Time to panic?
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Vladizzle
Bench
Maybe you haven't watched enough basketball to see players productions and abilities can vary from system to system. Including shooting.
If you have athletic guys with size and quick feet like Willie you can teach them to play defense. Likewise you can teach them to rebound. I believe toughness can be increased by a lot. I have coached plenty of kids that were marshmallow soft. After loose ball drills diving on the floor, running laps for bad performance, etc. you can get their attention and increase the intensity. It makes sense that if you have pro caliber athletes making millions of dollars you ought to be able to do the same thing. If Willie wants to play for Sacto next year he needs to find another gear to play at.
John Galt
Starter
Agree in principle. Just a question of degree... I mean has Willie proved unable to be a consistent NBA starter? I'm starting to think we're approaching that point. Willing to concede that we should wait 5-10-15-20 more games... it is is a lost season anyway so what's the diff.
But his deficit isn't that he can't knock down a shot, or he doesn't know how to handle certain scenarios on the floor... it's that he is incredibly astonishingly complacent (appears to be). And that seems like it has been demonstrated now.
Now watch him go 30-20 tonight and turn into a double-double machine between now and the break .... hope so
It wasn't a dumb statement. I mean we don't really know if these guys would shoot better in a different system but they would wind up with more open shots than just long 2 pointers. Remember Belinelli a couple years back when I think it was Karl that had him running off of screens to get looks? He shot like garbage. Very next year the Hornets let him go back to spot shooting the majority of the time and he was back to his career norms. Systems do have a hand in shooting.
kingjatt
Starter
Look at players like Nick Young, Javale Magee, PJ Tucker, Hell even Luc Mbah Moute who went from rudderless crap systems like the kings to great systems and tell me the systems do not have anything to do with there improved shooting,efficiency, and overall better play.
I know the counter arguement to that is going to be KD, Steph, Harden etc feed them easy hoops but these are bench guys who see alot of court time without the superstars and still shoot great within the confinds of the system.
Even look at bad teams like the knicks and nets. Hornchek finally allowed to run his system and bam guys like Hardaway,KP look so much better.
DLO allowed to play as a PnR creator and given an ultimate green light and bam he shoots at career levels.
Systems, structure, roles matter immensely!
The wins we were able to grab were on pure effort which you can stumble into when teams are sleeping during the dog days of the NBA season but cannot rely on when teams actually bring it. Regardless of whether we win or lose any upcoming game the fundamental flaws of how the coach is operating are clear as day. Either he changes his ways and coaches a modern style or he needs to be fired. I do believe he has it in him to coach a new school team. But for some reason he feels obligated in keeping everyone happy and running random rotations night after night.
I'm most intrigued by Ayton as well. March madness may change my opinion.. we will see. Porter should have franchise player written all over and we certainly have need at that position as well. At this point Doncic is low on my list as I also believe toughness is sorely needed.
Folsomkingsfan
Starter
I always end up wanting the guys that bust so I'm not going to pretend to be a draft expert, but Ayton looks transcendentally great to me. If he ever starts hitting the 3 consistently, jeeeez.
Vladizzle
Bench
Excellent examples.
I just used the Grizzlies as an easy example because it was a Joerger coached team.
They went (with the same personnel) last in the league in 3 pt shooting.. to 4th last in the league..to 14th as soon as Fizdale runs a new system, and they are around the same this year.
Look at everyone who left the Grizzlies as well after struggling to shoot there.
KingsFanSince85
All-Star
And you obviously haven't been around this forum long enough to know that you've made a really poor assumption. I may not always agree with him, but one thing that can't be questioned is how much bball Baja has seen over the years.
You should know your audience before making assumptions like that.
@Vladizzle made clear points with evidence to back it up and the only response he got was "that's the dumbest thing I have read on the forum" which is not a argument and quiet rude. Either disprove his point with arguments/evidence or don't respond (not talking to your directly). He's got every right to defend himself.
Vladizzle
Bench
Ahh got to love message board elitists..
Someone could join the forum tomorrow and have been watching since the 1960s..no need to make judgements based on join dates.
kingsboi
Hall of Famer
but hey...to each their own
King Baller
All-Star
The point is the Kings did not miss all those shots in Atlanta because of the system. They missed wide open shots time and again.
King Baller
All-Star
Rookies suck so lets make them learn a complicated system which makes sure they struggle and plays to their weaknesses not strengths.
Systems dont matter? I cant take you seriously man Im sorry. Why even have a coaching staff by that logic?
Take a look around Golden State, Celtics, alomg with the Rockets all play the slash and heavy 3 systems. Do the celtics and rockets have better players than OKC, T-Wolves? Heck even the Pelicans have more talent but they all sure do not have more wins than the Rockets or Celtics both of which play a modern system.
Can you quote where anyone has said they expect instant success this year? I just want to watch a fun team shoot 3s and run the floor and play a P n R heavy offense.
Not whatever outdated ill fitting offense we are watching this year.
Have you forgotten?? Dantoni only won COY in 2017.
A 2 win team just beat us by 40......but everything is fine no need to question the coach because players.
D won COY because of Harden
yeah, bajaden hasn't watched enough basketball.
And someone could join the forum tomorrow and not be so naive as to not think that someone who has been around as long as bajaden has probably watched a lot of basketball. Look at his posts. I think you might realize (or should) that he obviously has spent a lot of time watching/following the sport. For you to assume otherwise is pretty silly.
