This year could be the year.
- Thread starter NoBonus
- Start date
Yes, because we have always listened to Lakers fans in the past. 
Apparently only when they tell us what we want to hear?
In any case, Dallas, Phoenix, Denver, Houston -- all 4 teams play defense better than we do (and yes, if you've been paying attention to the league Dallas has taken huge strides and are now adding even more with Doug), rebound better than we do (Phoenix corrected that this summer), they all have interior shotblocking to win the war in the middle, they have the advantage of familiarity, and 3 of the 4 have superstar caliber players to lead them. Unless we implode we should be death to the bad teams out there -- overwhelm them on sheer talent barring Portland syndrome. But the playoffs are a different beastie. Mentioned at the very beginning of the thread that we have almost none of the traits that championship teams have always had.
And so maybe you should go ask your Laker buddies what they mean by a "good year". We SHOULD have a good year. Every chance to win 50+. And I suspect that's what they mean unless they are dim even for Laker fans. But a championship is something else entirely. Its amusing that somehow anyone who doesn't believe this tossed together collection of offensive specialists is going to win a title is "a pessimist". I think we got too used to rooting for a title around here such that now rooting for anything less has become inconceivable. But it is conceivable. Its where most teams reside most of the time. Its where we are now. Poised to have a good year, but not a championship year.
And by the way, people have made a TON of suggestions as to what that "one more move" should be. Go check the other threads. What is clear, is that whatever it should be it has to address our defensive weaknesses, particularly in the middle, if we want to have more than that "good" season.
Apparently only when they tell us what we want to hear?In any case, Dallas, Phoenix, Denver, Houston -- all 4 teams play defense better than we do (and yes, if you've been paying attention to the league Dallas has taken huge strides and are now adding even more with Doug), rebound better than we do (Phoenix corrected that this summer), they all have interior shotblocking to win the war in the middle, they have the advantage of familiarity, and 3 of the 4 have superstar caliber players to lead them. Unless we implode we should be death to the bad teams out there -- overwhelm them on sheer talent barring Portland syndrome. But the playoffs are a different beastie. Mentioned at the very beginning of the thread that we have almost none of the traits that championship teams have always had.
And so maybe you should go ask your Laker buddies what they mean by a "good year". We SHOULD have a good year. Every chance to win 50+. And I suspect that's what they mean unless they are dim even for Laker fans.
But a championship is something else entirely. Its amusing that somehow anyone who doesn't believe this tossed together collection of offensive specialists is going to win a title is "a pessimist". I think we got too used to rooting for a title around here such that now rooting for anything less has become inconceivable. But it is conceivable. Its where most teams reside most of the time. Its where we are now. Poised to have a good year, but not a championship year.And by the way, people have made a TON of suggestions as to what that "one more move" should be. Go check the other threads. What is clear, is that whatever it should be it has to address our defensive weaknesses, particularly in the middle, if we want to have more than that "good" season.
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Nope. Wasn't me. I said that while I would miss Vlade, I supported his decision to go back to LA. AND, for the record, I have NEVER given up on the Kings. I have been unhappy - VERY unhappy - about some of the personnel decisions, but I have never once given up on the TEAM.
I do criticize the organization for what I think are bad decisions. I do not think SAR is the answer to all the problems that some people seem to think he is, but those discussions were conducted while his status was still up in the air. He is now a Sacramento King and I will root as loudly as anyone else for him.
I have been very vocal about my criticism of Peja, but again - I have NEVER given up on the Kings. I've been a fan since the beginning; nothing that's happened to this franchise so far has made me stop and I don't see anything that could unless the team moved far away and I wasn't able to see any games, grew totally distant from them, etc. If you're confused, it's because you haven't been paying attention.
I do criticize the organization for what I think are bad decisions. I do not think SAR is the answer to all the problems that some people seem to think he is, but those discussions were conducted while his status was still up in the air. He is now a Sacramento King and I will root as loudly as anyone else for him.
