The Tyreke Evans Saga

Yes, that’s clear. What’s not clear, is what exactly about my opinion is wrong and why you think it’s wrong. If instead of posturing, you’d offer some insight into that, we could have discussed it rather than bicker like school kids. But it’s your call, I’m just following your queue.

I've been explaining it for you, but I guess the comprehension is still broken and you need me to explicitly label those statements for you. Because if the explanation doesn't directly follow the accusation, you're gonna miss it. Subtlety's not your thing, I guess. I'll go back and bold them for you.


pTranslation: I have no problems with any of the viewpoints that I agree with. Well...duh.

Alright, so we've at least established one thing clearly: your world is black and white, and my world allows for gray areas. You're of the thought that if I don't agree with something, that I have to disagree with it. In reality, even if I don't necessarily agree with someone's thoughts, I don't have to disagree with them either. Their thoughts can just be. I can acknowledge an opinion that is different from mine and can differentiate from other opinions that are wrong in my view. Not in your binary world, though. That is clear.


Yes, I get that you think it was wrong. If we’re to have any type of intelligent debate about it though, you need to offer some insight into why you think it’s wrong. A trained parrot can say “you’re wrong”.

I never claimed you were making the statement about anyone else. I can deal perfectly well with someone telling me I’m wrong. However, if they lack the articulation to say anything beyond “you’re wrong” I’m probably not going to take them that seriously.

Again, I did explain it for you, as I said at the beginning of this. I just wish I had the ability to draw arrows and diagram this out for you, since that seems to be the only way you'll be able to comprehend it. It's really a simple argument that I'm making, so don't worry, the bolded parts will be short.

Nice argumentum ad populum. I see you don’t limit yourself to just one logical fallacy.

Was just pointing out a fact. I was not stating that majority rules. I was just telling you to get the hint that your chances of being the wrong one here are much greater because very few people share your view. Am I suggesting that a minority view is a wrong view? No. I'm suggesting that your argument isn't gaining much of a foothold around here.


No I saw it, I just don’t agree that there’s anything reasoned about it.

Nope, you didn't see it, otherwise you wouldn't have missed it the first time and asked for said explanation. And of course you don't think there's anything reasoned about it. We wouldn't be arguing otherwise.


LOL. Wow. So, you have no issues with people thinking different than you unless you think that they’re wrong as well. So in other words, you’re ok with people thinking different than you if you think they’re right. But if you think they’re right, it’s odd they’d be thinking much differently than you.

This goes back to the earlier revelation that your world is shockingly binary. You think that if someone says something that is not in line with my own thoughts, that I'm going to have to think they're wrong. That is incredibly false. There is an in-between in my world. People can just be different. Don't be mistaken though -- I still definitely think you're wrong. Just you.


If you already knew that, you weren’t showing it. You said that I couldn’t make the distinction. So, I responded by clarifying that I don’t think there’s a distinction to be made. Not being able to make a distinction is different from there not being a distinction to be made...Still confused?

No, I was never confused. I used the words "black and white" to describe you the first time, but you couldn't comprehend it. At least you're upfront about it now, though. That's a good first step.

You call those gray areas, I call them excuses.

Yup, we've definitely established that.

And I’ll keep throwing it out, whenever its appropriate.


I’m beginning to see a pattern here. It goes. You’re wrong, that’s incorrect, etc. followed by...nothing. Unless you can cite specific instances where I used red herring incorrectly, articulate why it was incorrect, and provide an example of correct usage, you’re just blowing smoke.

That all depends on how one defines “appropriate context”. If you’re suggesting that I was implying that basketball is as important as the president’s job, well, that would be a strawman argument...Queues Dr. Spaceman saying that I don’t know what a strawman argument is.

I defined the appropriate context for you. I guess I have to make it clear that the context is going to be my opinion, but I did state it. You said that my President statement was a red herring, and I went on to explain to you how it was relevant. Because a red herring is an irrelevant statement thrown into an argument. The explanation you're looking for (which I'll label for you) starts with "The relevance of the President statement...," but you missed it because it wasn't clearly pointed out to you with the appropriate stickers and arrows. That was my bad. I assumed too much of your comprehension.

I wasn't "implying" anything. I was clearly stating that you're blowing this up way too big. I was not stating that you equate basketball with the presidency.

Introducing his personal life is another red herring. It has nothing to do with whether he had an obligation to inform his employers regarding something that was keeping him from performing up to par. Make excuses all you want, they don’t relieve him of that responsibility.

