Time to panic?
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He talked about it all summer too and then implemented about the slowest offensive system you can run. Fox can't just run up the court and make something happen off an opponents miss or an inbound pass. It works every once in a while but it's not a consistent offensive play for any NBA team. You can't just fast break all the time as an offensive system.
All it takes is getting a step on one guy or commanding one double team and you've already began the breakdown of an entire defense. So why is it that Dennis Schroder can PnR with Dedmon and destroy us by using the screen to either get to the basket or throw a lob to Demon all night? Yet Fox, who is just as fast or faster than Schroder, with WCS who is bigger, longer and more athletic than Dedmon, can't even run that play to success one single time all night?
I don't know exactly how the play calling works. If the PG has the discretion to call the play or if it's done by the coach but one reason why that play wasn't successful was because they rarely ran it all night, if at all. I'm not going to put myself through the torture of going over Kings film to make a point on here but I'd probably guess that they never ran that play at all and/or when they did run it, WCS just stayed planted at the elbow and never rolled to the rim. If they'd just run that play correctly, it only takes a couple seconds to develop. We could run that play, score and be back on defense before WCS could even find a guard to pass the ball to in a high post set.
If coach wants them to play faster then he needs to call plays that work faster.
All it takes is getting a step on one guy or commanding one double team and you've already began the breakdown of an entire defense. So why is it that Dennis Schroder can PnR with Dedmon and destroy us by using the screen to either get to the basket or throw a lob to Demon all night? Yet Fox, who is just as fast or faster than Schroder, with WCS who is bigger, longer and more athletic than Dedmon, can't even run that play to success one single time all night?
I don't know exactly how the play calling works. If the PG has the discretion to call the play or if it's done by the coach but one reason why that play wasn't successful was because they rarely ran it all night, if at all. I'm not going to put myself through the torture of going over Kings film to make a point on here but I'd probably guess that they never ran that play at all and/or when they did run it, WCS just stayed planted at the elbow and never rolled to the rim. If they'd just run that play correctly, it only takes a couple seconds to develop. We could run that play, score and be back on defense before WCS could even find a guard to pass the ball to in a high post set.
If coach wants them to play faster then he needs to call plays that work faster.
Rookies suck so lets make them learn a complicated system which makes sure they struggle and plays to their weaknesses not strengths.
Systems dont matter? I cant take you seriously man Im sorry. Why even have a coaching staff by that logic?
Take a look around Golden State, Celtics, alomg with the Rockets all play the slash and heavy 3 systems. Do the celtics and rockets have better players than OKC, T-Wolves? Heck even the Pelicans have more talent but they all sure do not have more wins than the Rockets or Celtics both of which play a modern system.
Can you quote where anyone has said they expect instant success this year? I just want to watch a fun team shoot 3s and run the floor and play a P n R heavy offense.
Not whatever outdated ill fitting offense we are watching this year.
Have you forgotten?? Dantoni only won COY in 2017.
A 2 win team just beat us by 40......but everything is fine no need to question the coach because players.
Systems dont matter? I cant take you seriously man Im sorry. Why even have a coaching staff by that logic?
Take a look around Golden State, Celtics, alomg with the Rockets all play the slash and heavy 3 systems. Do the celtics and rockets have better players than OKC, T-Wolves? Heck even the Pelicans have more talent but they all sure do not have more wins than the Rockets or Celtics both of which play a modern system.
Can you quote where anyone has said they expect instant success this year? I just want to watch a fun team shoot 3s and run the floor and play a P n R heavy offense.
Not whatever outdated ill fitting offense we are watching this year.
Have you forgotten?? Dantoni only won COY in 2017.
A 2 win team just beat us by 40......but everything is fine no need to question the coach because players.
This may not be the proper place for this link but they mention Temple in it so I figured I'd post it in here anyway. Very interesting read to say the least. Maybe Trill needs to get some advice from Garret in regards to diet?
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...om&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...om&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial
The Kings are not a serious organization and it's been that way for some time, they consistently reward terrible effort, the coaching has been a joke this season I don't want to hear this well "Dave can't make shots for them" the Lakers the other night against Philly were like 33-91 from the field heading into the 3rd with a 1 point lead because Luke Walton benched guys not going hard and replaced them with the likes of Clarkson and company.
Dave and Vlade should both be on the brink of being fired Vlade cap space use has been a joke every year he's been here and Dave really has done nothing to get the absolute best out of the teams in his tenure and has served up the most boring least effective basketball in quiet some time.