I have been very vocal about my criticism of Peja, but again - I have NEVER given up on the Kings. I've been a fan since the beginning; nothing that's happened to this franchise so far has made me stop and I don't see anything that could unless the team moved far away and I wasn't able to see any games, grew totally distant from them, etc. If you're confused, it's because you haven't been paying attention.
you say other teams rebound better than we do??? WE DO. This team hasn't played a game together yet and already we can't rebound? Sure I agree that SAR isn't the best PF in the league not even top 10. But its not like we turned down KG for the mid level and took SAR. Lets say that one move was Miller and Peja for KG like i saw suggested. The we have Bibby BonzI and KG. Who esle do we have. Sure you can say throw in a Center like Skinner or somthing but, Minny has tried that and it failed as well. One Superstar doesn't do it anymore. Spurs had Ginobilli and Duncan. Or Detroit had an evenly talented team top to bottom. We are evenly talented and deep. The biggest difference in all the superstars that won championships in the past was they were healthy. Jordan, Shaq and Kobe, Wallace and Rip, Manu and Duncan. All these guys were healthy going in to the playoffs. Have we ever had that?
OK OK OK i don't care if you don't agree and say yes we have a chance. but at least say that you hope we do. Now it almost seems as if you hope we fail to prove your point to us. I see your side believe me i do. NO DEFESE, NO SHOTBLOCKING, NO SUPERSTAR. Quality is our key we have Quality players from top to bottom 2 deep in some places and that is good enough to get a championship. Will it? who knows but we have as much chance as San Antonio.
OK OK OK i don't care if you don't agree and say yes we have a chance. but at least say that you hope we do. Now it almost seems as if you hope we fail to prove your point to us. I see your side believe me i do. NO DEFESE, NO SHOTBLOCKING, NO SUPERSTAR. Quality is our key we have Quality players from top to bottom 2 deep in some places and that is good enough to get a championship. Will it? who knows but we have as much chance as San Antonio.
You are trying entirely too hard at this fan thing. You know it is actually possible to be realistic about your team and still be a fan. There is no reason to get all over the top just to feel like you've done your part or whatnot.
By the way, under your scenario our lineup ends up being Bibby, Bonzi, SAR, KG and Skinner. And that crew would kick the living crud out of our current team, and make them like it. KG/Latrell/Cassel = WCF team. So is KG/Bonzi/Bibby. Now try KG/SAR/Bonzi/Bibby and where does that land us? Right there with the big boys.
Championship teams share certain characteristics. We don't have those characteristics. Its not rocket science. We're always trying to "cheat" around here. That has never worked. Its like building a football team and only picking up wide receiver after wide receiver, and then saying well we have dominant receivers, we'll win. As for those other pesky details, well the receivers can just play both ways and drop down into a three point stance when we need to be guards or tackles, right?
By the way, under your scenario our lineup ends up being Bibby, Bonzi, SAR, KG and Skinner. And that crew would kick the living crud out of our current team, and make them like it. KG/Latrell/Cassel = WCF team. So is KG/Bonzi/Bibby. Now try KG/SAR/Bonzi/Bibby and where does that land us? Right there with the big boys.
Championship teams share certain characteristics. We don't have those characteristics. Its not rocket science. We're always trying to "cheat" around here. That has never worked. Its like building a football team and only picking up wide receiver after wide receiver, and then saying well we have dominant receivers, we'll win. As for those other pesky details, well the receivers can just play both ways and drop down into a three point stance when we need to be guards or tackles, right?
The only thing championship teams have in common is that each one is different than the last. There's no championship formula, or it would be pretty pointless to watch the playoffs. You don't really have to be a great defending team to win the championship, look at the Showtime Lakers. You don't have to be a great offensive team, look at the Pistons. Don't act like you know how championship teams MUST be built, because no one knows until the final buzzer of the last game of the season.
P.S. By the way, if you call Geoff Petrie's Kings "cheating," then you should at least acknowledge that the Kings almost "cheated" their way to a championship in 2002.
