This year's trades

[Warhawk]

Anyone but me more upset to see Doug (and Matt) go than Chris? I was hoping that Doug would retire as a King with Vlade.

I'm not saying either one was a better player or anything like that (obviously), but I thought both of those were the scrappy team-based players that made the Kings fun and exciting to watch - and Matt seems to have a lot of potential and worked his butt off. I just wasn't really upset at all about Chris being traded. I think the team plays better TEAM ball without him since his injury. That's no knock on Chris - I really appreciate all he did for the team, but sometimes it is time to move on. I think this is that time for Chris and the Kings....his contract and his health made him a very risky player to keep on the team.

I think (in the long run) the team will play better without a "superstar" like Chris demanding so many shots and spreading them among the rest of the guys. Mike, Brad, Peja, Cuttino, and the rest are all great players as well - offensively we'll be fine with more cutting and speed - look at last night's game - 113 points. Team defense has nowhere to go but up right now.

Hoping Peja can get his act together and return to the form he had early last year and the new guys can really contribute......

 

[bigbadred00]

Matt over Chris, are you kidding. He was with the team for 55 games, Webber has been with the team for 6 years. Maybe Doug, but Doug was overpaid and even later in his career and we got VALUE for him. So I wasn't as upset. Kings got highway robbed, or so it seems. Doug for some reason we got value for.

 

[DocHolliday]

I'm with the other guy. Chris getting traded didn't hurt me, it did sting a little bit too lose Matt. Chris was here for 6 or 7 years, but he doesn't have much upside anymore. He will degrade, and play less and less. I doubt he'll make it 3 more seasons. Barnes has tons of upside. But I look at it as we replaced him with Kenny. Kenny can probably score a little better than Matt and get good rebounds and have energy. Kenny is pretty athletic, and has a bit more experience with an extra year under his belt.

 

[bigbadred00]

Who needs upside when your doing what he was doing? Do KG and Tim Duncan have lots of upside? Nope, they are awesome right now and can't really get better. Webber can't get better but it doesn't mean he's not our best performer night in and night out. By the way, who has missed more games this year, Peja or Chris, I think it's Peja............. ;/

 

[Bricklayer]

We didn't replace Matt with Kenny Thomas. We replaced Webb with Kenny Thomas. We replaced Matt with Corliss. We replaced Bradley with Skinner. Given the type of contracts they carry I will be moderately surprised if any of them are still in a Kings uniform next year. This was almost certainly a two part trade -- trade for middling tradeable pawns, then cash in the pawns along with other players for people that can actually help.

 

[bigbadred00]

Upside means your below your potential, who cares about upside...upside is an excuse for being below potential.

 

[Bricklayer]

Upside means your below your potential, who cares about upside...upside is an excuse for being below potential.

Well, every young player is below his potential until he matures. Upside is a very good thing, unless people are still talking about your upside by the time you hit your late 20's and should already be in your prime.

 

[Warhawk]

Matt over Chris, are you kidding.

Please re-read what I said. I never said Matt or Doug were better players (obviously), I said that Chris was a risk and I never really felt that "attached" (for lack of a better word) to him as a Kings fan. He's got talent oozing out his ears and he's fun to watch, but I never really felt that he was 100% behind the Kings as a team player. I think he felt that he needed to be the #1 option every night (even when he was COLD and Bibby or Miller, etc. were lighting it up on the few touches they got) - especially since his injury.

Maybe Doug, but Doug was overpaid and even later in his career and we got VALUE for him.

True, and I really like Mobley.

Kings got highway robbed, or so it seems.

If that was the best offer we could get for him, was it really robbery or just his present value? I have to trust Petrie on this one....

 

[bigbadred00]

Yeah, Kwame Brown has great "Upside," so what. I want a finished product for this team. Barnes, I liked him, but why would I miss him more, we barely knew the guy. He was with the team for months not years. I was attached to Vlade gone, I was attached to Doug gone, now Chris, these are the guys who left that were big parts of the team and is why I miss them. I do miss guys like Jim Jackson, Pollard etc, but I miss the bigger pieces more.

 

[bigbadred00]

You said you were more upset, why are you upset to let a guy who was basically rented out for 5 months than a guy that was a big part of the team. That's the point I'm trying to make. Are you telling me the eye of the franchise was Matt Barnes? He was just a figment on the teams block. Webber is arguably the most visible player on the team, yes he had his problems, we knew about them when we resigned him for huge money, but he did perform.

I'm pretty sure there were Knick rumors for years, personally I'd rather have had Nazr, and Kurt or whatever instead of the guys we got, I guess these guys are easier to move but there contracts and what they leave us isn't any better. The only thing this brought is easier flexibility to make trades in the offseason. It's easier to trade Thomas and Peja for Something then to move Chris. I get that, we aren't thinking about winning right now, is that the direction I was dying to take. I'm already a 9er fan, rebuilding blows, this team had players in their prime. Yeah maybe we weren't going to win a title, why did this happen mid season instead of in the offseason? Would we not get the same deal this offseason. i don't think philly was dying to keep these guys. Why now? Were we that scared that Webber would get hurt again.