What?? How is his personal life irrelevant? That's what this is all about. Getting his personal life in order so he can play basketball well. Anything else is just being petty. Which I've been trying to tell you that you are. You're blowing his mistake out of proportion and drawing it out for too long. This was my main point to you the entire time. Clearly labeled for you this time, though.

This all comes down to you wanting to crucify him for his mistake (that I and others acknowledge was made) and not allowing for any slack. We're trying to cut him some slack. You equate that with giving excuses. We equate it with growing pains of a young man growing up in a man's world. We grant him the misstep. You don't. That's it. Move on.

I think it's perfectly fine to have arguments, but it becomes impossible when the person you're arguing with continually overlooks the real point of the whole thing. Your broken comprehension and chronic inability to connect the issues that I bring up and my explanations that follow make it just a bit too frustrating (but just a little. Not too much) to continue this, so I'm done with it. Nice life to you.
 
Do the Kings TRADE the greatest JUMP SHOOTER BALL HOGGING EMOTIONLESS player of all time? No, but the Kings will be making moves and Tyreke needs to get back into game mode and realize that off court problems needs to handled off the court and the on court is a whole different story. I know they cross paths and its hard to get something out of your head but he needs to get into JOB mode because thats what it is, a job.
 
I thought the last post, was gonna be your last? So much for convictions.

[I've been explaining it for you, but I guess the comprehension is still broken and you need me to explicitly label those statements for you. Because if the explanation doesn't directly follow the accusation, you're gonna miss it. Subtlety's not your thing, I guess. I'll go back and bold them for you.

You seem to be under the impression that you’ve been subtle. Priceless. You’ve said nothing that I haven’t followed. It’s just that, it doesn’t lead anywhere.

Alright, so we've at least established one thing clearly: your world is black and white, and my world allows for gray areas.

So, because someone takes a black and white approach to one issue, that means they must take a black and white approach to all issues? Chalk up another logical blunder for you. You’re on a roll.

You're of the thought that if I don't agree with something, that I have to disagree with it. In reality, even if I don't necessarily agree with someone's thoughts, I don't have to disagree with them either. Their thoughts can just be. I can acknowledge an opinion that is different from mine and can differentiate from other opinions that are wrong in my view. Not in your binary world, though. That is clear

You’re backpedaling. Before it was thinking someone was right, now it’s just “I can acknowledge an opinion that is different from mine and can differentiate from other opinions that are wrong in my view”.

Again, I did explain it for you, as I said at the beginning of this. I just wish I had the ability to draw arrows and diagram this out for you, since that seems to be the only way you'll be able to comprehend it. It's really a simple argument that I'm making, so don't worry, the bolded parts will be short.

Right. That you’d made attempts at explanations wasn’t what was in question. It’s the results.

Am I suggesting that a minority view is a wrong view? No.

Your own words say otherwise. “your chances of being the wrong one here are much greater because very few people share your view”.

Nope, you didn't see it, otherwise you wouldn't have missed it the first time and asked for said explanation. And of course you don't think there's anything reasoned about it. We wouldn't be arguing otherwise.

I didn’t miss it the first time, either. You not getting the type of responses you wanted doesn’t mean anything was missed.

You think that if someone says something that is not in line with my own thoughts, that I'm going to have to think they're wrong.

It would be odd if you think they’re right. Apparently you inhabit a world where people can be both right and wrong at the same time.

There is an in-between in my world. People can just be different.

We weren’t talking about whether people could be different or not. The issue, was more whether or not you think people with opposing views are right. Thinking someone is wrong isn’t tantamount to not respecting their right to have a different view.

No, I was never confused. I used the words "black and white" to describe you the first time, but you couldn't comprehend it. At least you're upfront about it now, though. That's a good first step.

I can’t imagine what you “think” I’m being up front about. I merely clarified that I don’t agree that this particular issues is a black and white one. That’s wholly different from not understanding your positioning it as one.

Because a red herring is an irrelevant statement thrown into an argument.

I see you’ve looked it up since we last spoke. Glad to see you know how to educate yourself. Now, the next step, is being able to recognize one when you see it. I don’t expect you to take the leap all at once though...baby steps.

The explanation you're looking for (which I'll label for you) starts with "The relevance of the President statement...," but you missed it because it wasn't clearly pointed out to you with the appropriate stickers and arrows. That was my bad. I assumed too much of your comprehension.

I wasn’t looking for an explanation on that, at all. And if I were, you’d be about the last person I’d ask for one. I fully understood what you “thought” was the relevance of the statement. Again, you aren’t half as complex as you seem to think.