Dave and Vlade should both be on the brink of being fired Vlade cap space use has been a joke every year he's been here and Dave really has done nothing to get the absolute best out of the teams in his tenure and has served up the most boring least effective basketball in quiet some time.
The more I think about our current woes, while trying to be objective, a key issue at the moment is we have no Alpha. Players seem reluctant, hesitant, not clear on their roles and who is the Alpha. With Cousins it was clear who the Alpha was. Coach Joerger has said ( paraphrasing ) that he is looking for who is going to step up.
Z-Bo , like him or no, knows his role on the court and has been living up to it. Kosta knows his role. I dare say he has been stepping up even and out hustling everyone. Even a few alley-oops sprinkled in with mixed results. Temple knows his role. His defense , as usual, has been steady. He even seems a little more apt to take the open three. Hill KNEW his role coming in, and I think he will live up to it. He has looked a little more like what was expected the last few games. Vince has been out with kidney stones.
For the most part, the vets are filling their roles. The younger core needs an Alpha to emerge among them. This will likely take time. I think once one or two of the younger players start to take on the leader, Alpha role, things won't look so bleak.
Who is it going to be? Not sure. Fox and Buddy seem the most likely candidates just based on personality and play style.
Just my opinion. No matter what, I'm not quite ready to bring out the pitch forks. Like a vet, I knew what I was getting into watching every game so far this season.
Z-Bo , like him or no, knows his role on the court and has been living up to it. Kosta knows his role. I dare say he has been stepping up even and out hustling everyone. Even a few alley-oops sprinkled in with mixed results. Temple knows his role. His defense , as usual, has been steady. He even seems a little more apt to take the open three. Hill KNEW his role coming in, and I think he will live up to it. He has looked a little more like what was expected the last few games. Vince has been out with kidney stones.
For the most part, the vets are filling their roles. The younger core needs an Alpha to emerge among them. This will likely take time. I think once one or two of the younger players start to take on the leader, Alpha role, things won't look so bleak.
Who is it going to be? Not sure. Fox and Buddy seem the most likely candidates just based on personality and play style.
Just my opinion. No matter what, I'm not quite ready to bring out the pitch forks. Like a vet, I knew what I was getting into watching every game so far this season.
It can be both. Doesn't have to be so black and white in basketball. There's possibility of just being cold, or warm the other nights. There's plenty of variables. However, these same players have proven to be good shooters so they should get the benefit of the doubt.
I'm using full seasons for my Grizzlies sample too. You have nearly the same exact personnel the year before Fizdale took over. They got plenty of open shots with Dave.. Fans said the same thing then until time past and they saw a new system and tempo and ended up agreeing with me. Those same players became better shooters, or back to their norm after dips with Joerger.
It's called rhythm.
Shooters can't get into rhythm in high post, post iso heavy basketball. At least any type of rhythm shooter can't. It's essentially just not video game players out there unfortunately where it's as easy as push a button and shoot, getting a catch and shoot after standing around watching a post player go to work isn't as rhythmic as modern offenses.
It's part of why 90s and prior basketball can't shoot 3s worth a lick. Heck even most of the 2000s. I love me some old school basketball, but it's definitely going to hinder your shooting ability as a whole. Considering our roster has a lot of young and old guards, wings, who can also shoot, I think it's better to play to your strengths..
I'm using full seasons for my Grizzlies sample too. You have nearly the same exact personnel the year before Fizdale took over. They got plenty of open shots with Dave.. Fans said the same thing then until time past and they saw a new system and tempo and ended up agreeing with me. Those same players became better shooters, or back to their norm after dips with Joerger.
It's called rhythm.
Shooters can't get into rhythm in high post, post iso heavy basketball. At least any type of rhythm shooter can't. It's essentially just not video game players out there unfortunately where it's as easy as push a button and shoot, getting a catch and shoot after standing around watching a post player go to work isn't as rhythmic as modern offenses.
It's part of why 90s and prior basketball can't shoot 3s worth a lick. Heck even most of the 2000s. I love me some old school basketball, but it's definitely going to hinder your shooting ability as a whole. Considering our roster has a lot of young and old guards, wings, who can also shoot, I think it's better to play to your strengths..
Against other D league competition.. and without the disposal of veterans lol. This argument is dumb no offense.
It takes two games of watching to realize -- Joerger PREFERS veterans. Now that he has some, we've seen the results. Zbo lock starter, 50% of the offense run through him and an entire system pandered to him. A 36 year old vet.
His biggest complaint by Memphis fans was actually his unwillingness to play youth, even in blowouts. Who cares about his D league championship success? What about his NBA tendencies? Shouldn't those matter more?
