Thornton playing the 3
- Thread starter K F Jay
- Start date
DesertFox
Starter
Should it be part of any sort of rotation? No.
If there is a matchup to exploit that far outweighs the size mismatches the Kings will face, then there is no reason not to go with it at times. It will be an easy lineup for other teams to counter anyway, so it shouldn't be often or for very long.
If there is a matchup to exploit that far outweighs the size mismatches the Kings will face, then there is no reason not to go with it at times. It will be an easy lineup for other teams to counter anyway, so it shouldn't be often or for very long.
With Keith Smart, having these types of discussions is pretty much wasted. Because the flaw is in thinking that Smart actually has a consistent approach to using players the same way each game. He actually changes his approach many times in a single game. As a player, that would frustrate them I would think.
SCKingsfan
Bench
There are things I can deal with regarding what Smart is doing at this point in the season, and there are things that I can't. Moving people around still to find a line up (or line-ups) that work, is acceptable to me as a temporary strategy at this point. Let people compete, display ability/inability to work together, etc., give it a few weeks unless it is clearly or consistently costing us games. THEN tighten the line up. I don't have my hackles up as much as others seem to over this strategy, at this point anyway. The practice of icing players who have the hot hand, keeping them out nearly a quarter at a time - that I just don't get. He's done it to Reke, to IT and to Cousins to some extent. Has to stop. Leaving a weaker or flailing team or set of match ups on the floor too long, also needs to stop, particular when we are up. How many times have you watched and said, 'ok, it's time to replace this line up with the starters; they've done a good job but now they are over-matched, the tide is turning (as it often does on 2nd teams) and they need to be replace with our best line.' THEN, 5 minutes later, the players are still in and the opponents have shaved 7-9 points off our our lead. I just don't know what the logic is there; it's not like these points of shift in momentum are that terribly hard to see. I don't know if he is blind or just has an alternative logic.
Last edited:
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Thornton is not a three at all, and its a major problem. But until the super smallball of last game, we have been gaining time with him coming off the bench. We can survive 10 min of Reke at SF while Thornton is alongside him a game. And with Smart showing a willingness to use a little Reke at PG a few games ago as well, we might be able to manufacture enough ways for the two guys to play together to allow us to get him decent minutes. If you play Reke 34, and you play MT 28, and MT plays every minute Reke is not on the floor, then you just have to manufacture ways to make Reke/MT together working for 14 min a game. That is possible. Now if you want to play MT 38 min a game or something, that's when it crosses the line into impractical and damaging as Reke has to spend half the game at SF every night to get out of the way.
I agree. Teams play 3 guard lineups from time to time for obvious team-advantage reasons. It happens. We won.
chief bromden
Starter
I share the exact same point-of-view as you. Maybe Smart's inability to substitute in accordance with the game or players' flow/momentum is one of his weaknesses as the head coach. Maybe this will improve through experience?
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
No, what he is talking about is Smart was throwing out some extreme smallball lineups, with Brooks, Jimmer AND Thornton all out there at the same time. Now short answer is that's pathetic and will get you ruined in the NBA. Its sad enough I'll switch sides for a bit and root for the other team to pummel the hell out of us if we do it consistently. But for last night, against a team with multiple combo guards and unproven players, we were able to survive. May not be accident though that it was our worst defensive game of the year. If Smart were actually smart, that could be ok. Use it against the Pistons who run a small guardline etc. But the problemn is he's kind of clueless and if something works in one situation he has a tendency too get overenthused and start playing it in stupid spots. If we use it against Miami we go down in historic fashion, and deserve to do so.
I'll defend Coach Smart a little bit. Normally I would say there's no excuse for the three and four guard lineups he's given us at times (especially in the fourth quarter). But the problem lies at the small forward position. Salmons is not available and Johnson is such a liability on offense right now that he has to throw three guards out there to be able to score points.
This is exactly why all the pundits have criticized how poorly our roster was constructed this season. Brooks, Thomas, Evans, Thornton, Jimmer -- that's five scoring guards who all need to get shots. On a more balanced roster that constitutes depth rather than a rotation problem but when our frontcourt features Hayes, Thompson, Johnson, and a struggling Robinson that means far too much of the offense has to come from our guards.
If we'd dumped the dead weight in the off-season (Outlaw, Cisco, Salmons) and found someone else to take their spot on the roster -- not to mention their $17 million in salary -- than we wouldn't be jamming every square peg we have into the same round hole. Trading for Johnson was a one year stopgap to avoid making a real decision. Seeing how well Batum and Lowry are playing for their respective teams right now is a sad reminder of how little separates a playoff team from a bottom-feeder in the NBA right now.
This is exactly why all the pundits have criticized how poorly our roster was constructed this season. Brooks, Thomas, Evans, Thornton, Jimmer -- that's five scoring guards who all need to get shots. On a more balanced roster that constitutes depth rather than a rotation problem but when our frontcourt features Hayes, Thompson, Johnson, and a struggling Robinson that means far too much of the offense has to come from our guards.