P.S. By the way, if you call Geoff Petrie's Kings "cheating," then you should at least acknowledge that the Kings almost "cheated" their way to a championship in 2002.
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Please don't attribute your at least pretended ignorance of how to win in the NBA to the rest of us. Thanks. Get a superstar, play some defense, hit those boards, win the wars in the paint, have experience, the rest is gravy. You can score or not. If you do -- great. Its the difference between garden variety champs and all time great teams. But the basics aren't negotiable. And again, its so ridiculous for THIS fanbase of all fanbases to be back to this old debate since we've seen the evidence with our own two eyes. We had the entire cycle play out right in front of us. From high scoring pretenders in our early years, to contenders at our peak as we added defense to the repertoire, and back to pretenders again as the defense (and the superstar for that matter) fell back off. Classic rise and fall.
As an aside -- it IS pretty pointless to watch the playoffs in most years. At least if you understand the league. In the NBA, more than any other major American sports league, the eventual winners and losers are almost inevitable. Almost. By the end we're down to the point where you occassionally get teams about evenly matched in their championship fitness, but you very rarely get a significant cinderella, and even when you do, they follow all or most of the tenets I listed above.
P.S. Would it surprise you to know that the Showtime Lakers were one of the better defensive teams during their era? Top 10 in defensive efficiency year after year? With a 7'2" shotblocking center, multiple defensive specialists, including their PFs and one of the better defenders of all time as a 6th man. I suspect it might.
As to your P.S. -- addressed it above. That team was balanced. It was like those old Showtime Lakers in that it scored, but had learned hard lessons and acquired enough defensive personnel to compete with the big boys. You can be bad offensively and win the title in a down year, you can NOT be bad defensively, no matter the offense.
As an aside -- it IS pretty pointless to watch the playoffs in most years. At least if you understand the league. In the NBA, more than any other major American sports league, the eventual winners and losers are almost inevitable. Almost. By the end we're down to the point where you occassionally get teams about evenly matched in their championship fitness, but you very rarely get a significant cinderella, and even when you do, they follow all or most of the tenets I listed above.
P.S. Would it surprise you to know that the Showtime Lakers were one of the better defensive teams during their era? Top 10 in defensive efficiency year after year? With a 7'2" shotblocking center, multiple defensive specialists, including their PFs and one of the better defenders of all time as a 6th man. I suspect it might.
As to your P.S. -- addressed it above. That team was balanced. It was like those old Showtime Lakers in that it scored, but had learned hard lessons and acquired enough defensive personnel to compete with the big boys. You can be bad offensively and win the title in a down year, you can NOT be bad defensively, no matter the offense.
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Wow, I can't believe how many times Manu Ginobili has been called a "superstar" on this thread. He even was just listen in the same breath as Shaq, Kobe, and Michael Jordan! This is outrageous. Ginobili is good, no doubt, but no where near a superstar. If a guy that has his best season with a measly 16 ppg can be called a superstar, then why isn't Mike Bibby a superstar? Why isn't why isn't Peja Stojakovic? (how easily we forget his MVP calibur 2004 season where, before CWebb came back, he was averaging 26 ppg)
I guess Manu did get it done in the playoffs, which is something Peja hasn't done. But Bibby has. I hate all the pessimist here going on about how we have no superstar. We do. Bibby will be a 20+ ppg scorer and near 10 assist man this year and will make the All-star team for his first time (after being snubbed way too many times).
Even still, a superstar isn't required to win a championship. Just ask Detroit.
The extreme pessimism around here is a tad annoying. I didn't come here to see a bunch of fanboys just yelling "YAY THE KINGZ WILL WHEN THE CHAMPIONSHIP 4 SURE!" but I didn't come here to just see them get put down after no one has seen a game they've played. Sure they aren't a front-runner, but like someone else said before, NO ONE IN THE WESTERN CONFERENCE HAS GOTTEN BETTER. No one. Except the Kings and maybe Dallas if Christie actually contributes.