 

[bigbadred00]

Warhawk, do you realize other than Webber, our other top 4 players are in their prime. They aren't going to get much better? Are we looking to rebuild totally? Are we looking to go young? I thought we are still going to keep Bibby and Brad? They aren't getting any younger. Are we now going after Oden or something. Is that the direction. I hope not.

 

[DocHolliday]

We didn't replace Matt with Kenny Thomas. We replaced Webb with Kenny Thomas. We replaced Matt with Corliss. We replaced Bradley with Skinner. Given the type of contracts they carry I will be moderately surprised if any of them are still in a Kings uniform next year. This was almost certainly a two part trade -- trade for middling tradeable pawns, then cash in the pawns along with other players for people that can actually help.

NO what the techincal aspects of the trade were, I'm not talking in actuality when you look at it. They are the most similar in stats.

 

[Bricklayer]

Chris Webber was more than a visible player -- he was the greatest player in the history of the Sacto franchise, and the greatest player in the greatest era the franchise has had since the 1950s. When he left, so ended an era. A very good era. In a lot of ways goes beyond just Chris. It goes to the era that Chris represented when the little franchise that could finally was able to stand up and play with the big boys.

 

[DocHolliday]

Who needs upside when your doing what he was doing? Do KG and Tim Duncan have lots of upside? Nope, they are awesome right now and can't really get better. Webber can't get better but it doesn't mean he's not our best performer night in and night out. By the way, who has missed more games this year, Peja or Chris, I think it's Peja............. ;/

They can move good, and don't have bad ankles and a reconstructed knee. You can't compare those guys at all to Webber.

 

[DocHolliday]

Chris Webber was more than a visible player -- he was the greatest player in the history of the Sacto franchise, and the greatest player in the greatest era the franchise has had since the 1950s. When he left, so ended an era. A very good era. In a lot of ways goes beyond just Chris. It goes to the era that Chris represented when the little franchise that could finally was able to stand up and play with the big boys.

That I agree with.

 

[bigbadred00]

Oh, so they are going to defend guys like Dirk, TD, and KG, oh really. Go check out Thomas's stats versus those big name 4s in the league. I'll tell you he gets destroyed before you even look at them. Webber atleast played decent D on them even injured. He atleast canceled them out. Who cares if he had bad ankles and a reconstructed knee, he was our most effective player. You watched the Dallas game last night right? I know Songalia is our best post defender, arguably, and he was getting creamed too. I just don't understand the direction were going in.

 

[Trackfan]

The problem is, that in evaluating Webber (as well as this trade) a lot of people get confused between the Chris Webber that came here and the Chris Webber that left here …



The Chris Webber that came here was a young, athletic, power forward with small man skills … He was at his physical peak with upside in his future …



The Chris Webber that left here, was an older, un-athletic, power forward playing in the small forward lanes …



The Chris Webber that came here could run the floor, use his skills down low, and effectively work with a team that included a talented point guard, passing center, and dead eye small forward …



The Chris Webber that left here was having difficulty running the floor and playing back to back games … His current game was in competition with his small forward and shooting guards games … And his need to hold the ball rendered moot his passing centers skills …



Now, should the Webber that arrived been the Webber that left, equal value could have been commanded by the Kings and received … And in this case equal value would have been another power forward with skills like Amare Stoudamere … However, being the player he was when he left we were lucky to get a passable "power forward" at all given that he has not been playing a power forwards game …



People forget that Webber has NOT been an all star for 3 years now … His all star days are in his past … And while people talk about his ability to put down stat lines of "triple doubles" few discuss the fact that in most cases a Webber triple double has meant a Kings loss … Or the fact that most of his double doubles came at the expense of 7 for 25 type shooting nights - which in my book means that had someone like Brad or Mike or Cutino gotten 10 of those shots the team probably would have had 12 to 15 more points at the end of the game … Which means those games with questionable calls would never have come down to questionable calls …



Personally I think that Petrie did a great job … We got rid of Chris which means we have created more opportunity to make moves to benefit the team down the road … As dealing with 3 contracts totally 60 million is easier than dealing with 1 … Moving Chris also opened up the offense for THREE or FOUR other players … Peja, Mike, Brad, and Cutino will all almost assuredly have increases in their games, which should translate into easier winning opportunities for the Kings … The other thing that has gotten almost completely overlooked is that no matter how the new guys pan out, Songaila has already shown an ability to be a better than average power forward in this league … The Kings didn't need to receive a 20/10 man as long as someone like Darius and or Kenny can go 10/10 or 15/10 …