I wasn't "implying" anything. I was clearly stating that you're blowing this up way too big. I was not stating that you equate basketball with the presidency.

Try and connect the dots here...if you can. Bringing up the presidency in the context you did, in response to what you thought was me blowing something out of proportion, can easily appear like an attempt to imply that I was blowing it out of proportion to the extent that it was consistent with the importance of the presidency.

What?? How is his personal life irrelevant?
It’s not irrelevant, in general. It’s irrelevant insofar as it relates to his obligations to inform his employers.

Which I've been trying to tell you that you are. You're blowing his mistake out of proportion and drawing it out for too long. This was my main point to you the entire time. Clearly labeled for you this time, though.

If stating that he acted irresponsibly is “blowing his mistakes out of proportion”. Then yes.

You don't. That's it. Move on.

Maybe you should practice what you preach there. To the best of my knowledge, there’s no gun to your head forcing you to reply to me.

but it becomes impossible when the person you're arguing with continually overlooks the real point of the whole thing. Your broken comprehension and chronic inability to connect the issues that I bring up and my explanations that follow make it just a bit too frustrating (but just a little. Not too much) to continue this, so I'm done with it. Nice life to you.

There’s that assumption that the problem is just that I don’t understand your argument. Because you’re so complicated, right? LOL. You’re a poster child for overinflated self assessment, my friend. You simply can’t handle the fact that I don’t agree insofar as what the “real point of the whole things is” so you kick and fuss like a toddler.
 
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Can you guys shut up? Your debate is off-topic and neither of you will concede, so stop. Go debate through PM's. I don't want to scroll throuigh 4 pages of 2 people attempting to show their superiority over the other. Get a room..... or go fight by the flag pole.
 
That's intersting timing given his performance today. If he made this announcement after the 4 point game I don't think anyone would have questioned it. But he's in a better position than anyone else to know if tonight's game was an abberation or the start of a new trend. If he wants to take 3-4 months off to put this foot thing behind him for good I would be okay with that. We want him back to playing well all of the time, not just once every 10 or 15 games.
 
This was posted in another thread, but it is very relevant to this one:

http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/12/28/tyreke-evans-considering-season-ending-foot-procedure/

Westphal's announcement was unexpected on all fronts, as even Evans' family members were unclear on what was troubling the 21-year-old.

"She kind of boosted my confidence. She was saying 'Play basketball the way you play.' She's known me longer than anybody. She knows what I can do. I said, 'You're right, I've just got to put everything in the past and go out there and play.' She told me I was playing like s**t and I just had to deal with it."

Sounds like Tyreke's mom thought he was making excuses.
 
It seems like a lot of people like to only bring up a player's age and experience in an everyday societal context when it's convenient for propping up a player they like. Lets get real here, the expectations and standards for people at particular ages in the real world, are not the same as they are in the NBA. You may not think that is fair, but tough ****, that's what happens when millions of dollars are in the balance and you're on the biggest stage in a profession that requires you to be young and athletic. Not only has the NBA always expected more out of young people than the rest of society, but it has even more so now, in the post-straight out of high school boom era. So whether you like the double standard or not, that's just the cold hard (and necessary) reality of the NBA basketball player. I'm sure there have been plenty of players that were following a very normal pace of maturity by society's standards, but were too immature for the NBA and they didn't live up to their expectations. That's not the NBA lacking compassion for these people, that's the NBA setting higher standards of maturity because that's what the NBA requires in order to be successful. The NBA is the cream of the crop, and if you're immature by its standards, then you're going to have to balance it out with a lot of talent in order to stick around.

As far as Tyreke goes, it does seem awfully convenient that vague "personal problems" are surfacing at this point. That's not to say that they can't be real, but I have no reason to be any less suspicious of the timing than I would of a player who wasn't on the Kings. Lets be honest, at some point we've all rolled our eyes at a struggling player hint at "personal problems" or some kind of nagging injury. Lets not pretend we always give struggling players the benefit of the doubt out of compassion. Sometimes we just do it in one instance and not another simply out of favoritism. I have no reason to think Evans is above making excuses to cover up for the fact that maybe it's his ego that is really hurting, it's not an uncommon thing when it comes to basketball players. Again, I'm not saying that's necessarily the case, I'm saying I have no reason to disregard it as a plausible explanation for what's really going on.