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I guess Manu did get it done in the playoffs, which is something Peja hasn't done. But Bibby has. I hate all the pessimist here going on about how we have no superstar. We do. Bibby will be a 20+ ppg scorer and near 10 assist man this year and will make the All-star team for his first time (after being snubbed way too many times).
Even still, a superstar isn't required to win a championship. Just ask Detroit.
The extreme pessimism around here is a tad annoying. I didn't come here to see a bunch of fanboys just yelling "YAY THE KINGZ WILL WHEN THE CHAMPIONSHIP 4 SURE!" but I didn't come here to just see them get put down after no one has seen a game they've played. Sure they aren't a front-runner, but like someone else said before, NO ONE IN THE WESTERN CONFERENCE HAS GOTTEN BETTER. No one. Except the Kings and maybe Dallas if Christie actually contributes.
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You act like you have a formula for everything, but the fact is you (and I) have no more idea than anyone else what is going to happen in any given year, nor do you (and I) have any more idea than anyone else about what makes a championship team. Hindsight is really tremendous. But history does not necessarily predict the future. History would not have predicted the 2004 Pistons or the 1995 Rockets.
And to call the Showtime Lakers one of the better defensive teams of their era is a tad extreme. Yeah, they were consistently a top 5-10 defending team in a given year, but that doesn't exactly make them elite. And it might surprise YOU to know that the Lakers won their championships in 1987 and 1988 without a single player averaging more than 9 rebounds a game. Not exactly following your championship formula. These Lakers won because they overwhelmed teams offensively. Yes, it can be done.
And to call the Showtime Lakers one of the better defensive teams of their era is a tad extreme. Yeah, they were consistently a top 5-10 defending team in a given year, but that doesn't exactly make them elite. And it might surprise YOU to know that the Lakers won their championships in 1987 and 1988 without a single player averaging more than 9 rebounds a game. Not exactly following your championship formula. These Lakers won because they overwhelmed teams offensively. Yes, it can be done.
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Am I the only one here who finds this statement incredibly ironic?
Hello? Mr. Pot? I'd like you to meet Mr. Kettle...
Sorry, nbrans. Bricklayer never claimed to know everything, but he can certainly back up his opinions with fact and evidence to support them. AND, interestingly enough, he doesn't resort to insults unless they're thrown at him first...
For the record, there are certain things that ARE basic to championship teams. There may be the exception that proves the rule, so to speak, but some things are obivous... to virtually everyone.
Hello? Mr. Pot? I'd like you to meet Mr. Kettle...
Sorry, nbrans. Bricklayer never claimed to know everything, but he can certainly back up his opinions with fact and evidence to support them. AND, interestingly enough, he doesn't resort to insults unless they're thrown at him first...
For the record, there are certain things that ARE basic to championship teams. There may be the exception that proves the rule, so to speak, but some things are obivous... to virtually everyone.
Whatever. I won't resort to your level, sir.
You have made a point to argue with either myself or Bricklayer on a continuing basis since you first arrived on the board. I've grown tired of it. You feign ignorance of some things at times in what I suspect is simply a ploy to encourage more discussion. That's fine. Enjoy yourself.
You have made a point to argue with either myself or Bricklayer on a continuing basis since you first arrived on the board. I've grown tired of it. You feign ignorance of some things at times in what I suspect is simply a ploy to encourage more discussion. That's fine. Enjoy yourself.
And look, for the record, I'm not claiming to have a formula for the Kings or championships or anything. I'm merely saying that no one knows. I don't know, you don't know, Brick doesn't know, etc. I'm fine with people saying this or that thing is important to winning a championship, but I don't understand how people could say, flat out, no ambiguity, this Kings team won't win the championship. All I'm saying is that no one knows.
I find it ironic that you're saying that I go out of my way to argue with you since I haven't directed a post at you in over a month, and here you are going out of your way to argue with me in a public fashion. I only disagree with Bricklayer when I disagree with him, just like everyone else. I feel like you're singling me out, and I'm tired of THAT.
I went back and read your original post.