One final thing … Chris did NOT come here and turn this team around … Chris was PART of some additions that changed this team … Vlade was just as important in the turnaround if not more so, as was Jason Williams, Doug Christie, Mike Bibby and Peja … All were part of a process that turned things around for the Kings … Chris just happened to be the most visible - and usually for all the wrong reasons …



Anyway, that's my spin … I see no reason to cry over spilled milk - especially when it was already sour …

 

[bigbadred00]

He was an all-Star 2 years ago but injured for the break and peja replaced him if i remember correctly. last year he was gone all year and this he was the biggest snub on almost every list. Trackfan. The offense wasn't the problem this year we are putting up a TON of poitns. The problem is the defense. You guys keep looking at these players playing better offensively, who gives a crap if Peja, Mike, Brad and Cutino can put up more points. If they can't stop anyone it will all be for not.

 

[bigbadred00]

It doesn't matter if Peja and company's offensive numbers rise and they probally will. It matters that we win of course and that we play better defensively. If you win by 1 point or 10 it doesnt matter a W is a W. Until the last 9 games, the Mobley trade was a success, we were scoring 103 and giving up 98, then everyone got injured including Mobley, Chris and Peja and things went to the crapper. I think it's like 113 allowed and 108 scored.......the problem is still the D.

 

[skeletor8]

Good observation skills trackfan. Clearly Chris was holding the ball in a vain attempt to score 50 points every night. Clearly the offense was in fact supposed to be running through Greg Ostertag, but they forgot to put him in the game, and the other Kings got confused so they kept passing the ball to Chris in the high-post and making all those cuts to the basket. Clearly Chris was a terrible drain on the offense, as there are so many players in the league that average 20-10-5...Chris and KG and....well, surely there must be 20 or 30 others.

/end sarcasm

As for Chris not turning the franchise around....if that helps you sleep better at night to believe that, you go right ahead. He had some help along the way, but Webber made Sacramento into a contender, a status which they unfortunately gave up on Wed. night.

 

[bigbadred00]

Already sour? really 12 games over 500 is sour. we were 17 games over 500 2 weeks ago. you better learn what sour is. we were 3 games behind phx just 5 weeks ago. we were looking great, then injuries happened and effort lowered. if you take the last 3 weeks as a snapshot for season you obviously haven't been following the team for very long.

 

[Warhawk]

That I agree with.

Me too.

Again, Thank God Chris decided to play here and re-sign (although the price was a bit steep). I take nothing away from what he did and what he meant to this franchise. His jersey should hang in the rafters when the time comes. Yes, Matt was only here about 4 months, but I really liked what he brought and how he played. Just because Chris was here longer and was an All-Star doesn't mean I can't like what Matt brought, does it? Everyone talks about Jimmy J, but he wasn't here very long, either, was he?

Saying I liked the trade doesn't mean I don't like Chris or appreciate what he brought to the Kings. It just means I think it was time to move on from the Chris Webber days before he totally breaks down and we're paying him $20 mil a year to sit at home is all.

 

[Warhawk]

It doesn't matter if Peja and company's offensive numbers rise and they probally will. It matters that we win of course and that we play better defensively. If you win by 1 point or 10 it doesnt matter a W is a W. Until the last 9 games, the Mobley trade was a success, we were scoring 103 and giving up 98, then everyone got injured including Mobley, Chris and Peja and things went to the crapper. I think it's like 113 allowed and 108 scored.......the problem is still the D.

Very true, but isn't this (and rebounding) where the new guys might be able to help out the most? Chris can't move on D anymore. The value of this trade may not be evaluated until the end of the season, if that soon. If Webber breaks down in the next year or so, it was a good trade. Even playing as well as he was, he wasn't practicing and taking games off. He couldn't get back on D, often taking cheap fouls in the backcourt going for the strip on the ball because of his lack of mobility.

I am not bagging on him, he's just slowing down in some phases of his game and the Kings need to be able to run and play team D. Chris can't really do that as effectively anymore. Just a fact.

I wish the best for him and hope he helps Philly do well. I really do. I just think we managed to get out of his contract while the getting was good....

 

[Bricklayer]

Me too.

Again, Thank God Chris decided to play here and re-sign (although the price was a bit steep). I take nothing away from what he did and what he meant to this franchise. His jersey should hang in the rafters when the time comes. Yes, Matt was only here about 4 months, but I really liked what he brought and how he played. Just because Chris was here longer and was an All-Star doesn't mean I can't like what Matt brought, does it? Everyone talks about Jimmy J, but he wasn't here very long, either, was he?

Saying I liked the trade doesn't mean I don't like Chris or appreciate what he brought to the Kings. It just means I think it was time to move on from the Chris Webber days before he totally breaks down and we're paying him $20 mil a year to sit at home is all.