It takes two games of watching to realize -- Joerger PREFERS veterans. Now that he has some, we've seen the results. Zbo lock starter, 50% of the offense run through him and an entire system pandered to him. A 36 year old vet.
His biggest complaint by Memphis fans was actually his unwillingness to play youth, even in blowouts. Who cares about his D league championship success? What about his NBA tendencies? Shouldn't those matter more?
Fox is an alpha and will be our alpha but he can't do it 20 games into his rookie season. He's likely an 18-20 pt/6-8 assist, 1.5 stl guy RIGHT NOW, if he was given/was to take alpha status. However he's a smart alpha, meaning he knows it has to be earned and given to him by all other players. That takes time. It's also true that he has to learn the league and work on his shooting.
But make no mistake. Fox is our alpha in training and everybody knows it. He's being eased into it though by a) the coach b) himself and c) other players reluctant to let a rookie take over the team.
End of this year and into next year he will blow up.
Roles will solidify. Buddy will settle into 2nd/3rd option and possibly bench leader, and Skal will emerge as 2nd/3rd option. Willie will realize he has to be defensive leader. Other pieces will settle out from there. But I agree, we need an alpha. It's just that we already drafted him.
But make no mistake. Fox is our alpha in training and everybody knows it. He's being eased into it though by a) the coach b) himself and c) other players reluctant to let a rookie take over the team.
End of this year and into next year he will blow up.
Roles will solidify. Buddy will settle into 2nd/3rd option and possibly bench leader, and Skal will emerge as 2nd/3rd option. Willie will realize he has to be defensive leader. Other pieces will settle out from there. But I agree, we need an alpha. It's just that we already drafted him.
The team is as soft as any team can get but that's not surprising when you draft and trade for soft players.
WCS - mentally soft.
Skal - a little less mentally soft than WCS but physically soft by a lot right now.
Fox - physically soft (for now).
Jackson - probably the softest player on the team.
Bogie - crafty, but soft.
Hield - trying his best to rebound but soft due to lack of athleticism.
Malachi - not soft on offense but softer than the average SF due to playing out of position.
Mason - seems strong mentally and physically for his size, but undersized which will make him look soft.
PapaG - mentally strong, physically soft for his size and looks even softer on defense due to being out of position a lot.
This is what happens when you change the culture and create a team of good guys that all get along.
The Kings are going to need to draft a big that can defend and rebound this year. I just don't see how we could win with a guy like Doncic, as talented as he is, he will just add to the softness of this team.
WCS - mentally soft.
Skal - a little less mentally soft than WCS but physically soft by a lot right now.
Fox - physically soft (for now).
Jackson - probably the softest player on the team.
Bogie - crafty, but soft.
Hield - trying his best to rebound but soft due to lack of athleticism.
Malachi - not soft on offense but softer than the average SF due to playing out of position.
Mason - seems strong mentally and physically for his size, but undersized which will make him look soft.
PapaG - mentally strong, physically soft for his size and looks even softer on defense due to being out of position a lot.
This is what happens when you change the culture and create a team of good guys that all get along.
The Kings are going to need to draft a big that can defend and rebound this year. I just don't see how we could win with a guy like Doncic, as talented as he is, he will just add to the softness of this team.
I agree and it's something that the coaching staff has been saying. Part of it, I hope, is that young guys come into the league soft because they just don't know better or it's just the way things are. 19-20 year olds just aren't going to be as tough as you need them to beat though there are exceptions for sure. They are going up against grown ass men. I guess you can draft guys who have that " eff you " mentality but it appears we don't have that "yet".
It's a roster just not ready to win and when they go on the road, the young guys are inconsistent as hell and no one is willing to go Matt Barnes on others. Lots of Kings fans just didnt understand why Joerger played Barnes so much and it is fairly obvious, he likes guys who are not afraid to be tough or have an "eff you " way of doing things.
Our vets we have are either too old or also good dudes....guys that just won't lay some wood on somebody. That's not a coaching staff deal and might not even be a Divac deal as, like Hammer said previously, we may drafted those guys but they aren't ready to be that type of guy.
This is pretty much why I would play Papa over WCS at this point. wCS is making me a non believer. I think Papa would not take crap. Make the other teams think twice about going in the middle. Joerger is criticized for winning with his vets in Memphis. He should be criticized if he didnt win with those guys. Dude is asking for some toughness, players need to step up. Perhaps this is why Skal doesn't see more playing time. Great shot from lots of places on the court. Soft as hell. Needs to toughen the hell up. Maybe this is why Joerger says its a matchup problem when asked about Skal and PT. Would you rather he embarrass the youngster in the media by saying he's too soft.....probably not a good strategy.