If we'd dumped the dead weight in the off-season (Outlaw, Cisco, Salmons) and found someone else to take their spot on the roster -- not to mention their $17 million in salary -- than we wouldn't be jamming every square peg we have into the same round hole. Trading for Johnson was a one year stopgap to avoid making a real decision. Seeing how well Batum and Lowry are playing for their respective teams right now is a sad reminder of how little separates a playoff team from a bottom-feeder in the NBA right now.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
I'm going to disagree on the roster causing the issue here. JJ has been pretty good defensively as a SF for us. He's definitely been good enough that we don't need to run a Jimmer/Brooks backcourt with MT at the 3 to cover for his poor production.
The problem with JJ at SF right now is that Smart seems to have told him his initials stand for Joe Johnson, and to attack every time he touches the ball. If he just told JJ to only take open shots when the ball is swung, to move the ball every time it's not a clear open look and to have him just concentrate on being a defensive role player, then all the sudden there's not much reason to play MT at SF.
And if Smart ran even a halfway decent halfcourt offense, we'd have plenty of scoring with or without JJ out there.
Last edited:
Rookie
Starter
I defended Smart last season but with JJ, there's really no reason not to play guys at their natural position, especially the 4th quarter and build that chemistry.
This is how I see it, I rather tighten up the defense with JJ than to lose a whole lot of D for decent improvement on offense (which can go cold at time).
This is how I see it, I rather tighten up the defense with JJ than to lose a whole lot of D for decent improvement on offense (which can go cold at time).
The other thing you have to take into account with Smart. He doesn't allow traditional descriptions of 1-PG, 2-SG, 3-SF, 4-PF & 5-C to make up a complete lineup. To him it's guards, forwards and a really big forward. And he can mix them and match them any way he wants. Four guards and Chuck Hayes is fine with him if he can get away with that lineup.
Bricklayer
Don't Make Me Use The Bat
Sigh.
This is not college. At this level people know how to play. And a great many of them are full grown and perfectlly able to ruin you if you are small and weak. Suffering from Jimmer myopia and thinking hey! He gets to play! Is not sufficient reason to hamstring an entire basketball team that needs to win games. Once in a blue moon. Against cherry picked opponents with small gaurds and weak or inexperienced SFs you can pull a stunt like that. No NBA team cna run it long or consistently.
You don't really know that much about basketball do you. 3 guard line ups can work until the other team has a chance to make substitutions.....if that long.
tyreeeke
Bench
Or until you win the game...
From what I've seen, I don't even want James Johnson taking open jumpshots anymore. Every time he's on the floor that's the lowest percentage shot we can get and a frighteningly large number of possessions seem to end that way. But alright, if you're saying Smart's offense as drawn up is asking players to do things which aren't really strengths for them than I totally agree. Johnson should be a last option in the offense when he's on the floor and there should be enough scoring around him to account for that.
I still think though, even if we had Rick Adelman drawing up our offensive sets the lack of production from the SF position would be a problem. And the desire to find significant minutes for all 5 of our guards is inevitably going to result in somebody playing out of position at SF.
SacTownKid
Hall of Famer
I think it's a matter of time before Reke is moved. The difference with this team when it has shooting is rather obvious. Thornton playing the 3 is a little gimmicky but shooting works when you have a big like Cousins. If they start running around like chickens with their heads cut off like Smart tried to do last year, the defense is gone anyway, might as well score I guess.
Just sad, I see very few reasons with the right coaching and system that Reke, Thornton, and Cousins can't be the core of the team.
Just sad, I see very few reasons with the right coaching and system that Reke, Thornton, and Cousins can't be the core of the team.
rainmaker
Hall of Famer
I mean, by no means am I saying JJ is the perfect SF. Not at all. But defensively in a clear cut role, he's plenty good enough to not go to this gimmicky small ball crap.
There was an interview recently with JJ where he said Smart was giving him all kinds of confidence. That's fine. I like confident players. But, then another interview came out in the past few days where Smart said he's giving JJ the freedom to attack like other attack minded wings, and he's just struggling because this freedom is new to him. I'd argue he doesn't need that freedom and Smart is giving too many players on general too much freedom. It's in the Bee if you care to look for it.
Then there's the aspect that every game thus far Smart has called up an iso for JJ out of a timeout. Every game. That's ridiculous. Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think JJ has been the slightest bit successful in any of those iso's for him out of timeouts. I don't think he's even drawn a foul, let alone score or set someone up. Smart is just asking him to do too much. But we see that with most players on this team. Everyone appears to have a green light, which never works.
jalfa
Starter
when has that ever happened in the NBA? consistently.
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
GOD NO!!!!!!!!! unless there is some miraculous situation where the other team is using a 6'3 SF then its ok
Would you rather roll Brooks-Jimmer-MT for 3-4 minute stints or Brooks-MT-Garca/Outlaw for 3-4 minute stints? It's certainly not a lineup that you can play for extended minutes, but I'd rather play that lineup than give Garcia or Outlaw minutes. At the very least, we have great shooting on the floor and a lot of speed which certainly can provide a spark for a short period of time at least until Salmons comes back
HereWeBoogie
Hall of Famer
^solid point. id rather have stevie wonder out there playin the 3 than Garcia
Similar threads
- Locked
- Poll
- Locked
- Poll
- Locked
- Poll