That's fair.

But moving him midyear before giving the guys one more shot, and moving him for three total journeymen... You can believe that moving Webb eventually was the prudent thing without believing that this deal, at this time, was a good thing.

 

[skeletor8]

And Chris is not the alpha and the omega of the Kings defensive woes (or rebounding for that matter) if that is what you are implying. There were at least three times last night where nobody stopped the ball on a fast break...just let the man dribble right down the middle of the lane and score. Let alone all of the penetration and wide-open layups and dunks given up in the zone last night. So unless all three of those guys can each guard their own man and someone else's, I'm not sure you're going to see the type of improvement that you anticipate.

 

[Warhawk]

That's fair.

But moving him midyear before giving the guys one more shot, and moving him for three total journeymen... You can believe that moving Webb eventually was the prudent thing without believing that this deal, at this time, was a good thing.

Very true. I have to think that Petrie and the rest of the Kings spent a lot of time considering Chris' condition and the team's play before making the move, and I am 99% sure that:

a) they got the best deal thay could, and
b) they felt that his health vs. long term contract ramifications if he reinjured it wasn't a good bet.

I also hope that, like Brad and Darius, the guys coming in can adapt to our system and play well here. That has yet to be determined, but I am willing to give them a little time and see how everyone can contribute before writing off what we got in return as just "3 journeymen". We've seen many instances where guys come in and thrive under "new management". There is also the chance that they will play as much as Greg does and get traded. Let's wait and see what happens and what we ultimaely end up with before we put Petrie on a spit and roast him. I trust his judgement.

 

[acisking]

Chris Webber was more than a visible player -- he was the greatest player in the history of the Sacto franchise, and the greatest player in the greatest era the franchise has had since the 1950s. When he left, so ended an era. A very good era. In a lot of ways goes beyond just Chris. It goes to the era that Chris represented when the little franchise that could finally was able to stand up and play with the big boys.

yea thas wat really saddens me

 

[PFFFT!!]

Personally Im fine with both trades. Im starting to cringe a bit when I see Mobley miss open looks like last night. But Im hopeful that the team will get better with youth and quickness. Webber was great offensively, but his leg literally shut him down defensively during 4th quarters. As far a DC is concerned, I would have loved to have him as a bench player, but his contract was too big to free up anything any free agent starter would want. My gripe is what we got in return for C-Webb, however, I could be wrong depending on how we do the rest of the season. Who knows, the whole team might click and everything we say or do regarding DC and Webber or Matt for that matter would be erased and history.

 

[G_M]

That's fair.

But moving him midyear before giving the guys one more shot, and moving him for three total journeymen... You can believe that moving Webb eventually was the prudent thing without believing that this deal, at this time, was a good thing.

Brick,

Do you think that one of Petrie's responsibilities to the organization is risk management? In that capacity isn't it prudent to move Webber's contract to any team wouldl take it? Realizing the available pool of teams that could take on that contract(either by coice or financial limitations) is VERY small, it seems wise to deal the contract now. Webber and his contract is a risky proposition. Maybe based on personnel it was less risky for Philly than it may have been for most teams. Also, realizing that Webber had a NO TRADE clasue and could veto a trade made the pool of available(and acceptable to Webb) teams even smaller.

I'm assuming Petrie, who was widely described as a genius before this trade, saw that the team was not going to win a championship this season. Unlike any championship team I've seen in recent memory the Kings showed me NOTHING to establish they could win a championship. Not one TRULY standout game when it counted. Countless collapses down the stretch of key games, porous defense and bad rebounding. Does limping into the playoffs or even surviving the first round with Webber constitute success?

Thomas, Williamson, amd Skinner may not help the Kings this year or even next. I just think Petries job of adding a player that can help becomes MUCH easier with Webb's contract off the books.

Just my opinion and really the only reason I can think of that Petrie would do this deal.

 

[love_them_kings]

Chris Webber was more than a visible player -- he was the greatest player in the history of the Sacto franchise, and the greatest player in the greatest era the franchise has had since the 1950s. When he left, so ended an era. A very good era. In a lot of ways goes beyond just Chris. It goes to the era that Chris represented when the little franchise that could finally was able to stand up and play with the big boys.

well said. In losing Webb we have lost more than an incredible player who puts 150% of his heart into the game. We have also undeniably seen the end of a piece of Kings history that was something special. We have seen this team rise from a small struggling team to one of the elite teams in the league who is always "This close" to a championship. I love the Kings, and I look forward to many, many more years of great playing, and hopefully a championship or two down the line, but I will never forget this era of basketball. This team will always have a special place in my heart, and so while I grieve over the loss of Webb I also grieve over the end of this era, and reluctantly let go of the hopes of someday seeing Webb's million dollar smile when the Kings, these Kings win the championship I've always felt they deserve.