I found there is something I can agree with - I do think we have the pieces, if they fit together properly, to bring a lot of excitement back to Arco. If everyone clicks, we will be the darlings of the NBA because our team will, once again, be a lot of fun to watch.
I found there is something I can agree with - I do think we have the pieces, if they fit together properly, to bring a lot of excitement back to Arco. If everyone clicks, we will be the darlings of the NBA because our team will, once again, be a lot of fun to watch.
VF21 said:
I went back and read your original post.
I found there is something I can agree with - I do think we have the pieces, if they fit together properly, to bring a lot of excitement back to Arco. If everyone clicks, we will be the darlings of the NBA because our team will, once again, be a lot of fun to watch.
I found there is something I can agree with - I do think we have the pieces, if they fit together properly, to bring a lot of excitement back to Arco. If everyone clicks, we will be the darlings of the NBA because our team will, once again, be a lot of fun to watch.
whew...that got heated for awhile.
Look, there's two ways to look at any situation: optimistically and pessimistically. Ultimately, we're all fans here. I wish we could stop criticizing each other for fitting into one of those categories. Instead of saying "I'm sick of all of this pessimism", just stick to "I think Bonzi's ability to get into the lane adds an element we haven't had for awhile." Or, instead of saying "I hate all of this optimism...the Kings are going nowhere this year", stick to "I wish our weaknesses in rebounding and defense had been addressed this offseason." Then, and only then, will we have a truly enlightening discussion about KINGS BASKETBALL. You can discuss the merits and deficiencies of the team without criticizing the different ways we see things. We all WANT to see this team do well, even if we have different views on how we'll get there. THAT is why I come to this site...not because I want everyone to believe the way I do.
Look, there's two ways to look at any situation: optimistically and pessimistically. Ultimately, we're all fans here. I wish we could stop criticizing each other for fitting into one of those categories. Instead of saying "I'm sick of all of this pessimism", just stick to "I think Bonzi's ability to get into the lane adds an element we haven't had for awhile." Or, instead of saying "I hate all of this optimism...the Kings are going nowhere this year", stick to "I wish our weaknesses in rebounding and defense had been addressed this offseason." Then, and only then, will we have a truly enlightening discussion about KINGS BASKETBALL. You can discuss the merits and deficiencies of the team without criticizing the different ways we see things. We all WANT to see this team do well, even if we have different views on how we'll get there. THAT is why I come to this site...not because I want everyone to believe the way I do.
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D-Mass: It may have gotten heated, but it remained respectful.
People criticize on message boards. They criticize everything. In TDOS it gets even worse. We are extremely lucky that our membership, for the most part, manages to resolve any conflicts and survive - ready for the next time.
We have a lot of enlightening discussions. We have a lot of very passionate people who have strong feelings about this team we're all here to discuss. Don't worry. It's not as bad as it looks.
nbrans actually congratulated me on my 16,000 posts. We're done with our little spat.
People criticize on message boards. They criticize everything. In TDOS it gets even worse. We are extremely lucky that our membership, for the most part, manages to resolve any conflicts and survive - ready for the next time.
We have a lot of enlightening discussions. We have a lot of very passionate people who have strong feelings about this team we're all here to discuss. Don't worry. It's not as bad as it looks.
nbrans actually congratulated me on my 16,000 posts. We're done with our little spat.
Yeah...congrats on that, by the way. That's pretty impressive.
I didn't mean to imply that we don't have good conversations. They're great...that's why I keep coming back! I was just responding to general comments about pessimism. I admittedly can get that way sometimes, but it doesn't mean I'm any less of a fan. As much as I think this team will struggle in some areas, I can't wait for the season to begin!
GO KINGS!
I didn't mean to imply that we don't have good conversations. They're great...that's why I keep coming back! I was just responding to general comments about pessimism. I admittedly can get that way sometimes, but it doesn't mean I'm any less of a fan. As much as I think this team will struggle in some areas, I can't wait for the season to begin!
GO KINGS!