I hope him failing to improve so far this year is really because of temporary circumstances like personal problems and/or health problems, but there's a side of me that also expected a lack of progression, to a degree. I think Evans' stat-driven rookie year was a bit of fool's gold. He was given the ball on a crappy team and was told, "go," and while many of us gawked at his stats, I saw a player putting up stats because he was being completely catered to in every way. While it did prove he had great one-on-one ability, it didn't prove that his style of play was fit for a team offense that is conducive to winning. I hope I'm wrong, but Tyreke's game is based on dribbling the ball, a lot, and the problem with that is it stops ball movement and causes your teammates to just stand around and wait for a kick out. Now, it's obvious that it's early on in Evans' career and a lot of things can change in time, but considering he has really poor shot mechanics, he isn't all that athletic or explosive without the ball, he plays below the rim, and he doesn't seem to have great instincts when it comes to decision making, I don't know if he's going to be a great enough scorer or passer to justify how much he needs to pound the ball. I hope I'm wrong, but this has always been my concern about him, even back before the draft, and his recent play hasn't quelled my skepticism of his style of play.

As good of an individual player that he already is, I don't know if he can live up to the level of franchise player on a contending team. And that's what this franchise is depending on him to be.
 
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It seems like a lot of people like to only bring up a player's age and experience in an everyday societal context when it's convenient for propping up a player they like. Lets get real here, the expectations and standards for people at particular ages in the real world, are not the same as they are in the NBA. You may not think that is fair, but tough ****, that's what happens when millions of dollars are in the balance and you're on the biggest stage in a profession that requires you to be young and athletic. Not only has the NBA always expected more out of young people than the rest of society, but it has even more so now, in the post-straight out of high school boom era. So whether you like the double standard or not, that's just the cold hard (and necessary) reality of the NBA basketball player. I'm sure there have been plenty of players that were following a very normal pace of maturity by society's standards, but were too immature for the NBA and they didn't live up to their expectations. That's not the NBA lacking compassion for these people, that's the NBA setting higher standards of maturity because that's what the NBA requires in order to be successful. The NBA is the cream of the crop, and if you're immature by its standards, then you're going to have to balance it out with a lot of talent in order to stick around.

As far as Tyreke goes, it does seem awfully convenient that vague "personal problems" are surfacing at this point. That's not to say that they can't be real, but I have no reason to be any less suspicious of the timing than I would of a player who wasn't on the Kings. Lets be honest, at some point we've all rolled our eyes at a struggling player hint at "personal problems" or some kind of nagging injury. Lets not pretend we always give struggling players the benefit of the doubt out of compassion. Sometimes we just do it in one instance and not another simply out of favoritism. I have no reason to think Evans is above making excuses to cover up for the fact that maybe it's his ego that is really hurting, it's not an uncommon thing when it comes to basketball players. Again, I'm not saying that's necessarily the case, I'm saying I have no reason to disregard it as a plausible explanation for what's really going on.

I hope him failing to improve so far this year is really because of temporary circumstances like personal problems and/or health problems, but there's a side of me that also expected a lack of progression, to a degree. I think Evans' stat-driven rookie year was a bit of fool's gold. He was given the ball on a crappy team and was told, "go," and while many of us gawked at his stats, I saw a player putting up stats because he was being completely catered to in every way. While it did prove he had great one-on-one ability, it didn't prove that his style of play was fit for a team offense that is conducive to winning. I hope I'm wrong, but Tyreke's game is based on dribbling the ball, a lot, and the problem with that is it stops ball movement and causes your teammates to just stand around and wait for a kick out. Now, it's obvious that it's early on in Evans' career and a lot of things can change in time, but considering he has really poor shot mechanics, he isn't all that athletic or explosive without the ball, he plays below the rim, and he doesn't seem to have great instincts when it comes to decision making, I don't know if he's going to be a great enough scorer or passer to justify how much he needs to pound the ball. I hope I'm wrong, but this has always been my concern about him, even back before the draft, and his recent play hasn't quelled my skepticism of his style of play.

As good of an individual player that he already is, I don't know if he can live up to the level of franchise player on a contending team. And that's what this franchise is depending on him to be.

Excellent analysis! To go on that, after seeing Tyreke's game last night, I got to thinking that maybe his future role should follow the model of Paul Pierce's current role on the Celtics - the guy who can do anything but doesn't have to do everything every night. A dominant scorer who can also fill voids in other areas like playmaking and rebounding when other players are injured or underperforming, but is not the primary option in these areas on a nightly basis. I think that's a role he could grow into pretty nicely, while not being forced to be our next Kobe/LeBron, which honestly I don't think is a good model for him, both in terms of his basketball skills and his mental make-up. If Cousins pans out (and I think he will), one of Omri/Donte/JT/Whiteside pans out, and we get our hands on a very good PG (oh yea, and a new coach), then this team could finally be on the right path again.
 