As far as the board being elitist goes, guilty as charged in some respects. It's that way on every single sports board I've ever seen and I'm active on a number of them. Think you have it bad? Try being a female...
Have a good night.
GO KINGS!
Vladizzle
Bench
I didn't say they missed all, but it attributes to it. Unless you're a spot up specialist, a lot of it is not being allowed to get in rhythm.
Ik I'm beating a dead horse with these Grizzlies examples, but I can pull up exact same stances from fans when they would brick wide open shot after wide open shot. It wasn't until Joerger left they started changing their tune to acknowledging NBA level players need their freedom to flow within an offense and standing and watching and feeding a post guy takes many out of the offense. You can just look at the players on their team's numbers once they left hit a magical rebirth of their stroke. When they got their, they lost it.
Vince Carter is an easy example. Lights out shooter, gets to Orlando in a Dwight Howard system and struggled, got to Dallas and was back at good shooting numbers. Gets to Memphis, dips again on the worst shooting team in the league, Joerger leaves new offense and he shines again. Back here and he's looking more of the same as he did early in Memphis.
Notice everyone and their mother can shoot on the rockets and warriors? The system has plenty to do with it for the role players. Some of these guys, Eric Gordon I wanna say struggled for a bit until getting back into a system like Houston.
I'm not saying we should be like either of those teams, but high post or Zbo iso offense? No bueno.
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Winning cures a lot of problems, especially with role players.
King Baller
All-Star
parker
Bench
The Grizzlies won 43 games last year. The year before with Joerger they won 42 (despite major injuries). So all that better coaching and shooting was good for 1 additional win? Joerger won 55 and 50 in the previous two years.
Isn't the point of the game winning?
Vladizzle
Bench
Ik this sounds ridiculous from an outside standpoint. But as a Tennessee resident who followed the Grizzlies regularly outside of the Kings..Joerger ran his players into the ground in regular season. Every fan will tell you this and I can pull up posts it I must.. they had the most injured players ALL TIME of ANY TEAM under Joerger that year. It was insane watching them all collapse at the final stretch of the season. He wouldn't rest vets a minute even with the seeds wrapped up. Fizdale implemented a whole new system, and rested his players, by schedule even, because of that injury crazy year.
I'm not saying Joerger is a bad coach, but I kind of am from an NBA level I honestly think he is awful and doesn't belong. He inherited a contending team...solidifying some contracts from some suckers like Vlade. He has his pros, like out of bounds plays and defensive pressure, but I just can't handle his cons..it's so destructive to avoid players strengths to square peg in a round hole your offense.
Suicide King
Starter
I don't understand why you're not supporting Fizdale's team. It's cool to bring up facts, but you seem like you like bringing up the Memphis past rather than addressing the current Kings.
I understand, one game and all, but you have to admit, the whole team seemed to rise up for this home game, no?
Vladizzle
Bench
Wait, what? I'm just using Grizzlies as an example because that's our current coach's former team and I consider to have good knowledge having followed them as a secondary team.
Yes, they rose up, I enjoyed it. 86 points is concerning to me though, as they can't seem to score enough to compete any other games. I definitely enjoyed tonight, but I can't kid myself, it is one game and we aren't elite defensively enough to win many more games scoring under 90. Although our overall defense does have potential as a silver lining of it all
I think what you're missing is a lot of us consider Joerger's history in Memphis to be just that ... history. You want to judge him here based on what you didn't like there and I personally do not think it's relevant. You think Joerger is a bad coach. Most of us think he's a vast improvement over what's come through Sacramento since Rick Adelman left.
Regardless, I think Joerger needs to be judged on current performance. Much like players find their niche, coaches do too and I personally think Joerger is doing a credible job building his here in Sacramento.
Vladizzle
Bench
How is it possibly not relevant? It is regarding the now. We signed Zbo and run the same offense sans Marc Gasol with the Kings current team. It isn't catering to our players strengths aside post players (who are too old, or underdeveloped)
Not sure how you don't get where the complaints are coming from.
1. He's running the same offense as he was in Memphis, with significantly less player personnel to fit this.
2. His offense was never successful to begin with.
3. His offense proved to alienate shooters and guards, while focusing on post play..which can explain some of the shooting woes now.
I mean come on now..the running knowledge/joke around the league about the Joerger led Grizzlies was that they beat you by slowing it down to play in the mud and just win by defense and grit.
Why would we want that? We don't have Tony Allen, Mike Conley, Marc Gasol, Zbo, etc all in their prime. Mucking it up and running all slow tempo post play sounds like an awful idea and that's what we've been doing much of the season unless we get in transition.
Suicide King
Starter
I did not mean to attack your character, or your basketball knowledge.
I will let my past posts speak for themselves, the Blazers were a tough opponent given our performance on the road trip. I thought the game was executed very well. Not flawless, but from coaching, line ups, execution, passes, substitutions, new line ups, coming off a franchise victory at home for the Atlanta Hawks, and an 0-3 road trip, I think we did ok.
King Baller
All-Star
Let me let you in on a little talked about subject these days. Those Kings glory years we all revel over with one of the top teams of all time? Coach Adelman played those Vets BIG minutes and many thought he played them too much. For many years the thought process was that a tight 8 or 9 man rotation was the big ticket. The Stars all would play close to 40 minutes a game. Lots of Coaches did it.
Some still do. Check this link and see how many players are at 35+--> http://www.espn.com/nba/seasonleaders/_/league/nba/sort/avgMinutes
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