This roster is designed to flourish, hopefully 3 years from now. I'm thinking the next step for these guys is to toughen the hell up mentally and physically. I wouldn't mind some of the Boogie or Barnes mentality right now.
It's a roster just not ready to win and when they go on the road, the young guys are inconsistent as hell and no one is willing to go Matt Barnes on others. Lots of Kings fans just didnt understand why Joerger played Barnes so much and it is fairly obvious, he likes guys who are not afraid to be tough or have an "eff you " way of doing things.
Our vets we have are either too old or also good dudes....guys that just won't lay some wood on somebody. That's not a coaching staff deal and might not even be a Divac deal as, like Hammer said previously, we may drafted those guys but they aren't ready to be that type of guy.
This is pretty much why I would play Papa over WCS at this point. wCS is making me a non believer. I think Papa would not take crap. Make the other teams think twice about going in the middle. Joerger is criticized for winning with his vets in Memphis. He should be criticized if he didnt win with those guys. Dude is asking for some toughness, players need to step up. Perhaps this is why Skal doesn't see more playing time. Great shot from lots of places on the court. Soft as hell. Needs to toughen the hell up. Maybe this is why Joerger says its a matchup problem when asked about Skal and PT. Would you rather he embarrass the youngster in the media by saying he's too soft.....probably not a good strategy.
This roster is designed to flourish, hopefully 3 years from now. I'm thinking the next step for these guys is to toughen the hell up mentally and physically. I wouldn't mind some of the Boogie or Barnes mentality right now.
At least Papa is good for a few hard fouls a game. When was last time anybody saw the Kings giving a hard foul?
I for one do not understand the discrepancy between how Joerger uses Skal and how he uses WCS. On the one hand with Skal we see a guy who obviously makes mistakes on the court (e.g. fouling 3 point shooters), but we also see him put out the effort. With WCS we see a guy who does not put out effort (and I believe he's still making mistakes). So why does Joerger play and start the guy who does not play with effort over the guy who plays with effort?
I for one do not understand the discrepancy between how Joerger uses Skal and how he uses WCS. On the one hand with Skal we see a guy who obviously makes mistakes on the court (e.g. fouling 3 point shooters), but we also see him put out the effort. With WCS we see a guy who does not put out effort (and I believe he's still making mistakes). So why does Joerger play and start the guy who does not play with effort over the guy who plays with effort?
I agree with your premise; just not the conclusion. I see other teams getting raw athletic guys from the G league and develop them, or sign a similar type FA for a small amount, or trade peanuts for a guy who does the dirty work and puts out the effort. Look at Dedmon, the guy that just ate WCS alive. Who wouldn't like to have him on our team right now? Sure, if the Kings have a chance to draft the next Shaq, go for it. But hopefully they don't repeat the same error of drafting for need that they did with Jimmer (the great complement to Tyreke) or WCS (the great compliment to Cousins). Some of the biggest failures of this organization over the last decade (and yes, I realize there is different management now) has been to use need as an excuse to draft a player and failing because of it. How many times do we have to see this faulty logic play itself out for us to realize that it just doesn't work?
) or WCS (the great compliment to Cousins). Some of the biggest failures of this organization over the last decade (and yes, I realize there is different management now) has been to use need as an excuse to draft a player and failing because of it. How many times do we have to see this faulty logic play itself out for us to realize that it just doesn't work?
I agree with your premise; just not the conclusion. I see other teams getting raw athletic guys from the G league and develop them, or sign a similar type FA for a small amount, or trade peanuts for a guy who does the dirty work and puts out the effort. Look at Dedmon, the guy that just ate WCS alive. Who wouldn't like to have him on our team right now? Sure, if the Kings have a chance to draft the next Shaq, go for it. But hopefully they don't repeat the same error of drafting for need that they did with Jimmer (the great complement to Tyreke) or WCS (the great compliment to Cousins). Some of the biggest failures of this organization over the last decade (and yes, I realize there is different management now) has been to use need as an excuse to draft a player and failing because of it. How many times do we have to see this faulty logic play itself out for us to realize that it just doesn't work?
) or WCS (the great compliment to Cousins). Some of the biggest failures of this organization over the last decade (and yes, I realize there is different management now) has been to use need as an excuse to draft a player and failing because of it. How many times do we have to see this faulty logic play itself out for us to realize that it just doesn't work?
At least Papa is good for a few hard fouls a game. When was last time anybody saw the Kings giving a hard foul?