This was posted in another thread, but it is very relevant to this one:

http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/12/28/tyreke-evans-considering-season-ending-foot-procedure/






Sounds like Tyreke's mom thought he was making excuses.

In momspeak, albeit paraphrased by the son.

But that article also hints at some other stuff, namely that Evans is as private a person as his demeanor would suggest, and is about the last person who would bring any of this stuff up, even to his own family. this is about as far from the Twitter/posse of hangers on personalities as you could get. The downside is that he may have been fighting through something here that really would not have seemed so huge if he had been more open about it -- at least that's certainly what this past game post-mama talk would suggest. And of course it also tells us that whatever has been bothering him does not involve his immediate family. Still much maturing/gaining of strength to do.
 
Can we assume that part of the reason that Tyreke is feeling like **** because he was playing like ****? That's some of what I was able to glean from the article. His mom pretty much said, deal with the fact that you're playing like **** and work through it.

It's like when an A student gets his first C (or worse) in college. He doesn't know how to deal with it. Am I in the right school? Did I choose the right class? I think there's some of this going on, and looking for an injury might be a crutch. When has Tyreke ever had to struggle on the court for this extended amount of time?

As good of an individual player that he already is, I don't know if he can live up to the level of franchise player on a contending team. And that's what this franchise is depending on him to be.

And I don't know that he can't. There is some sort of maturation that needs to happen still, but I think DeMarcus' improvement will certainly ease some of the burden off of Tyreke, which will allow him to operate a little more freely. If the offense becomes stagnant, they can work through Cousins - it doesn't always have to be Tyreke off the dribble, which seemed to help a little in yesterday's game, anyway.

Finally, good on Garcia for his off the court leadership here.
 
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With DMC rise as a post presence and Tyreke playing so badly makes me regret the notion that we traded away such a great shooter in K-Mart who would provide that perimeter scoring the team desperately lacks. And thinking that this trade was for a player that is a 5th wheel for this team nowadays...
 
I think this all comes down to confidence. Notice two of his biggest games came after he said F it im going to play my game and after he had the talk with his mom. This is a guy that has dominated at every level and is finally playing against players and teams that challenge him. That can be a real shocker to someone who has had it easy his entire basketball career. He will get thru this...watch out when he does.
 
I think once Demarcus starts to become the leader of the team Rekes game will return to form. It was too much pressure for Reke to lead this team.
Once we get a PG Reke will be able to go back to scoring mode aswell, not this passive crap.
 
With DMC rise as a post presence and Tyreke playing so badly makes me regret the notion that we traded away such a great shooter in K-Mart who would provide that perimeter scoring the team desperately lacks. And thinking that this trade was for a player that is a 5th wheel for this team nowadays...

Dear lord, still hung up on the freaking Kevin Martin trade?

What else? Do you still regret trading away a SG like Mitch because he would have been great with Vlade passing the ball to him? Regret picking Peja rather than Dirk?
 
With DMC rise as a post presence and Tyreke playing so badly makes me regret the notion that we traded away such a great shooter in K-Mart who would provide that perimeter scoring the team desperately lacks. And thinking that this trade was for a player that is a 5th wheel for this team nowadays...
Dear lord, still hung up on the freaking Kevin Martin trade?

What else? Do you still regret trading away a SG like Mitch because he would have been great with Vlade passing the ball to him? Regret picking Peja rather than Dirk?

Huh? When did we ever have a shot at Nowitzki?
 
A very nice all around performance by Reke tonight. But I can't get too excited because he's been doing this all season, he will give you a good game or two in a row and then give you 5 or 6 bad ones and leave you scratching your head in disbelief. I guess we just have to take the good with the bad this season and hope everything starts clicking again either after All-star weekend or if he has his "procedure".
 
Slight misremembering -- we took JWill instead of Dirk (and Pierce), not Peja. We took Peja over Nash and Jermaine O'Neal though. And Travis Knight.

Nelly snuck one from Milwaukie. Wasn't he traded for Tractor Traylor, among other minor pieces.
 
Yahoosports reporting Evans will decline to play in the rookie soph game to rest his foot.
 
You guys think Casspi has a chance making it btw? assuming Derozen is a lockin to start the 3 though I think he doesn't... maybe cause they lack size since practicly every solid pick is a PG :D
 
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