we want Thornton to take. That is why mentioned a number of times that I would trade Thornton for Batum. I think both are good players but Batum would be more willing to accept the role or take a backward step for the good of the team than Thornton. In OK terms, when it comes to attitude, think of MT as Westbrook and Tyreke as Harder (I am talking attitude only)

And before people start saying Tyreke should be coming off the bench instead, you need to realise that Tyreke is a unique talent that brings more to the table than just scoring. He is a great rebounder for his position, a good and potentially great perimeter defender. He can create for others and himself and brings ball handing and flexibility both offensively and defensively. Tyreke is a consistent jump shot away from being unguardable where as when Thornton's shot is not falling, he becomes a liability.

And before people start talking about Manu or Harder, we are talking about teams that we built very differently to what we have.
 
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