I for one do not understand the discrepancy between how Joerger uses Skal and how he uses WCS. On the one hand with Skal we see a guy who obviously makes mistakes on the court (e.g. fouling 3 point shooters), but we also see him put out the effort. With WCS we see a guy who does not put out effort (and I believe he's still making mistakes). So why does Joerger play and start the guy who does not play with effort over the guy who plays with effort?
I for one do not understand the discrepancy between how Joerger uses Skal and how he uses WCS. On the one hand with Skal we see a guy who obviously makes mistakes on the court (e.g. fouling 3 point shooters), but we also see him put out the effort. With WCS we see a guy who does not put out effort (and I believe he's still making mistakes). So why does Joerger play and start the guy who does not play with effort over the guy who plays with effort?
It takes years to build a good team, years to develop and let players get to know to play with each, and yes we suck. What good will come out of this is that we will know who wants to be here next summer and is willing to go forward and buy into what we have.
We're getting a high draft pick this year and that is the best we can hope for with young players developing and learning the ropes of the NBA. We have alot of rookies and 2 year players.
We're getting a high draft pick this year and that is the best we can hope for with young players developing and learning the ropes of the NBA. We have alot of rookies and 2 year players.
Kings Fans have been incredibly patient. With the Kings its always about next year, about the next draft pick and so on. But when does the Future they are constantly selling us actually begin?
They tried to sell us a nee "culture". So far we have a whole bunch of guys giving less effort than Dmc on his worst days. It looks like they dont care.
Now once again its the next spin. Now we cant expect guys to play hard, because they are young.
Boston pretty much shipped out their entire veteran core and just outfought the biggest juggernaut team in the younger history of the league. They did it with 19 to 23 year olds playing major roles.
How is this possible, if we cant expect even full effort and toughness from the Kings young players?
I'm so sick of the excuses.
Nobody is expecting is to be a winning team, but as a fan I want to see fight, hustle and intensity and every Kings fan paying a little attention to the rest of the league, knows, that this is not, what are seeing from the Kings.
They tried to sell us a nee "culture". So far we have a whole bunch of guys giving less effort than Dmc on his worst days. It looks like they dont care.
Now once again its the next spin. Now we cant expect guys to play hard, because they are young.
Boston pretty much shipped out their entire veteran core and just outfought the biggest juggernaut team in the younger history of the league. They did it with 19 to 23 year olds playing major roles.
How is this possible, if we cant expect even full effort and toughness from the Kings young players?
I'm so sick of the excuses.
Nobody is expecting is to be a winning team, but as a fan I want to see fight, hustle and intensity and every Kings fan paying a little attention to the rest of the league, knows, that this is not, what are seeing from the Kings.
This is the season where decisions will have to be made on some players at season end, or perhaps at the trade deadline. Willie is projected, or at least was, to be our starting center of the future. We're going to have a high draft choice in the next draft. So it's important to know if he can be that guy or not. If not, then there are some players in the coming draft that would be able to fill that role. But if he can, then the team can look in another direction. So it's important to know the answer to that question. I know some of you out there have already made up your minds on this subject. Personally, I've always been a big Willie supporter, but I think its time for Willie to stop talking, and start producing. The Kings have a lot of time and money invested in Willie, so they need to make the right decision on him. The last thing they need, is to trade him to another team and then see him become what they hoped he could be.
In short, I think that's what Joerger is trying to accomplish. He's trying to give all the young guys enough court time, to either prove they're not worthy of it, or that they belong in the long term plans of the team. Of course by doing that, your going to be playing more players than you normally would, and as a result, performance suffers, and consistency goes out the window. However, that's no excuse for lack of effort. You can go down, but at least go down fighting. I'm waiting for one of the young players to stand up and say enough is enough. I'm waiting for one of them to grab the reigns and take over. I'm waiting for a star to emerge, and I'm sure Joerger is waiting for the same thing. He can't shoot the ball for them. He can't defend for them. What he can do though, is bench Hill the next time he walks the ball up the floor.
In short, I think that's what Joerger is trying to accomplish. He's trying to give all the young guys enough court time, to either prove they're not worthy of it, or that they belong in the long term plans of the team. Of course by doing that, your going to be playing more players than you normally would, and as a result, performance suffers, and consistency goes out the window. However, that's no excuse for lack of effort. You can go down, but at least go down fighting. I'm waiting for one of the young players to stand up and say enough is enough. I'm waiting for one of them to grab the reigns and take over. I'm waiting for a star to emerge, and I'm sure Joerger is waiting for the same thing. He can't shoot the ball for them. He can't defend for them. What he can do though, is bench Hill the next time he walks the ball up the floor.